Video: [CULTURE ASPECT] of American Soldiers Shooting Iraqi Civilians

I posted this reply in a thread about US soldeirs killings in IRAQ:
mparent7777-3.blogspot.com...
but I want to give a different spin to this discussion and talk more about how our culture affect the Army and what can we do about it.
-----------
Our Army is a product of ourselves.
Listen to this video. The soldiers are so happy to kill "Dude, look how I ####ed him up! Ha-ha! Cool dude!" This is sick. Should there be a real war these marines may not last long.

But don't blame the marines. Look at our culture. One of the things that unites us the most is ... TV and movies. Look at your average Hollywood blockbuster. Evel is invented and easily justified to be an evil (usually unfair) and then good guys (usually superficial characters) come and kill the eveil 20 times and ENJOY the process.

How are these marines different? They are not.
How is GWB selling us on Iraq war is different? He is not.

We are the problem.

Our country is sick inside. We need to unite around things that portray the uncompromised values like freedom, humanity, strength, and truth. The real truth.

I don't even know where to start looking... Do you?

that's hideous. i don't blaim them either, though. imagine being in Iraq right now. Being put in a kill or be killed environment on a permanent basis, is something that is impossibly hard for most of us to truly grasp - especially when you don't know how, where, or from whom your fate will be sealed. imagine the fear you have as you leave for a patrol, or wait at a check-point as a vehicle approaches. your morals and ethics are gone, you shoot first and ask questions later or you die, if i had even the slightest suspicion i was being targeted, i wouldn't hesitate to try and stop it. and once you start shooting; once you turn that primal fight instinct on, you will shoot til you know you're safe or you run out of ammo. furthermore, if my squad is shooting at something i'm shooting it, too. your fellow soldiers are all you have in that place, and i can only imagine the strength of the bond and loyalty. what those kids have become is a matter of their surroundings, and the acclimation made to stay alive. hopefully, they have been detached from there emotions enough to deal with what they have done. this war is ridiculous, it can't be won, the people who were once with us are against us because of incidents like this.

The culture that our generation is bringing to the military is distinctive to say the least...
Kelly's Heroes are not entirely the exception to the rule anymore (I was cracked up my the prophetic aspect of the big speaker on Donald Southerland's tank).

But warriors have always been rather excitable when it comes to their trade. Some have gone into battle naked to make the point that they were unfraid, some sang taunting songs (where do you think Yankee Doodle came from?), some painted their airplanes bright red to invite enemy attacks, and now some of them play loud music during tank battles or scream and laugh while fighting.

The core question in my mind is not whether or not the acts themselves are appropriate. A battle field is a hell of a place for a nation to suddenly start minding its manners. Perhaps if we'd mind our manners earlier on there would be no battlefields.

The core question is whether or not these acts are symptomatic of a problem that is causing a dangerous lack of discipline or an undue disregard for the rules of war.

Providing that the job is done as it should be in the unforunate circumstances where it need be done at all, I really don't care what the men look or sound like. I don't care if they strap a copy of playboy to their flackjacket in hopes of making the muslim extremists refuse to aim... as long as they don't kill people who don't need killing and don't get their comrades killed by screwing around.

First off: The US military has 0 warriors in it.
Second off: Warriors do not do such acts, they would rather die. Soldiers are the ones who are willing to sacrifice what a nation stands for, or sacrifice all humanity and ethics.
Third: Warriors are those who stand up for the rights of others, they fight when need be, not because they want too
Fourth: Soldiers are paid to fight, given bonuses and so on, in short: loot if they win. Ring a bell? US army, navy, AF, Marines, etc.
Fifth: Warriors are those who would (as stated) rather die than to give up what they stand for: the people. Warriors throughout history have done this, they protected their homes professionaly but asked for nothing in return. Exact counter to current military.
Sixth: Warriors do not commit crimes, as stated, they would rather die, they do not fight unjust wars, they fight when need be as stated. Iraq is illegal, yet they do not care. Not warriors, soldiers.

So what IS the US military then? Mercenaries.
Mercenaries are people who get a paycheck and other perks for fighting for someone elses beliefs and screw anything else. The US military is a MERCENARY army, nothing else. They get paid to kill people, not much, but it beats living on the streets. At the same time the fact they do not care about legality and illegality shows they are mercenaries. Anyone who says contrary will fall over their tounge, because the mercenary army keeps on fighting. A WARRIOR based army would have long ago turned on the ruling elite and finished them off to protect the people. Or simply refused to fight AT ALL rather than go against what the nation stands for: Justice, freedom, the right to life and liberty and the persuit of happyness. What I just named is what warriors throughout the centuries have fought to protect, not the tiny elite. People keep mixing up the words "warrior" and "soldier" and blurr the line. Yet there is a giant glow in the dark line between the two. Mercenaries are what the US military is made of, nothing else.

