CU Junior Arrested For Comments About Virginia Tech Gunman

zerotime - for your post, you may wish to look into the definitions of a threat and a euphemism.

an indication of something impending
threat

the substitution of an agreeable or inoffensive expression for one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant
euphemism

scooler1 - "...While we have no history on this individual, I feel, in light of the VT events, the CU staff took appropriate measures..."

What ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty". That's part of being here in America, whether you like it or not. If you have no history, or precedence of this individual, how can you "assume" these actions to be right?

For the second half of your post, I don't think anyone has suggested that nothing be done about the behaviors of this person. I do believe it has been suggested on numerous occasions that something should have been done... like provide him the "mental heath" help that he obviously deserves and needs. We should count ourselves very lucky that this individual has spoken up, "requesting" help, before something does happen.

As with the individual that acted in the VT shootings... as evidence is coming more readily available... that person "cried for help" and he was ignored. Those are the ones you should be pissed at... not me.

This man (or anyone else for that matter) has the right... a freedom of speech. Of which this individual has obviously exercised, speeking clearly... asking for help. Not asking to be jailed for his "imbalance".

Originally posted by Muaddib

No, you stand up to the bully...you don't commit murder.

Well killing is obviously taking it to the furthest extent, but I've seen people whose lives were completely destroyed by chronic bullying, and I wouldn't blame them for taking the life of their tormentors.

No offense, but that's one of the stupidest comments i have heard/read in a while...

If someone is bullying you, stand up to them, use your wits. If the bully attacks you defend yourself, after a while either he will stop bullying you and move on to easier target, or you will learn to defend yourself.

The only reason anyone should kill a bully is if the bully is trying to kill you.

I disagree. It's a rough world and violence is sometimes necessary.

Bullies and "tough guy" types need to be taught a lesson, or failing that, eliminated. Sorry but it's not a real pretty world out there.

[edit on 4/19/07 by xmotex]

Intersting topic. We brought this up in my Police Practices and Problems class this morning. Our campus police at Western Carolina University, according to our chief, who is also my professor for that class, are modeled after VT's. And also according to him, have one of the best campus police departments in the country. Saying the police could have done more is complete crap!!!! VT, I know is a university, but it also has around 30k students, its a small city for petes sake. You are never ready for those situatoins no matter how much equipment you have, or training for your officers, and you can pretty much bank on those campus PD's not having enough manpower. Its an unpredictable situation, in which there is little they can do about. If someone really wants to go into a public place and start killing people, how can you really stop them if you dont know its going to happen?

Ok, I'm done there. Are you sure there wasnt something else he did, maybe he was being publicly disorderly or something of the sort? Or maybe they needed to question him due to his comments? You want to try to avoid copy-cat incidents, and you have to check into those statements no matter if its a joke or if it appears serious.

Originally posted by absente
welcome to the "American Dream ... eh Nightmare" ..

Can you not see that after an event like this, any kind of statement like the one made should be investigated. There are people who will copy-cat out there, those who relate to the killer they "get to know" on TV and decide to join the cause. You cant predict these things, but any lead you get, whether it be a sarcastic remark or not need to be looked into. It was the CU administration that had the student arrested, probably out of the fact that they dont want things like that going without recourse. It makes the administration look bad, but most importantly would show them to be incompetent, and indifferent about the well being of the student body.

Originally posted by xmotex


If more people would shoot the local bully, there'd be a lot fewer bullies around.
IMHO killing someone who is bullying you is self defense.


hahahaha
come on man you can't be serious. I don't know what to say. I'd like to tell you "kill yourself" but there's a mood in the US in which you can't be against the majority of well-thinking people. Maybe this Korean guy was a mentally ill guy and the trouble he went through these last years led him towards this mess. Maybe he created his own world, and just decided to put an end to it.
Anyway, who the f are we to judge him? Of course i can't be ok with what he did, but the problem is the way we see "sanity" and "insanity" , especially in your country. You think medications and all that stuff can keep people ok AND you sell guns like candies. I don't forget the shrinks who bust their asses in institutions trying to cure these people, but there is somethnig to be done regarding mental health. How many crazy people bought a 9mm today , hmm ? Think about that. Understand the pain instead of locking it 23 hours a day and you'll maybe understand.

I tried to use the "quote" thing and i forgot someting. Just to say the two first sentences are not mine !!!
the rest is , anyway...
Peace to the victims' souls.

Originally posted by Infoholic
What ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty". That's part of being here in America, whether you like it or not. If you have no history, or precedence of this individual, how can you "assume" these actions to be right?


This man (or anyone else for that matter) has the right... a freedom of speech. Of which this individual has obviously exercised, speeking clearly... asking for help. Not asking to be jailed for his "imbalance".

So you would feel better if he was arrested after he killed someone?

What about threats against the president or other officials? Do I have the freedom to say that "I want to bomb the white house or kill the president for all my problems?" Can I do this without any repercussions because I have the freedom of speech?

