French users, please reply

Hello. Could any French user tell me which president reduced France's nuclear arsenal from 540 warheads to 350 warheads? I'm asking because someone did. Read this: www.atomicforum.org...

I´m not french, but this decrease reulted from the termination of the land-based nuclear delivery systems of France - namely the "Pluton" and "Hades" mobile missile platforms and the single IRBM site of France. This happened from 1993-1997, under the rules of both Presidents Francois Mitterand and Jacques Chirac.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
I´m not french, but this decrease reulted from the termination of the land-based nuclear delivery systems of France

That is irrelevant, since ballistic missiles =/= nuclear warheads. If they terminated just the IRBMs, then France would still have the same nuclear arsenal, just less IRBMs, which means less warheads would be deliverable. But this is not the case, someone terminated those IRBMs AND reduced the stockpile. I would also like to know which president - Mitterand or Chirac - reduced French military expenditures. 15 years ago they accounted for 4% of GDP, now they are equal to 3% of GDP.

Francois Mitterand and Jacques Chirac.

Any proof to back up that claim? Not that I'd want to disbelieve you, I just want to be presented with proof so that I don't repeat unproven claims.

[edit on 14-4-2007 by INeedHelp]

Are you sure that the warheads on the IRBMs would be compatible with the M-series SLBMs?
That the re-mating would not constitute a MAJOR financial undertaking?
So they would've destroyed those unusable warheads, which coincidencially may have suited some political objective of disarmament as well.

I don't know the sizes of the nuclear core devices, but this is just something I am guessing as a probable reason..

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Are you sure that the warheads on the IRBMs would be compatible with the M-series SLBMs?

Yes. I don't know about bombers, though.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
That the re-mating would not constitute a financial undertaking?

Worth the price. As is always the case when we're talking about weapons.

Originally posted by INeedHelp
Yes. I don't know about bombers, though.

Ah yes.. The Mirage 2000 series, and even the F-1C were all nuclear capable..

And infact the number of IRBMs != number of warheads if those IRBMs were MIRV-ed

[edit on 14-4-2007 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by INeedHelp
Yes. I don't know about bombers, though.

Ah yes... The Mirage 2000 series

The M2000s are. Read this: www.globalsecurity.org...

Yes I know they are..
My country deploys them in a nuclear role..

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Yes I know they are..
My country deploys them

May I ask which country is your homeland?

[edit on 14-4-2007 by INeedHelp]

Je suis Indien..
Mais j'aime les choses francais..

Les avions francais particuliarement:
Mirage Deux mille par example..
Tres superbe avion..
J'espere il va gagner le RFP de 126 avions pour l'Armee de l'Air Indienne, mais il ya seulement 'Rafale' et c'est tres cher!

Originally posted by INeedHelp

Originally posted by Lonestar24
I´m not french, but this decrease reulted from the termination of the land-based nuclear delivery systems of France

That is irrelevant, since ballistic missiles =/= nuclear warheads.

Theoretically you are right. But not when these warheads are purpose-built. The French army uses the warheads TN 81 (300 kt TNT equivalent) for aerial delivery and MIRVs of six warheads of the the TN 70/71 (150kt ea.) and TN 75 (100kt ea.) on its SLBMs. Source

The Pluton, Hades and S3D IRBMs each used single warheads of the types AN-51 (

Francois Mitterand and Jacques Chirac.

Any proof to back up that claim? Not that I'd want to disbelieve you, I just want to be presented with proof so that I don't repeat unproven claims.

Whatever happened to trust among anonymous internet strangers *sigh*
Well, here we go:

As soon as the Cold War was over, France renounced developing programs (land-based S45 strategic missiles) and accelerated the withdrawal of two systems (Pluton missiles*, AN-52 bombs*). It then started scaling down its nuclear programs, whether they involved sea-launched systems (new-generation SSBNs*), air-launched systems (Mirage 2000N and ASMP* missiles), or ground-launched systems (Hadès* missiles).

[...]

[Excerpts from timeline:]

11 September 1991 The President of the French Republic announced the early withdrawal of Pluton missiles* and AN52 bombs* and the early cessation of Hades missiles manufacturing
[this was during Mitterands term]

[...]

23-23 February 1996 Announcement by the President of the Republic of the permanent cessation of the production of fissile material for nuclear weapons and of the permanent closing of the Pacific Test Site facilities.
Announcement of the new format for French nuclear forces :
- scaling down of ballistic missile nuclear submarine force from five to four
- further lowering of alert status
- end of Mirage-IVP nuclear mission
- dismantling of Hadès* missiles
- dismantling of S3D* missiles

[This was during Chiracs 1st term]

Source

I´ve also found a nice if in minor details contradictory wrap-up of this development in a german document. Translation by me:

Source, pgs 15-16

Deterrence Forever?
The Ambivalent Nuclear Weapons Policy of Great Britain and France (in German)

2.2 France
2.2.1 Nuclear policy of France

[Paragraph 2]

Immediately following the end of the East-West conflict President Mitterand began to adjust the french "force de frappe" [Deterrent force] to the changed geopolitical situation. Hitherto he announced a large-scale unilateral arms control and -disarmament initiative as eraly as 1991. Among other aspects he commanded the end of the development program on the new nuclear medium-range ballistic missile S-45. With that he created the groundwork for the end of the french medium range weapon systems. His successor Jacques Chirac announced in February 1996 that France were to cease a part of its nuclear triangle, the land-based nuclear weapons, and ordered the dismantling of the last 18 S-3D systems on the Plateau d´Albion.