Saw the movie on another topic, commented there.

Originally posted by Vekar
First off: The US military has 0 warriors in it.

Please explain the vantage point from which you made this observation. There are more than a few of us around here who lived amidst those warriors and were part of their number, and I suspect that to the man they would beg to differ.

Second off: Warriors do not do such acts, they would rather die.

Acts such as shouting, cursing, etc? Or acts such as gunning down innocent civilians? I ask because the first can be demonstrated to have happened. The second is speculative at best.

Third: Warriors are those who stand up for the rights of others, they fight when need be, not because they want too

Actually they fight when ordered. If the warriors decided when there was and was not a need to fight, we would have no civilization. If you're upset about the decision to engage the enemy in a populated area, your quarrel is with a general, not a fighting man. If you're upset that we are in Iraq at all, your quarrel is with the first Fratboy and the overwhelming majority of the United States Congress that sent us to war even when at least half (the minority party) knew it was a bad idea and had the means to stop it.

Fourth: Soldiers are paid to fight, given bonuses and so on, in short: loot if they win.

Are you equating hazardous duty pay to spoils of war?

Fifth:

Our fighting men have sold us out and failed to defend our homeland, choosing instead to put profit first? Funny, I was almost sure that it was our civilian government that had done that. Our warriors are drawn from among the people, and unlike in many societies, are not completely separated from civilian society. They were sold out with the rest of us by the political elite.

Sixth: Warriors do not commit crimes, (snip) Iraq is illegal

Again, if warriors made those decisions it'd be a very ugly world. The whole point is that the military doesn't get to question these subjects, because our civilian government is supposed to be in control and be better qualified to make the right calls. Our civilian government, unfortunately, is corrupt. If you don't like it, deal with the government. Don't blame the military for not doing so. A revolution would be preferable to a coup, would it not? Correct me if I'm wrong of course- I may not be so expert at splitting hairs as you.

So what IS the US military then? Mercenaries
Mercenaries are people who get a paycheck

You have defeated your own argument. I made more money as an unarmed guard at a country club than I did in the Marine Corps.

You also make the completely ungrounded assertion that there is no underlying value system that motivates our troops. They get paid, you don't happen to agree with their values, therefore you deny that they have values, and that makes them mercinaries, correct?

Would you care to give me an example of an armed group somewhere in the world or in history that wouldn't be considered mercinary by your standards? I could offer a few if you like. The IRA, Al Qaida, the Janjaweed, the Lord's Resistance Army, Hizbollah, HAMAS, Irgun, the early Sturmabteilung, Quantrill's Raiders, stop me any time.

A WARRIOR based army would have long ago turned on the ruling elite and finished them off to protect the people.

So in your mind a warrior is a superman who can be trusted to make political decisions simply because he means well? You my friend, are making quite an argument for military dictatorship. There have been a few coups in relatively recent history; shall I compile travel brochures from the affected nations so that you may go see your kind of "warriors" for yourself?

Ok Vaga, I will bite at you then if that is what you want.
Soldier: fights for a state, in short a GOVERNMENT BODY, our government body does NOT represent the people, therefor they are fighting for an illegal group of tyrants.
MERCENARIES: Offer services in exchange for goods (money, loot) and will carry it out to the end. Mercenaries have no code of conduct, morals, laws, etc. They will however not shoot their own, doing so would be folly and damage their appearance to employers.