And I don't think telling people that he wanted to kill people because of the lights in the classroom is "asking for help." It is a sign that there might be a problem with his thought processes and that some type of action is warrented. Were they excessive in what they did? Maybe, but in light of the VT events I feel that they acted appropriately. Taking a line from "The Wrath of Kahn," Spock says "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

[edit on 19-4-2007 by scooler1]

Originally posted by Matt_Mulder
come on man you can't be serious. I don't know what to say.

I'm not even sure what your reply has to do with my post.

And yeah, I'm completely serious.

I would also like to say how screwed up this country is when it comes to mental health. Everyday there are fewer and fewer resources and facilities for those with psychiatric problems. This country is so brainwashed into thinking that if they just take a pill everything will be alright. I recently read an article that stated that about 80% of all hospital patients had some sort of psych problem in addition to whatever brought them in in the first place. That right there tells me that there are a lot of people running around here with psych issues.

I hope that this CU student gets the help he needs, if indeed he has mental problems. Unfortunately, due to subjective aspect of mental illness, it probably won't be enough.

Hi Muaddib.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Have you thought that some of the over reactions of the last situation might have lead to where things are?

Just like in this case, they arrested some college kid for saying what he feels, because those around him received it as a threat. Now he is going to be marked for life, and probably monitored and picked on. Placed on some list to be monitored. There over-reaction could well lead this kick to become targeted and perceived as a threat, causing people to treat him like a threat, or a nut job, or the next school shooter, till low and behold prophesy fulfilled.


In the case of the last guy, apparently after he wrote the oh so shocking school plays he was sent for psychological evaluation.
youtube.com...

The link above is to the shocking school plays. Has no one in that class read Stephen King. He has written way more disturbing stuff.



Hi xmotex.

The idea is not to shoot the local bully, but to put the blame on the locally bully for creating hostile climates that could lead to another columbine. I bet if more people put the blame on the bullies, instead of going along with the bullies, we would see less of these tragedies.



Hi niteboy82.

Your situation is a really good example of what I am talking about. Now what if you have been ostrasised as the troubled next school shooter, instead of the suicidal troubled kid? They could have screwed you up to the point, where you might have taken violent actions. I am just glad you got out, and lived to tell the tale of highschool.


Hi Muaddib.

The only reason anyone should kill a bully is if the bully is trying to kill you

The bully does kill these people. They kill their souls one comment at a time, till these people forget their humanity, become disconnected and then you have rip conditions for the actions we saw this week. We have to understand that words are like sharp little knives, one stab at a time, no one bleeds externally, but they die a little bit inside with each hit, till there is nothing left of them and that barrier that humanity that might have prevented something like this from happening is gone.


Hi Vinadetta.

The fear does control our lives. The media should be ticked for trying to scare us, and then brainwashing us about what to think every-time one of these situations happens.

I do think it is over paranoia. I also think that they are over reacting to some things, and then sending everyone into a stupid frenzy, which they are taking out and acting out on others.

I live your avatar. Good movie.


HI Infoholic.

Arrested on suspicion. Welcome to the new police state everyone. Remember think nice thoughts, think nice thoughts.


HI zerotime.

Yep his comment must mean he has a screw loose, you nailed it on the head. Let's take him out of school, lock him up in an institution and never ask why he would say that or feel that way. In our new society, it's think nice thought, speak no evil, hear no evil and if you do report it.

I feel really sorry for society, because we don't see that our actions are often what cause such situations.


Hi scooler1

And what if by taking these extreme measures they create the same problem? Then what? No one would feel the least bit responsible is what. Because you are no longer taught personal responsibility as a society.


Hi xmotex.

Be careful what you say, your post might be construed or perceived as threatening and in the new police state you might get dragged in for questioning. I am only half joking. Today offline or online, you have to be careful with what you say, and even write.

Just by showing humanity and saying you understood or would not blame this kid for what he did, you could be putting yourself in danger, and this is what the society has come down to.

If more people had empathy and understanding in society today, I think we would have less tragedies.

Originally posted by Infoholic
zerotime - for your post, you may wish to look into the definitions of a threat and a euphemism.

an indication of something impending
threat

I looked it up. The problem is that you only picked the definition that you wanted to put down. There were more options available for the word "threat." Why didn’t you list the other ones?

1 : an expression of intention to inflict evil, injury, or damage
Cho said, "I am mad enough to kill my classmates."

That fits the definition of a threat - expression of intention to inflict evil, injury, or damage.

This kid sat in a classroom and let the entire class know that he was mad enough to kill them all over something that has nothing to do with him. At that point anyone around this person, (students, teachers, etc) should have taken this as a serious threat or at least a serious warning sign. No?

IMO this guy is probably a borderline case. He could be a very troubled person who needs help or like I said before just some guy who wanted some attention. Either way, he got both.




[edit on 19-4-2007 by zerotime]

scooler1:

Absolutely not. I would feel better if his problems were addressed before it came to that. Hence, he needed to be helped psychologically before everyone jumps off the deep in a paranoid reaction in light of current events. That seems to be the answer these days, which was my point in the opening post... arrest first, ask questions later. This is not a police state where people will automatically be arrested for "thought crimes".