[Paragraph 3]

During the Miterand Era France also decommissioned other land-based nuclear weapons. The Pluton-systems were decommissioned earlyand the number of Hades short range missiles were intially reduced, only to be decommissioned completely the following year. The air force as well was not exempt from the large-scale disarmament initiative of Mitterand. Here the tactical AN-52 nuclear weapons were decommissioned. Immediately after the Gulf War of 1991 the Mirage was only fitted with conventional weapons. At the end of the 1990s France only retained TN-80 and air-delivered ASMP-nuclear weapons and has reached a self-proclaimed deterrent niveau of "stricte suffisance".

[Paragraph 4]
President Mitterand also undertook further unilateral disarmament measures during his term. Following the Gulf War he decided that the french Mirage and Super entendard should only have conventional weaponry aboard.One year later he made another bold decision regarding a reduced alrm state when he announced that two instead of three submarine vessels were to be on patrol, fitted with nuclear weapons but not programmed on specific targets. Furthermore he decided to to cease production of highly enriched Uranium for military purposes. His successor Chirac continued this course by declaring the production of military Plutonium as "ended" in June of 1996 and ordered the dismantling of the production sites at Pierrelatte and Marcoule. Furthermore he replaced the six "Redoutable"-type submarines with only 4 instad of the planned 5 new vessels of the "Triomphant" class which were to be outfitted with strategic nuclear weapons. At the moment, 3 of these are in service with the french Navy, the last one is meant to be combat ready in 2008.

Satisfied now?

Thank you.

Well it would be kind of useless when France agreed to reduce its stockpile and then only terminated its delivery systems, hmm?

It would be stupid to reduce the stockpile or terminate the missiles.

No, the land-based delivery systems were terminated BECAUSE the nuclear weapons for those were dismantled

Yes, and that was a mistake (to terminate the warheads and the IRBMs). The IRBMs could be deployed not only in metropolitan France, but also in French overseas departments if needed. They could have also terminated the needless warheads and the IRBMs, but produce more warheads for the AF.

France has a lot less funding to sustain dual-capability delivery sytems

The budget of France would allow for a military as strong as the US Armed Forces, if the French just spent more money on the military instead of bureaucrats.

Well, and the Charles-de-Gaulle which seems to be in dock most of the time, so one could call it the 5th targettable base

No, the CDG is docked only 35% of the time. Don't want to lecture you, but you should read this: www.globalsecurity.org...

Right now the CDG is deployed to the Persian Gulf.

[edit on 14-4-2007 by INeedHelp]

Originally posted by INeedHelp
It would be stupid to reduce the stockpile or terminate the missiles.

Why when there are no enemies near they could use their limited-range missiles on?

Yes, and that was a mistake (to terminate the warheads and the IRBMs). The IRBMs could be deployed not only in metropolitan France, but also in French overseas departments if needed. They could have also terminated the needless warheads and the IRBMs, but produce more warheads for the AF.

Why would they be needed in the french overseas departments? Even if they were undersuch a severe threat that would qualify the use of nukes, what do you think are the nuclear submarines of France for?

The budget of France would allow for a military as strong as the US Armed Forces, if the French just spent more money on the military instead of bureaucrats.

And where is the existential war the French should prepare for with such measures? Last time I checked, the western Front was pretty quiet - not to say, boringly uneventful...

Well, and the Charles-de-Gaulle which seems to be in dock most of the time, so one could call it the 5th targettable base

No, the CDG is docked only 35% of the time. Don't want to lecture you, but you should read this: www.globalsecurity.org... ...

Well the smiley I put at the end of that sentence (which you didnt quote) could have hinted towards it being a tongue-in-cheek statement. It COULD. Nevertheless, a 35% percent downtime is not exactly a good statistic.

Originally posted by Lonestar24
Why when there are no enemies near they could use their limited-range missiles on?

Because they could be deployed abroad.

Why would they be needed in the french overseas departments?

Theoretically they would, even if the French don't want to nuke the states who claim their overseas departments (such states are nearby those overseas departments). Tomorrow any military threat could be necessary to deal with.

what do you think are the nuclear submarines of France for?

You are correct.

And where is the existential war the French should prepare for with such measures?

Currently, no threat except Vietnam, but the future is unpredictable and the French should be ready.

It COULD. Nevertheless, a 35% percent downtime is not exactly a good statistic.

Which is why the FN has ordered one more aircraft carrier.

[edit on 15-4-2007 by INeedHelp]

[edit on 15-4-2007 by INeedHelp]

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Je suis Indien..
Mais j'aime les choses francais.. Les avions francais particuliarement:
Mirage Deux mille par example.. Tres superbe avion..
J'espere il va gagner le RFP de 126 avions pour l'Armee de l'Air Indienne, mais il ya seulement 'Rafale' et c'est tres cher!

Je suis Fritz, une Anglais soldat. Je suis effrayé je fais pas s'entretenir Français véritable sain , mais MOI donneront le une vont.

Tandis que Je suis d'accord à vous Daedalus3 thanksggiving les Mirage 2 ou 3 êtes excellent avion , Je fais pas croire ils sont qui convient pour remettre nucléaire armement. Ça c'est l'étui à notre propre Panacée Tornade. À l'origine plan que une mugir égaliser pentration sonner avion , les Tornade pouvions nontheless voter une ou deux libérer vol nucléaire bombes. Une question restes toutefois. Pouvions une piloter survivre une nucléaire détonation?

Yo quiero Taco Bell, porque no me gusta Micky D's...

Now that the fun part is over, I wonder, can anyone tell me of what future nuclear plans France has. In terms of RD projects concerning warheads, missiles etc...?

[edit on 17-4-2007 by WestPoint23]