Now then onward to the discussion:
0 warriors: 100% correct, just read above, you fall into one of two, your not a warrior. As stated, which you did not read nor comprehend warriors have been known as a group of people who are willing to fight when there IS JUST CAUSE! NOT BECAUSE THEY WANT TOO OR ARE FORCED TOO! Unless of course your refering to barbarian warriors, not civilized ones. The military fits prefectly into one of two above sections, in case you did not read: soldier/mercenary.
Acts: Murder, rape, torture, etc. Warriors would rather die than to forfeight what they stand for, whereas a soldier is someone who just drones on accross the field killing whatever they are ordered too, justified or not. Mercenaries do the same.
Fight: If warriors fought when ordered too then you would have more wars than you ever wanted in history. Why? Warriors are NOT soldiers or mercenaries, warriors throughout the centuries are known for being those who stand up for their people, not the leadership. Examples: Celts, warrior society that fell because they had horribly outdated tactics and 0 armor vs. roman legions... I did a report on this, if the celts had changed tactics and worn armor history would have shown the Romans as defeated. None the less! The Celts (or Gauls) were a tribal society, they had a warrior class that would fight when they had too. However in the same section there are barbarian Celts (gauls) who fought just to raid, they were not warriors but raiders.
Example 2: Tibetan warriors (shaolin monks) or Warrior Monks as they would be called. They took up arms when need be, not because they wanted too. They protected the people, and in the end vs. China gave their lives because the US government abandoned them.
Example 3: Native Americans, The Dine (Navajo) are a raider society, not a warrior class, however if you then turn and look at the OTHER societies that did not raid: Warrior class, they protected the pueblos, villages, hamlets, etc. They did not go out on murdering rampages because they were ordered too, they fought when need be.
My state is the example: Apache vs. Pueblo (they were exterminated by the spaniards and records burnt so we still have NO idea who they were) but here is what happened: Apaches were/are raiders, they stole, raped, murdered, burnt down villages, etc. Well one group in Northern NM (New Mexico) was cornered by a swarm of vengful victims and fled to the Spaniards in Albuquerque for help. The Spaniards did not want them so they told them to go stay with one pueblo up in what is today called the "Bloomfield, Farmington, Aztec area." Being they wanted this pueblo wiped out... They would not conform apparently, and the Spaniards could not drive them out. So. The Apache raiders moved in with the pueblo who took pity on them. Well the Apaches tried to murder their entire pueblo a short time after and found the warriors WAITING on them. They had known but still offered a hand to see if they would change their ways or not. The Apache tribe was wiped out or driven off. The Spaniards after a time sent up an army and wiped them out the plauge and disease way though. Proof? I visited the bloody museum for the place! It is in the area of FAR EASTERN FARMINGTON, WESTERN Bloomfield, NORTHERN Aztec. Now you could say the apaches were warriors, but you would only reinforce my point: they acted like soldiers and mercenaries not warriors. They went around after a paycheck (loot) not what was better for the people. They paid dearly for it in the end.
OK! There is your history lesson of warriors in the Western hemisphere, and one in the Eastern. Point being: warriors will take orders, but not ILLEGAL orders, they will not fight WITHOUT JUSTIFICATION! HUGE shining difference between warriors and your mercenary army.

Pay: heheheheh. You did not read a word of what I said: You missed my example of why A LOT of people join the military: starve or get paid and also have housing and food. If you think society is not this desperate you have apprently lived a VERY sheltered life. Also, just turn on Ebay and look up Iraqi money, you will get all kinds of stuff stolen by your mercenaries and soldiers. That is my proof. I could of bought a pound (LB.) of Iraqi money for $50.00 USD about a year ago if I wanted too. Not to mention I even found one bit of a Surmian tablet a British guy had chipped off and stolen and was selling. Why do I say stolen? Historical artifacts are not to be taken with you anywhere, the whole world accepts this, when you find something: leave it and call an archeologist or the government and tell them. More proof? How about some of these movies that have floated around showing the US military looting sites? Not sure where they are now, 2 years later but I saw 2 of them. Want more proof: the Iraqi museums... oh wait! There gone! Everything was looted! Now you say: That was the Iraqis not US! WRONG! You never held the good of the people in mind, ever. If you did you would have protected their heritage, you had an army at your disposal (yes, they are disposable if you look at how they are used) so why did you NOT protect what little the Iraqis had? You bombed the rest so at LEAST protect what is left!
Guess not, might be to CIVILIZED of you to protect history! Especially the OLDEST!

