Chimps more 'evolved' than humans....

Chimps More Evolved Than Humans

By Jeanna Bryner
LiveScience Staff Writer
posted: 17 April 2007
09:36 am ET


Since the human-chimp split about 6 million years ago, chimpanzee genes can be said to have evolved more than human genes, a new study suggests.

The results, detailed online this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, contradict the conventional wisdom that humans are the result of a high degree of genetic selection, evidenced by our relatively large brains, cognitive abilities and bi-pedalism.

Jianzhi Zhang of the University of Michigan and his colleagues analyzed strings of DNA from nearly 14,000 protein-coding genes shared by chimps and humans. They looked for differences gene by gene and whether they caused changes in the generated proteins.

Genes act as instructions that organisms use to make proteins and thus are integral to carrying out biological functions, such as transporting oxygen to the body’s cells. Different versions of the same gene are called alleles.

Changes in DNA that affect the making of proteins are considered functional changes, while “silent” changes do not affect the proteins. “If we see an excess of functional changes (compared to silent changes) the inference is these functional changes occurred because they were positively selected, because they were useful in some way to the organism,” said study team member Margaret Bakewell, also of UM.

Bakewell, Zhang and a colleague found that substantially more genes in chimps evolved in ways that were beneficial than was the case with human genes.

www.livescience.com...

They suggest it could be due to the population bottlenecks we've suffered in the past.

I, for one, will welcome our new chimp overlords...

Hopefully they'll be of the Bonobo ilk.

Nowhere in the article does it suggest that chimps are more evolved than humans. It simply states that more genes evloved over a same period of time due to varying factors:

"Bakewell, Zhang and a colleague found that substantially more genes in chimps evolved in ways that were beneficial than was the case with human genes."

This does not suggest chimps are more evolved than humans, rather that they have undergone more genetic changes than humans over time. Humans remain far superior to chimps and anyone would agree that humans are much more "evolved" than our monkey ancestors.

I still think aliens edited our genetics at some point in the past.

Originally posted by Vipassana
Nowhere in the article does it suggest that chimps are more evolved than humans.

This does not suggest chimps are more evolved than humans, rather that they have undergone more genetic changes than humans over time. Humans remain far superior to chimps and anyone would agree that humans are much more "evolved" than our monkey ancestors.

More evolved doesn't mean more intelligent.

perhaps it is evidence of an alien species playing around with our DNA a few times along human evolution...

Originally posted by Vipassana
Nowhere in the article does it suggest that chimps are more evolved than humans. It simply states that more genes evloved over a same period of time due to varying factors:

In the scientific article, maybe. But the news article does.

You should also note I said 'evolved' in quotes, because it could be assesed in numerous ways, most rather arbitrary. But, I think having a greater number of beneficial changes to genes is one of many ways to do so.

Being able to make advanced technology would be another.

Generally I thought what sets us apart from chimps is the ability to think about thinking.

Originally posted by Vipassana
Generally I thought what sets us apart from chimps is the ability to think about thinking.

The mind of a chimp is pretty hard to get inside. They seem to possess at least rudimentary consciousness. It's quite a controversial area. Maybe they do develop a theory of mind.

But, yeah, we have much better cognitive abilities. We're still to see whether a frontal lobe and an opposable thumb is of real long-term evolutionary benefit.

But what you're doing is like a dolphin saying (OK, go with me, heh): 'humans do not possess biological sonar, therefore we are far superior'. You're measuring one aspect of animal ability, that which we possess in abundance and claiming this to be the evolutionary apex.

We can measure who's most 'evolved' in numerous ways. The authors of this paper used one method, a fairly good one I think, seeing evolution is about descent with modification. Chimps have had the greater extent of modification as measured by beneficial genetic changes. Whereas we have had fewer, but have had more effective changes.

I don't think there is any likelihood of a 'planet of the apes' scenario, so don't worry...

[edit on 17-4-2007 by melatonin]

The archeological evidence suggests that Homo sapien (the street variety) appeared suddenly about 150,000 years ago. Numerous translated clay tablet in Iraque tell us that we were a species genetically engineered by a superior race at about that time. See the thread
www.abovetopsecret.com...'
Somehow modern man replaced the Neandrathal relatively recently. Where actually we came from is a good question but our mitochondrial DNA can be traced back to one male and female and not that long ago. I'm going to guess the chimp has been around on earth a lot longer than we have!

[edit on 17-4-2007 by plumranch]

Originally posted by plumranch
...our mitochondrial DNA can be traced back to one male and female and not that long ago.

No it can't. Mitochondria in humans are obtained from the maternal parent, and the maternal parent only. It can be traced back to one woman from which all humans alive today have received their mitochondria, this is true. She was not, however, the first female human.

