Eurofighter vs F-22

Everybody raves about the stealthiness of the F-22 Raptor but from what i've been reading what really sets the two planes apart is the avianoics and the ability of the F-22 to engage targets beyond visual range and kill them before it is even seen. Maybe i'm wrong and it really is to do with teh stealthiness but bah.

Anyways, so if the avionics is what really sets the two planes apart then is it possible for the avionics of the eurofighter to be updated that it can match that of the F-22 and so level out the playing field. Is it that simple or is it basically an integral part of the design of the plane that isn't just a matter of software etc.

Also i'm wondering if there has been any simulations (like red flag) involving Eurofighters and the F-22 or other aircraft. I'm curious as to how the Eurofighter performs when faced with other aircraft.

The Typhoon (not 'the Eurofighter', or I'll start calling the F-22 'the Lockheed' ) already has systems that match those of the F-22, in fact with DVI and Pirate it has some that are better so no upgrade is necessary. The F-22's advantage lies with its physical capabilities rather than its avionics.

The only simulation I am aware of was the one performed by DERA several years ago and this is now out of date as every single plane involved has been developed to varying degrees since then.

[edit on 17-4-2007 by waynos]

It's several things that set them apart. The F-22 is supposed to be capable of the Mach 1.7 range without afterburners, where the Typhoon is supposed to be in the Mach 1.2 range. The F-22 has thrust vectoring that the Typhoon doesn't. It has an AESA radar that the Typhoon won't get until later.

3/22/2005 - WASHINGTON -- The Air Force chief of staff added to his 5,000-plus flying hours with familiarization flights in both the F/A-22 Raptor and the Eurofighter aircraft.

Gen. John P. Jumper said the Eurofighter is both agile and sophisticated, but is still difficult to compare to the F/A-22 Raptor. He is the only person to have flown both aircraft.

"They are different kinds of airplanes to start with," the general said. "It's like asking us to compare a NASCAR car with a Formula 1 car. They are both exciting in different ways, but they are designed for different levels of performance."

The Raptor is the latest addition to the Air Force combat aircraft inventory. The Eurofighter is a combat fighter aircraft designed and produced as a joint effort by several European countries.

Despite being designed for different missions, General Jumper said the Eurofighter and the Raptor are equally high-tech aircraft.

www.af.mil...

So why does the F-22 do so well in BVR combat then?

Well one reason is the fact that it has the AESA radar set that the Typhoon doesn't. The other is that's the MISSION it was designed to do.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
It's several things that set them apart. The F-22 is supposed to be capable of the Mach 1.7 range without afterburners, where the Typhoon is supposed to be in the Mach 1.2 range.

Eads has confirmed Mach 1.5 capability actually - it has been mentioned on here before

The F-22 has thrust vectoring that the Typhoon doesn't.

The Eurofighter is a Highly Agile Fighter and is a lot smaller than the F-22 - it remains to be seen just how more agile, if at all, the F-22 is. A thrust vectoring system has been developed for the Eurofighter, but many dont see the added benefit of the extra weight such a system would require as the Eurofighter is extremely agile as it stands at the moment.

It has an AESA radar that the Typhoon won't get until later.

Eurofighter has CAPTOR which is one of the most advanced radars available at the moment, and CAESAR will be phased in with tranche 2 as planned.

People keep pitting the Eurofighter against the F-22 when the comparison is pointless - they were designed off the back of different requirements and will never (touch wood) go up against each other.

With that in mind, is there anything really in the world that can defeat either comfortably?

Would the Eurofighter actually benefit at all from the upgrades it would need to 'beat' the F-22 in what is essentially 'fan boy top trumps'? In my opinion, no, it would be a total waste of money.

Well here is a good measure of meanuverability: Wing loading. The lower the loading, the higher the maneuverability.

F-22s wing loading is 66lb/square foot.

Typhoons wing loading is 63.7lb/square foot.

The Typhoon is more manueverable not counting thrust vectoring. That makes the F-22 actually more maneuverable.