Sold out: They sell themselves, you sell yourseft for money in the military. Paid for services of killing whoever shows up=Soldier/Mercenary. Warriors think, they are not drones. Again: they would rather DIE than betray their people. Proving my point your army sold the PEOPLE out by fighting the governments illegal wars. If you want to know what a warrior is once again: Watch the movie: "Sir no Sir!" Pay attention to the very end where the black people were discussing their orders. THOSE were warriors, they were going to turn on their commanders if they were told to murder their own people. What do we see today? Mercenaries in New Orleans, National Guard taking peoples guns in a HOSTILE AREA BECAUSE LOOTERS ARE MOVING IN AND THE COPS MOVED OUT!! They did NOT have the interest of the people in mind and were in DIRECT violation of the 2nd amendment. Soldiers and mercenaries NOT warriors.
Blame: Oh heck do I ever blame the fools on the ground for following illegal orders 3 years later when more evidence than ever is out it was illegal. Those who proved themselves warriors like Ehren Watada turned and said: "No." A warrior stands up for what is right, if they are fooled, learn the truth, they turn around and change what they have done. Soldiers and mercenaries just trudge on taking orders from whoever is paying them and feeding them.
Military Coup de tat: It would be nice to see the military storm Washington and yank them out into the street and line them up. Would it not? They would be proving their loyalty for the first part, but if they then handed over the government they would COMPLETELY prove their loyalty to the PEOPLE not the GOVERNMENT. Then again if they would do like so many tens of thousands of others and go AWOL they would have NO army to fight with. Or just outright refuse to follow illegal orders. Remember that is the right of those in the military: to NOT follow ILLEGAL orders. Iraq=Illegal, orders to go there=Illegal order. Watada called this one and the government (military court) tried to DUCK IT BY SAYING THAT IS NOT THE POINT OF THIS TRIAL! They are SCARED to even have to FACE that with one of their own! USE IT! continued...

Continued: When they are scared to have to face evidence proving Iraq is illegal in the MILITARY COURTS you have them on the run. So if they do not use this they will close the gap and that will no longer be the chance of a lifetime to prove even in the military that Iraq is illegal. It was ALREADY done on the civilian level.

Mercenaries are...: CORRECT! They get a paycheck! They are PAID to do assassinations, murders, invasions, etc. That is their sole purpose, want to see attrocities? Look at what mercenary firms have done around the world: Blackwater Iraq, Yugoslavia (Al Qauida were paid in weapons by Clinton to attack Milosevics army, proof: The Defence Speeks (book)) then we go down into South America, CIA sponsored attempted overthrow of Hugo Chavez, now CENTRAL: El Salvador, Panama. Want one from WW2? The African Corp, headed by Irwin Ramel (Nazi) who forced the Africans to fight the British and USA, they consented and fought. Mercenary army, they were NOT representing their people, but someone ELSES. For those who say: they would have killed them... Well look at it this way: the whole bloody world knew the Nazis would kill them ANYWAY so why fight FOR them? The British HAD controlled parts of Africa and the fact the Africans knew the new and far more extreme oppressors were their enemies did not learn from wisdom: "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Values: values based on what? Just following orders and just doing your job no matter what it may entail?? That goes against ALL ethics and morals in society. You do what is RIGHT no matter what, that is what a warrior does. They protect their people and do what is right. "Values" based on fighting illegal wars shows they are more than ever NOT warriors but soldiers/mercenaries. Soldiers once again being representatives of an entity. Currently being the US government, being a rouge group of tyrants. Want to prove me wrong? They do not follow illegal orders! DO NOT HELP THEM SINK THIS NATION! By doing their dirty work you are only helping to dig a grave for the USA which is what they WANT! Once again proving you do not care in your heart, but are willing to say so to peoples faces with a smile only to keep them from hanging you.
So your WRONG Vaga.
MY STANDARDS: Well, if I have standards and you do not... Oh you do? So what are they? Just do what your told? GREAT! SIGN UP FOR GEORGE ORWELL 1984 PLEASE! The governments right, im wrong, their smart, were dumb... (sarcasm) Lets go over your list: IRA (Irish Republican Army) is fighting to get RID of the British. Who are OCCUPYING NOTHERN IRELAND! This is a over 100 year old war here. They are fighting for their people to get rid of the British. They do NOT go around the world beating up on people! Proof enough! Mercenary and soldiers DO THAT and HAVE throughout the world for as far back as you can go, even BEFORE Rome put forth their soldiers. The Irish war goes back to William Prince of Orange who moved Scots into Ireland in the attempt to take more land. What happened was the Irish fought back... Wouldnt you? So they invaded, took over, and then tried to EXTERMINATE the Irish! How? They divided up the land. They gave each family a TINY, TIIIINNNYYYY plot of land to grow food on. This is why there are SO MANY rock walls, there used to be FAR MORE! The Irish starved to death for a time then started to fight back harder. However they only managed to push to Brits back into the North Eastern corner. Proof? Rick Steves Europe special and college history classes.
The others: Mercenary groups mostly. Once again: Warrior: fights for the people, stands up for what is right and just. Soldier Mercenary: paid, fights when told too since they are paid too, and do not represent a people but usualy a person or government body. Once again: US government=Rouge. Yet, they still serve them.
YES PLEASE DO COMPILE! Because a WARRIOR will protect the PEOPLE and do what is JUST AND RIGHT! NOT instigate DICTATORSHIPS THAT ARE OUT FOR BLOOD! Proof: counter coup of the coup in Venezuela. The military TURNED ON THE RULING ELITE and OVERTHREW THEM! Proof: THE REVOLUTION SHALL NOT BE TELEVIZED! Watch it. Those are WARRIORS, or starting ones at least. They saw what was going on, talked it over, and then turned on the fascist dictators who had taken over. Would YOU not want people like that here? Tyrant takes over, military throws them out, gets the guy/gal the people VOTED FOR or WANT and puts them in or BACK into power.
Vaga if your going to cite a long list of BS fake "warriors" then dont. Side note.