Again, look at my last post with the differences between euphemisms and threats. There is a difference. The "euphemism" is a way of relating to something else, whether or not it offends. Certainly you won't get away with making "direct threats" to the White House, the President, or anyone else for that matter, and in this case the individual in question is being incarcerated for stating a euphemism, not a threat.

Saying "I want to kill people *for whatever reason*" is not a direct threat to anyone. You are correct, it was a sign. Did they act excessively? Sure did. They acted on paranoia. There was nothing rational about the reaction to this persons statement. It is most definitely a "cry for help".

Quoting Spock?... I'm dumbfounded.

Quoting the founding fathers of America:

Children should be educated and instructed in the principles of freedom. -John Adams

zerotime:

I posted the pertinent definition due to the statements made by the individual. Back to the article, here's what he had said... according to the official police report.

Karson said he was "angry about all kinds of things, from the fluorescent light bulbs to the unpainted walls, and it made him angry enough to kill people," multiple witnesses told police, according to a police report.
source

He did not say: "I'm going to kill you." for which that would have been a threat, and a direct threat to boot. He said: "I'm angry enough to kill." which is not a threat, nor a direct threat, nor an indirect threat to anyone. That was a euphemism.

Here's an example of a threat, for the definition given: an expression of intention to inflict evil, injury, or damage.... "I'm going to kick your ass." "I'm going to shoot everyone."

Here's an example of a euphemism, for the definition given: the substitution of an agreeable or inoffensive expression for one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant.... "I'm so mad I could spit nails." "I'm so mad I could kill."

This individuals statement was not comforting to say the least, and that has never been an issue with anyone discussing it. But, not in the least, was his comment as officially reported by the police or eyewitness, a threatening comment.

This article, as reported, is a completely paranoid reaction to previous events. We cannot simply walk around, infringing on someone's rights simply because we're paranoid about the actions of one.

Originally posted by scooler1

Imagine if this kid was not removed and did the same thing and your child, relative, or friend was killed. Wouldn't you be pissed if you found out after the fact that numerous faculty and students heard him making threats but did nothing?

I agree with you scooler, but you see, some people only blame the police for not taking action after an event has occurred and at the same time will blame the police and authorities for taking actions before anything happens...

"Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery." - Malcolm X

Infoholic, I do see what you are saying. It isn't that I don't understand your viewpoint. I think the charges in this case are probably a bit excessive - more of a knee jerk reaction. On the other hand, I would say better safe than sorry, because it always seems like after one of these events happens other disturbed kids start doing copy-cat murders. If I had to guess I would say these charges will probably be dropped if the kid goes to some kind of counseling or therapy, but we’ll see what happens.

[edit on 19-4-2007 by zerotime]

I agree this cas was an excessive knee jerk reaction. Being better safe than sorry is a great ideal, however that is not the way provided in this nation. We are innocent until proven guilty.

IMO, the copy-cat murders, etc. are cause by a lack of involvement by today's society. There has come to be way too much apathy... at least until it is too late. That has to stop. But it has to be stopped the right way, not in a means of paranoid reactions.

I honestly do hope the charges are dropped... of which he's only been charged (according to the police report in the original article "interfering with staff, faculty or students of an educational institution") with enciting a riot (of which no riot ensued).

I agree whole heartedly that therapy is desperately needed.

I'm not sure why CO seems to be the hotbed for crazy kids that want to kill their classmates but here is another one.

www.9news.com...

BOULDER - The University of Colorado Police Department arrested a male student Thursday night after finding an array weapons in his dorm room.

12-guage shotgun, several hundred rounds of ammunition, magazine clips for weapons and a 12 inch knife.

Originally posted by zerotime
I'm not sure why CO seems to be the hotbed for crazy kids that want to kill their classmates but here is another one.

www.9news.com...

BOULDER - The University of Colorado Police Department arrested a male student Thursday night after finding an array weapons in his dorm room.

12-guage shotgun, several hundred rounds of ammunition, magazine clips for weapons and a 12 inch knife.

THis is crazyness. I actually go to CU, and know the kid in this article. He went to my high school but this is the first time I've heard of this. HAHA i used to play football with this kid when I was like 12. Unbelieveable.

As for the kid who said stuff in class. All i can tell you is what I heard from this girl in my sociology class. She said the kid isnt an outcast, but that he did like to say random stuff all the time. She said he crossed the line on this one, which i totally agree with.

Well I think that the solution to human control will be the one that our own president was trying to bring a while back. . .

Get everybody tested for mental health and start getting our children mandatory medications as early as possible if their parents show any signs of mental disturbances . . .

That out to make sure that everybody will be covered and taken care off .

Max Karson was arrested on suspicion of interference with staff because he made comments about understanding how someone could kill 32 people,Karson said he was angry about all kinds of things from the fluorescent light bulbs to the unpainted walls, and it made him angry enough to kill people,multiple witnesses told police, according to a report.
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Katie
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