The F-22 is also more AGILE (different than maneuverable) due to enormous thrust and a fantastic thrust to weight ratio.

The F-22s radar is powerful enough to focus it into a narrow beam and blow enemy sensors.

The F-22s radar is bigger, AESA, more powerful, longer range, and LPI.

The F-22 has a frontal RCS of a small insect.

The F-22 has use of the AIM-9X High Off-Boresight missile and the AIM-120D. Thats like carrying both a sniper rifle and a shotgun. A shotgun who's bullets can turn around and pull 100G and hit something behind you.

The F-22 has threat identification capability and MINI-AWACS capability.

The F-22 has software to see who is shooting at who and direct people to all fire at different targets.

The F-22 can supercruise with a full weapons load hundreds of knots faster than the eurofighter can without any weapons.

So would the U-2 beat them both in a dogfight?

The Typhoon has beat 2x F-15E in WVR mock combat. At the start, the eagles were on his tail. In the case of the F-22 scenario, the Typhoon is most likely dust until either a) it's radars are upgraded to the next european version, or b) the pilots are skilled in tactics to draw the F-22 into WVR combat, and they outnumber it.

SteveR

o would the U-2 beat them both in a dogfight?

Excellent retort firepilot!

now, where were we?

The Typhoon is more manueverable not counting thrust vectoring. That makes the F-22 actually more maneuverable.

once TVC is factored in I presume? That may be true, but it is far from certain. The F-22 also has a much greater mass and weighs in at roughly 3,500Kg more than the Typhoon, all that extra weight takes some shifting and *must* impact instantaneous turn rate, which is the one that matters. The immense TWR of the F-22 may well be enough to give it a better ITR than the Typhoon, or it might not. As it hasn't been demonstrated we're just guessing, and I'm not so sure.

The F-22 is also more AGILE (different than maneuverable) due to enormous thrust and a fantastic thrust to weight ratio.

No, actually, its the same thing. Don't forget thqat the Typhoon was spawned from the ACA, which stands for 'Agile Combat Aircraft'. It was a design objective from the start, and in a country that had already used TVC in actual warfare at the time of design so the agility requirement was fully understood.

The F-22s radar is powerful enough to focus it into a narrow beam and blow enemy sensors.

Only the first 13 words of that sentence are true, the end of it should read 'and emit a quick jamming pulse to disrupt an enemies ability to lock on'. The idea of it blowing enemy sensors is just science fiction, unless of course you can show me otherwise.

The F-22s radar is bigger, AESA, more powerful, longer range, and LPI.

What is the relevance of 'bigger'? Granted AESA and LPI are excellent advanced features, thats why CAESAR has them too. How do you know that it has a longer range? CAPTOR and CAESAR both have classified ranges but given that the Meteor has a longer range than the AIM 120D it would make sense for the radar to be able to make use of that range. The only figure given is 'well in excess of 100 miles', whereas the AN/APG 77 is quoted widely as '125 miles'. I reckon that is too close to call.

The F-22 has a frontal RCS of a small insect.

So, it is rumoured, does Typhoon. However you do the F-22 a disservice here, it is its all aspect LO that gives such a big advantage in BVR, not merely its frontal RCS. Typhoon only has a moderately reduced RCS from anything other than the frontal aspect and cannot compete in this area.

The F-22 has use of the AIM-9X High Off-Boresight missile and the AIM-120D. Thats like carrying both a sniper rifle and a shotgun. A shotgun who's bullets can turn around and pull 100G and hit something behind you.

The Typhoon has use of the ASRAAM High Off-Boresight missile and the Meteor BVRAAM. Thats like carrying both a sniper rifle and a shotgun. A shotgun who's bullets can turn around and pull 100G and hit something behind you. See what I did there?

Now, it is true that Meteor is not yet in service, but neither is the AIM 120D, both the F-22 and the Typhoon are currently equipped with the AIM-120C.