I defined warrior, soldier and mercenaries for you. It is a SIMPLE PROCESS! The "standards" you claim I have that are so high are just BORROWED from other societies around the world! The Tibetans, some Celtic tribes, the Irish, Scottish, Native American, etc. Warrior do what is right, they stand up for their people and do not allow anyone who harm or threaten them. Complete opposite of today. Today we see an army that is running around the world murdering people and helping the elite to further their goals. Murder, YES! Unjustified killing IS murder. The Iraqis never wanted the US their, the US never had the RIGHT to be there. YET! They keep fighting for a tyranical goverment who does not give two hoots about the people, but is instead digging a grave as fast as they can for the people so they can have TOTAL control.

My point summary: No army, no war. Prove you stand for the people not the elite. The evidence is already here, it has BEEN here, so make your decision. Vaga, I have defined warriors, soldiers and mercenaries over 5 times now. If you cannot grasp that, you never will. Take a look at history for once. Look at the societies that HAD warriors before your mercenary armies slaughtered them for their land (IE: Native Americans) and other societies you PURPOSEFULLY let fall: Tibet. Once again, I have named 2 groups who HAD warriors, and now have high poverty and disease or were neigh wiped out by your soldiers and mercenary armies.
"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
Yup, you just keep following your army round and round all you want. Take a lesson from ROME for once.

No one on this planet, nor in this universe is a "superman." They are people, but they have a brain, and can make a decision of right from wrong. Just from unjust. I am telling you to do that, telling you and the whole WORLD to do that. To use your brains to make a decision: WHOM SHALL YOU SERVE?
Currently: US military: service too: corporations and the elite.
What should be: US military: Service too: the people and the constitution.
The later was perverted to highly that the lines are switched though, they lie saying your serving the people by serving the corporations and elite (Government) when you are NOT. You are HARMING the people, which is a DIRECT violation of what a warrior stands for.

First and foremost I'll thank you not to directly accuse me of one more thing unless you intend to walk the walk by reporting me to federal law enforcement for these alleged crimes.
The irony is entertaining, but we're trying to discuss whether or not people are being civilized so we may as well get a little practice at it ourselves.

Originally posted by Vekar
Soldier: fights for a state, in short a GOVERNMENT BODY, our government body does NOT represent the people, therefor they are fighting for an illegal group of tyrants.

Do you pay your taxes?
If so, you provide material support to the same tyrants.
You don't think you do it simply because you'd go to jail if you didn't either. I say that because based on your statements so far, it seems likely that you would rather go to jail than support tyrants. Or am I wrong? Is the answer actually that you lack the virtue that you belittle our military for lacking? I'll assume not.
But if you didn't pay your taxes, which do in part support those tyrants, you'd also be depriving needy children of aid, failing to fund the roads that bring you the food you need to live, in short abandoning a hundred things which keep our civilization from collapsing.

Similiarly, our warriors abstain from assuming the right to make a political call, even if you think they should, because it is not their place as a small minority of the people to decide to undertake a civil war that could rip our nation apart simply on the basis of their armament.

It's your government that controls them. If you don't like the things they are being ordered to do, get a handle on your government and stop blaming these men who so profoundly respect the democracy they have pledged themselves to defend that they would prefer to let their lives be squandered on a war like this one rather than selfishly ripping our society apart to end something that YOU have the power to end PEACEFULLY with your vote.
Are you truly angry with our warriors for failing to introduce violence into your neighborhood out of impatience with the slow progress of domestic politics? Would you really respect them more if they, comprising less than 1% of the population, picked up their rifles and ran amok on your and your neighbors everytime they were struck by the opinion that the voters had failed?