[edit on 17/4/2007 by Thousand]

melatonin

Hopefully they'll be of the Bonobo ilk.

How true
good find thanks!

hey they recognise themselves -they have been proven to be able to communicate and create new "words" in sign... amazing.

Plan for gain
speak (in sign)
form long term and adaptive relationships
Learn and remember from observation only, of the skill and not "doing" or "repetition" then incorporating that and becoming proficient in the skill (this is much above many humans!!)
present past and future awareness
etc..

Well if anyone is in any doubt about the intelligence and ability of our hairy brothers they should check this out really good audio

BBC This is Brilliant - Chimps All You Need To Know Documentary (audio)

Well infact I believe the most highly evolved especially Emotional Intelligence of the primates (including us) are the Bonobos... there is loads of great info here:
ATS Bonobos

There is also lots of good posts on this and some fantastic really interesting information and posts by mods on evolution, which really is the driver of humans development so its certainly evolution in a sense, here

Evolution ATS

and also dolphins intelligence is without a doubt here on my dolphin links in this Thread, some great stuff here from others too:

Dolphins Use Tools

Great subject... its very subjective as we measure evolution from our ideas.... however intelligence and evolution may be a bad tool with mankind it could kill us all too, the Nuclear bombs that "intelligence" gave us. I dare say the chimps violent as they can be
(though unlike man they have never been observed[ as is actually happening to humans in the Sudan now!] committing genocide or total annihilation of another troop of chimps)
would look at us and think we were mad or sick... maybe with research as is shown in the links above soon a chimp might understand what we have done. At that moment you could argue that if his initial reaction was one of total rejection of it and the idea..of not being exited or wanting one for power....well maybe then Chimps will be more evolved than us.

The bonobo would try and shag the Nuke to submission

regards

Elf

Edit for lack of pre planning and evolution...how many times have I had to edit posts...not even learning by repition...ever get that fellow humans?

[edit on 17-4-2007 by MischeviousElf]

It can be traced back to one woman from which all humans alive today have received their mitochondria, this is true. She was not, however, the first female human.

Hi Thousand, Thanks for your coment, you are right about the mitochondrial DNA relating to the female (Eve in this case). Where do you suppose our Eve came from?

Chromosomal Adam and mitochondrial Eve have both been dated back to the same time around 200,000 years ago.....Quoted from chapter 5 of "Slave Species of god" by Michael Tellinger

Apparently both the chromosomal and the mitochondrial DNA can be dated back to find the aproximate origin. I find this 200,000 year date for both the male and female human to be very interesting indeed. Like maybe we didn't "evolve" from those silly apes after all! The question then is where DID we come from and that is when most scientists go into denial.

There are a couple thousand "Adam and Eves" in our mitochondrial and Y-chromosome DNA - We suffered a big extinction event when the Nile shifted from its pan-Saharan course, to its current course. the Saharan human population went kaput, leaving only the sub-Saharan group and a northeast African group - It's from the latter that the vast majority of people on earth are descended from, as they spread into Asia, Europe, and the Americas.

And there's no such thing as "more evolved" or "less evolved". Evolution is not a linear process towards a common goal. That's just a human conceit, us thinking we're the pinnacle of evolution. Rather, there are simple and complex organisms - an earthworm is "simple", but when it comes to traveling beneath the soil, they're infinitely more evolved than humans...

By walkingfox

There are a couple thousand "Adam and Eves" in our mitochondrial and Y-chromosome DNA - We suffered a big extinction event when the Nile shifted from its pan-Saharan course, to its current course. the Saharan human population went kaput, leaving only the sub-Saharan group and a northeast African group - It's from the latter that the vast majority of people on earth are descended from, as they spread into Asia, Europe, and the Americas.

This is interesting. Where could I read more about this? Thanks!

Originally posted by plumranch
Hi Thousand, Thanks for your coment, you are right about the mitochondrial DNA relating to the female (Eve in this case). Where do you suppose our Eve came from?

This particular Eve came from the same place everyone else has: her parents.

Originally posted by plumranch

Chromosomal Adam and mitochondrial Eve have both been dated back to the same time around 200,000 years ago.....Quoted from chapter 5 of "Slave Species of god" by Michael Tellinger

Apparently both the chromosomal and the mitochondrial DNA can be dated back to find the aproximate origin. I find this 200,000 year date for both the male and female human to be very interesting indeed. Like maybe we didn't "evolve" from those silly apes after all! The question then is where DID we come from and that is when most scientists go into denial.