The F-22 has threat identification capability and MINI-AWACS capability.

ditto Typhoon

The F-22 has software to see who is shooting at who and direct people to all fire at different targets.

er, and again

The F-22 can supercruise with a full weapons load hundreds of knots faster than the eurofighter can without any weapons.

Its about 1-200 knots actually, and the bit about the Typhoon not carrying any weapons is simply not true, Typhoon has demonstrated supercruise with normal A2A load of four AMRAAM and two ASRAAM in place

Now, of course the F-22 is a more capable overall package, it absolutely is, but let the facts speak for themselves and don't go all space cadet about it with made up F-22 capabilities and/or deficiencies in the competition that simply don't exist.

Now if I was being boastful I would go on about the PIRATE, you might like to look into its capability before you dismiss it as 'just an IRST'. But I wont, I am happy merely to address the inaccuracies you posted. The F-22 was intended to have a PIRATE-style system itself but this was a budget casualty. I think its pretty much certain that such a system will be retrofitted however in the fullness of time.

[edit on 17-4-2007 by waynos]

Do we really want to argue this point again? I was reading through the posts shaking my head so much at some of the things being said I almost broke my neck... Let it go people the Typhoon was designed for a different role and era, and current capability reflects that, no insult just reality.

As for the new OP, hi and welcome to ATS, I kindly recommend you read the terms and conditions posted in the sticky threads for this section. Second I also suggest a search before starting a topic, many many threads have already been started on the very same question.

Se arch Result One
Search Result Two
Search Result Three

[edit on 17-4-2007 by WestPoint23]

This site has answers your question.

www.ausairpower.net...

Originally posted by SteveR
The Typhoon has beat 2x F-15E in WVR mock combat. At the start, the eagles were on his tail. In the case of the F-22 scenario, the Typhoon is most likely dust until either a) it's radars are upgraded to the next european version, or b) the pilots are skilled in tactics to draw the F-22 into WVR combat, and they outnumber it.

SteveR

So... a Typhoon beat two tactical strike bombers?

Are we surprised?

I don't think the F-15E was designed for A2A combat, let alone putting up with a fight against a Typhoon.

Shattered OUT...

The F-15E retains all capability of the F-15A. It is no less A2A capable than any other US jet ('till the 22) of which it is meant to be replaced by.

Umm... can anyone even give me a confirmed identifiable source for this alleged incident regarding the F-15's? I have been searching but all I find is speculative journalism which seems to be the norm in certain publications. Until such time I think it is pointless and dishonest to take rumors and not only argue about them (given the context) but also to proceed and present them as fact.

This is not speculative journalism. It is written as matter of fact in a respected paper.

scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...

I guess we should ignore it because we don't like it, huh?

Hmm... aside from the obvious nationalistic bias and agenda of the paper, that I can live with, where are the cited sources? Not one, the paper may be written in a matter of fact tone and read like a script but I still need to see some sources. All publications (without exception) reporting this alleged event either cite "unnamed" sources (how convenient) or claim it is being kept quiet. Yet, they manage to not only know the "facts" but also create elaborate scenarios which insert emotion and political bias. Please, surely you know better, why insist on believing it, because you want to?

[edit on 17-4-2007 by WestPoint23]

No.

I am quite happy with the Eagle being dominant in this case, it's a superb aircraft and the only one yet to wind me

Interesting discussion here

I have to read that particular magazine for my self to see the sources. I can quote a pilot who has been involved with the F-22 ever since it entered IOT&E in later 02 early 03 (one of only three pilots selected). He is still currently flying the F-22 as a LTC soon to command the third combat equipped F-22 squadron (the 90th FS). According to him the F-22 and Typhoon have never flown in the same airspace at the same time let alone "exercise" with one another. True they were both at Nellis but that is as far as it goes. The USAF would not allow such an event to occur, and not for the reason you might think...

The F-15E has all the dogfighting ability of any other Eagle, as was stated. However, I'd be concerned about the Typhoon if it COULDN'T beat a pair of them in a WVR fight.