All you have done for over a thousand words on end is reassert the same point again and again, plucking definitions and moral absolutes out of thin air and connecting the dots with highly specious reasoning.
I'll thank you to quit chanting talk turkey, in solid, specific terms, about how your vision of a "warrior" would fit into a democratic society.

Acts: Murder, rape, torture, etc.

You're not seriously suggesting that all, or even most of our troops have committed these offenses are you?


Your examples are self defeating. You go on about how wonderful the celt warriors were then you immediately point out that they were raiders too. Of course you draw the line between good celts and bad celts there so as to divide black from white even though it existed in one grey group- but when it comes to our military you prefer to lump them all together. Convenient.

Example 2: Tibetan warriors (shaolin monks) or Warrior Monks as they would be called.

The ones who assisted with the training of an imperial army during the Ming dynasty? I'm not saying they aren't an intriguing and generally positive group, but if you were scrutinizing them the way you do our troops you'd find problems there too.

OK! There is your history lesson of warriors in the Western hemisphere, and one in the Eastern.(snip) HUGE shining difference between warriors and your mercenary army.

Hardly.
You falsely divided the celts to preserve a black and white world view, you used an extremely cursory history of Shaolin to keep them lily white, and you conveniently ignored the fact that the Apaches were raiding people who had invaded their land and ruined their livelihood to keep them completely on the dark side.
The world is not black and white. You are attempting to paint it as being so because that way even the slightest human failing would be damning to our entire military, but that's just not reality.

If you think society is not this desperate you have apprently lived a VERY sheltered life.

Of course. All Marines live very sheltered lives. I never got even the faintest hint of the real world, nor any sense of where "a lot" of the guys around me came from.
I certainly never met a rich man in the Marine Corps, but I didn't meet anyone who had been missing meals either. I saw thrill seeks, patriots, a few tough guys, and a few people who just didn't like living in Detroit. No impovrished wretches. Not surprising really since the median household income for enlistees in 2005 was over 40,000 dollars. (The military cheats themselves out of recruits from poorer areas by refusing to take the bottom quintile of AFQT scores and anyone with a criminal record, and both poor education and crime rates can be tied to income).

Also, just turn on Ebay and look up Iraqi money, you will get all kinds of stuff stolen by your mercenaries and soldiers. That is my proof. I could of bought a pound (LB.) of Iraqi money for $50.00 USD about a year ago if I wanted too.

Ok, that covers one guy (I'm assuming you have proof it was a soldier and that he did get the money illegitimately)... now just go catch the other 139,999 troops doing something wrong and the argument is settled.

Everything was looted! Now you say: That was the Iraqis not US! WRONG!

That exclamation point is the best evidence you've presented so far, and it's not enough.

Military Coup de tat: It would be nice to see the military storm Washington and yank them out into the street and line them up.

You sound like a tough guy, why haven't you already done it? Can't reach them from way up there on that soap box?

Directly accuse you of what? .......Report you WHY?....? Also for WHAT...