The 200,000 year figure is, as far as I can tell, totally fabricated by a man who's intent is not to educate but to sell books. As accurately as modern science will allow us to discern, Mitochondrial Eve predated Y Chromosomal Adam by roughly 80,000 years, and neither we alive anywhere near 200,000 years ago. Both were only one of many humans alive at their respective times as well; the names Adam and Eve are really only metaphorical, and even then only at the genetic level.

from Thousand...
Mitochondrial Eve predated Y Chromosomal Adam by roughly 80,000 years, and neither we alive anywhere near 200,000 years ago.

Hi Thousand,
So when do your sources date the start of the mitochondrial and chromosomal DNA? What are your sources? How can one explain the difference of 80,000 years? If they weren' alive 200,000 years ago, when were they alive?

Originally posted by DarkSide
More evolved doesn't mean more intelligent.

Chimps are the only other species that has been observed participating in murder. Oh .. and chimps have prostitution too. female chimps will even barter over the price of sexual relations.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
We suffered a big extinction event when .....

Also the last time Yellowstone blew. The TV was saying that almost all of humanity got wiped out when Yellowstone blew. Only a few thousand, perhaps 10 thousand, of us were left on planet earth. Mostly in a certain area of Africa.

[edit on 4/20/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by melatonin
I, for one, will welcome our new chimp overlords...

Just couldnt resist thinking about that.

[edit on 21-4-2007 by LuDaCrIs]

[edit on 21-4-2007 by LuDaCrIs]

Originally posted by plumranch
Hi Thousand,
So when do your sources date the start of the mitochondrial and chromosomal DNA? What are your sources? How can one explain the difference of 80,000 years? If they weren' alive 200,000 years ago, when were they alive?

I think the main confusion here is using the terms Adam and Eve at all. Though it is a great metaphor for what is actually happening, those two names are far too culturally loaded to be used in a scientific manner.

The person known as Y Chromosomal Adam was not the first male human, nor is he the exclusive ancestor of all male humans alive today. What he is is the most recent Y Chromosome bottleneck in human ancestry. His Y Chromosome, or echoes thereof, can be found in every living male human today. In a way, he is the "direct ancestor" of all contemporary males, but only in that one small aspect. He is the most recent male to have achieved an unbroken line of male descendants all the way into the modern era. In doing so, these descendants have spread his Y Chromosome across the planet. He wasn't the only male human alive, nor was he the first. He was just lucky.

The person known as Mitochondrial Eve is similar. Y Chromosomes are obtained from an organism's father, as female organisms lack them by definition. Mitochondria are obtained (in humans) from the mother, though this is not universal in all creatures. In the case of Eve, we have the same situation, in that her Mitochondria have been passed on through genetic inheritance to all humans alive today. It is important to note that Mitochondrial DNA is totally separate from human DNA and is passed on in a different manner. This brings me to my next point.

The origins of the Mitochondrion found in the cells of animals is generally accepted to have been due to a symbiotic fusion of two separate life forms in the early history of life. Early Mitochondria were bacteria that were absorbed by complex cells but for whatever reason not consumed and destroyed. Instead, they have adapted and become specialized parts of the host cell, where they perform energy conversion. Plants have a similar symbiotic relationship with structures called Chloroplasts, which have similar origins and functions in plant cells and are a vital part of photosynthesis.

Because of the very early integration of Mitochondria into complex cells, their date of origin is basically unknowable. I myself haven't found a date or even an era in the searching I've done (though admittedly brief), however I would imagine it being in the billions-year ago range. We have more luck with Y Chromosomes however, as they are a fairly recent development and exist only in mammals. Due to their slow and steady rate of mutation making an easily measured timeline it's thought that the Y Chromosome first appeared around 300 Million years ago. This massive split in time of origin and the fact that the two systems in question are not related at all goes a long way to explaining why this Adam and this Eve did not exist at the same time, or even remotely similar ones, and why they didn't have to.

What comes into play here is the cultural perception of what Adam and Eve are. Those two names are ingrained in most of us with very solid meanings that are very easily transposed onto whatever those names are then used with. In the case of the two humans in question here, the names were used to imply that they were partial genetic ancestors of every human alive today, not that they were the ancestors of every human alive today. Unfortunately, the immediate conclusion most make on hearing those names is that the subjects are the be-all and end-all of human history. This isn't the case. I hope I've cleared up some confusion.

Y Chromosomal Adam was thought to have lived between 60000 to 90000 years ago, and Mitochondrial Eve is placed around 140000 years ago. Both were thought to have lived in Africa. My apologies for not stating that beforehand. As far as my sources go, they're mostly just myself. I've read a lot about this. For a lot of fact-checking and name lookups, though, I use Wikipedia.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Chimps are the only other species that has been observed participating in murder. Oh .. and chimps have prostitution too. female chimps will even barter over the price of sexual relations.

I know. I never said chimpanzee's were not intelligent, but people equate "evolved" with "intelligent" or "sophisticated", ie : humans are the most evolved, etc.