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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Budski, I think that the difference between your mindset and the mindset of myself and the general populace in the United States is that you may trust the powers that be a bit more than many here do. I have got to be honest, I don't trust the government at all, whether it falls under Republican or Democrat leadership matters little to me. I don't trust them, period.
For someone to try and take my gun away, which is honestly the only thing that I believe defends the populace, they will have to do it over spilt blodd. I am not making any threats or anything else, I am just stating a fact. I think that if it weren't for an armed populace here in the United States, we would have been a police state years ago.
Originally posted by budski
Is it not reasonable to assume that the drafters of the document could have no conception of the world NOW, and that it is time that the document was re-visited, with a view to bringing it up to date as happens with many constitutional documents?
nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
Originally posted by budski
Is it not reasonable to assume that the drafters of the document could have no conception of the world NOW, and that it is time that the document was re-visited, with a view to bringing it up to date as happens with many constitutional documents?
Where we have to be very careful is when the 'bringing up to date' restricts personal freedoms.
For example, recently here in the US a law was passed that eliminates the right of Habeas Corpus for a selected group of prisoners. Recognition of this right is over 800 years old, and is one of the most basic of human rights. And it has been severely weakened.
And the US Attorney general, in his defense of this weakening, said something to the effect that the term Habeas Corpus is not found in the US Constitution. And he is right. But the Constitution does say:
nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
Source
which is exactly what Habeas Corpus is all about - due process.
This is one example of why we have to be very very careful when we review Constitutional principles with the potential consequence of limiting freedom.
Originally posted by budski
Benevolent Heretic,
I have done the research,
but what you continue to do is to cherrypick parts of an argument that be refuted easily -
Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Let me tell you why "guns don't kill." I can lay a gun on a coffee table, a loaded one mind you, and it can lay there for years and never harm anyone. Then one day, some knuckle head comes along and picks it up and blam!! Now, do you blame the gun or the one in possession of it? I personally blame the one in possession, not the gun.
Originally posted by budski
IGive me an example of a foreign power that is ready to invade america anytime soon.
Give me an example where it has been shown that gun control does not work (at least to a large degree.
Give me an example where it is necessary to own a semi-auto type weapon
Originally posted by semperfortis
"If we make guns illegal, there wont be any more crime and we can all skip through the daisies"
I bet if we make guns illegal, the criminals wont dare get one... Wait a minute..... They are criminals.. HMMMMMM... So they obviously don't care about the law, what is going to make them care about this one?
Absolutely Amazing
Semper
"Both the oligarch and Tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of arms."
- Aristotle
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular tro."
- Noah Webster
"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
- James Madison, The Federalist Papers
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But if you decide to truly deny ignorance and try to prove yourself wrong by investigating BOTH sides of the issue, instead of just trying to support your opinion, you may be surprised at what you come up with.
Originally posted by budski
Firstly, let me say that I am saddened and appalled by what occurred yesterday.
However, the fact remains, that if guns were not so freely available, then this sort of crime would happen less frequently.
To say that guns don't kill people, people kill people is a fallacy.
To say that a gun is a tool, same as a hammer or a knife, is a fallacy.
A hammer or a knife, is not made for the express purpose of firing a high velocity projectile at another living thing. Yes, you can kill a person with a hammer or knife, but can you kill over 30 in a crowded area? I think not.
U.S. gun enthusiasts will bleat about the right to bear arms etc written in the constitution, but I believe that this is out-moded, and that people have guns because they WANT them - and they want them because they believe in an obsolete expression of freedom - oh, and to shoot things.
Here in the U.K. after the massacres at Hungerford and Dunblane, tough new laws were brought in - these mass shooting crimes have not happened since.
I uphold an individuals right to protect himself, but not at the expense of society as a whole, where it has become a kind of arms race.
www.neahin.org...
www.ojp.usdoj.gov...
Some figures show a decrease in violent and gun crime, however I would argue that this has more to do with zero tolerance policies than anything else.
The fact remains that if guns are so freely available, then there will always be crimes of this nature.
The rise of gun crime in Britain is drug-related and has more to do with the Labour party being unable to settle on proper policing methods and political correctness gone mad. Yes we see gang related shootings and stabbings, but it has been many years since we witnessed this kind of massacre - and that has to do with military type weapons not being available generally.
Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
BH, to be fair we are all guilty of propping up our own opinions. I know for a fact I am. So...
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Forgive me if that sounds harsh. I don't mean it to be.
I know people will say that gun control doesn't work, but how can you know until it's been tried?