Anyway:
Taxes: Glory of living on a native american reservation: you avoid almost ALL taxes! Yipee!!! Also the taxes I DO pay do NOT go to the tyrants, you see gas taxes do not go to the elite but to repairing roads, food tax to whatever... state tax goes to the schools and homeless shelters in my state. I am NOT funding the elite, I do not pay their taxes. I will not either, thus I work and live on a native american reservation, its a quick way of dodging taxes pending on what job you do.
Watch: freedom to fascism. Its free on Youtube, it tells you a BIT about what taxes go where, because of this knowledge and other knowledge gained by outside sources I can tell you: I PROUDLY do NOT support the elite! I pay NO tax that goes to their war funding! Gotta love native american reservations!!
They are NOT "my" warriors they are YOUR mercenaries apprently... I do not fund them remember? Also, if they cannot trust their own judgement, I frankly think they would never have a snowballs chance in hell in war. Because they are unable to make the most BASIC and CIVILIZED calls: politics. When a nation is erupting in turmoil over the government, and you think you have no right to do anything when your SUPPOSED to be the one PROTECTING THE PEOPLE AND PROTECTING THEIR CONSITUTION when its being RIPPED APPART: then NO ONE, and I mean EVER has the right to challange it. Because its their JOB. Or was actually. Not anymore. heeheheheh
Go watch the movie: "The revolution will not be televized" before daring to challange me on that one, soldiers in Venezuela WATCHED AND ASKED the people first, THEN they acted! The nation did NOT fall appart, it pushed forward. Civil war happens because the people do NOT support X cause, but thanks to internet, phones, e-mail, radio and the tiny few independent TV stations: not the case anymore. You can see nationwide who supports what.
Not their place: WRONG! When you are "supposed" (not the case anymore) protect a people and a constitution and you OUTRIGHT 100% FAIL to do so: your part of the problem. When your the one who is supposed to support it with your life: you darn well bettered show up on their doorstep and throw them out! If not you: who will? Oh thats right, the people, because even though your supposed to use YOUR life to protect and DO NOT, its falls to us now. Watch the movie I prescribed to aid your thought process on this one.
Vaga you are really not catching the point: NOT MY GOVERMENT THANK YOU! WHAT WE HAVE IS ROUGE! Thank you and goodnight on that one. Vote? Two elections stolen and more to come! So BS about my vote counting when millions are thrown away. If they want to protect the nation: stop serving the elite like morons and make a stand.
Warriors: again you are 100% wrong, I have proven again and again what a warrior is a warrior is NOT. You do NOT have a CLUE what you are talking about right now. Warriors stand up for people, soldiers and mercenaries get a paycheck and fight for a goverment or the one who is paying them. Warriors do not. They fight when just, and if they make a wrong, they openly correct it rather than keep doing wrongs.
THEY ARE NOT WARRIORS! YOU ARE INSULTING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIED IN HISTORY WHO WERE!
Amok: Thanks to mass media (internet, etc) that is no longer the issue of making mistakes. Things can be broadcasted quickly now. Get with the program and use it to your benefit!
Who said I want them in my neighborhood? Why would they be in mine let alone YOURS? The whitehouse is where they need to be! NOWHERE ELSE! Its simple.

Assertion: yes because you never read a word I say let alone think about it. Defintions are not out of thin air vaga, they are from dictionaries, and historical FACT. If that is thin air, then you are more than wrong on everything. When history is no longer evidence, nothing is. When a dictionary is wrong, everything is wrong.
Democratic: WRONG! We are supposed to be a republic! Remember? "To the republic for which it stands..." Remember? We are NOT a democracy for the last time, we are a REPUBLIC! Warriors have a place in these societies more than any other. Monarchies DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WANT WARRIORS! Why? They do NOT serve the kingship, they serve the PEOPLE! Get it?
Ok you dont:
Let me put it this way: would you prefer an army that is mercenaries and soldiers who serve a goverment entity or warriors who support and protect YOU? Which would you pick? I pick the warriors. Because they would rather die than serve a corrupt goverment, and follow the morals and ethics of the people. Yours do not, they are SOLDIERS and MERCENARIES.
Murder, rape...: ABSOLUTELY! 100%! Murderers for attacking a nation unjustly, unjustified killing IS murder according to law remember? Manslaughter ring a bell? Rape, proven, torture, proven. Abu grabe remember? Guantanamo... Your mercenaries fit into one of those groups.
Want to prove me wrong? Prove Iraq is LEGAL. Do so in an OPEN TOPIC to ALL of ATS and prove ONCE AND FOR ALL Iraq is legal making the over 600,000 Iraqis murdered: killed. As in justified.
Celts: So, Germans are all Nazis still? Wow. That is BACKWARDS! TO THINK A SOCIETY ONLY HAS ONE KIND OF PEOPLE!!! WOW!!! (Sarcasm off) There are good and bad in all, I am pointing out examples of TRUE warriors, and then proving that yes there were RAIDERS in that society. As we have today: thieves. Only they are no longer a RAIDER CLASS but a criminal group. There is black and white between RIGHT AND WRONG. Learn that. Unless you think there ARE NO LINES between fighting in protection (warrior celts) and maraunders (raider celts) who went around wiping others out, also themselves. Celts were mainly in Britain, Gauls in Europe. Both are the same group in the end, but like all groups, divide down. Apparently that is wrong according to your standards.

Tibetans: Ming dyanasty: prove that one. If they did: Wrong group, your refering to the CHINESE Shaolin, who participated in the BOXERS REBELLION. Not Tibetans. Also, they had a COMMON ENEMY! If China fell, Tibet would follow, Mongols remember? Self preservation. Logical.

Black and white: Yes big differance, DIFFERANCE IN PURPOSE AND PHILOSOPHY! Jeez, start reading and not trying to scrutinize everything for your twist. Anyway: I am right. I proved there WERE those in the society that DID NOT stand for what the others did, thus the celtic warriors vs. the celtic raiders. One society, but breaks down into conflict at times. Did I say ALL Apaches by the way? No. I do not know the names of every single tribe I have met, if I did I would not have the job I do, I would be getting a higher paycheck right now as an archeologist in my state working for native american reservations. I cited the fact that the offending group WAS Apache. Before they got slaughtered.
I DO make things VERY narrow for fail/succeed when it comes to MORALS AND ETHICS! Also what one stands for, because if you do not, then you blurr the line between right and wrong. Right and wrong are what we are taught from an early age: wrong= murder and rape. Right= helping others in need and being kind. Those 4 are examples of both.

Sheltered: Watch michael moores film on bowling for columbine, there is a part in there about targeting poor neighborhoods. Not sure about WHEN you were in the military, but things change quickly in this world. Economic primarily, though philosphies do not, they take time. I am refering to economic. Now tell me, with 40,000 USD a year, what would you do? Not much. You would be unable to have a home, much food, pay your bills let alone anything else in this nation. Get a grip and walk outside sometime. Thats bottom of the bucket, teachers are paid that and most that I know have 2-3 jobs on the side because they cannot afford to live. It is FAR to expensive, and I live in a state that is rather CHEAP when it comes to cost of living!!
Proof: go online, look up the looting of Iraqi museums. You might be able to find a video I saw of it too. Want the accusations by the way? You did not read them nor quote them: YOU DID NOT PROTECT THESE SITES! AT ALL! That is THEFT! Its like driving a car with a murderer/rapist in your passangers side. Cop pulls you over, you get busted too. Why? Aiding and abiding a criminal. That is what your mercenaries are doing. They ALLOWED it to happen or took part in it.

Why havent...: Oh yeah! I am a 10ft tall, all bruan, 400lb slab of muscle! (Sarcasm off) If you think I am on a soapbox your wrong. None the less: Why havent YOU tried to take these people down? Too high and mighty? (Sarcasm off) Still, why havent YOU? Why havent YOU tried to get the military to stop serving them? Why havent YOU tried to inform them? Or have you? If not: WHY? Why have I not done this: I do not live in DC and gas prices are so high who is the right mind would go that distance? Also I do not have an ARMY at my back, just me right now, I am not affiliated with ANY group. I like my anoymosity. That is why I have not. I would have your mercenaries protecting the corruption, SS, police, SWAT, FBI, CIA, ATF, and a host of other such goverment organizations. I am not superman nor are you, so I doubt you nor I or even both of us combined could stop them. Besides, I was suggesting your mercenaries prove themselves to be for the people by following what happened in Venezuela OR by simply not following illegal orders anymore. Its more of THEIR job NOT MINE! It is THEIR job to protect our constitution more so than mine. Yet they are not. Thus I suggested they take a stand. Is that wrong? Taking a stand? Doing what is moraly right and ethical as well? If taking a stand is wrong, especially when you "swore" to protect X cause, then no one in the entire history of the planet, galaxy, let alone universe has the right to stand up because it too would be wrong.

I say: TAKE A STAND AND PROVE ME WRONG! PROVE ME WRONG BY BEING WARRIORS AND THROWING THESE PEOPLE OUT!

As you read this, you may notice that I'm making appropriate use of carriage returns and not typing any part of it in all caps, which lends a somewhat more civil and less out of my mind air to the things I say.

Let's summarize for a moment.
You admit that the "warriors" you used as examples had their virtues and vices, yet you continue to assert that America's forces are, from top to bottom, rapists and murders.

You accused them of looting and then accused me personally of standing by and letting it happen (I wasn't even in Iraq by the way. I was injured a few weeks before I would have deployed and discharged). If I had infact stood by and tollerated such things I would be criminally liable, and there are prosecutors in this country who would pursue such a thing. So do the right thing and turn me in. Forgive me if I sue you afterwards.

You called me sheltered while claiming that it is hard to get by on the median national income, which more than double what a family would have to make to be considered "in poverty". That's OK though, I am a tremendous fan of irony. Incidentally, I'm awaiting a full refund of my taxes for 2006 because I am in fact considered "in poverty" at the moment, being a starving student, and I have no complaints. I can't exactly afford to order pizza everynight, but I'm certainly not doing with out anything I actually need.

You claim that you don't support materially support the government because you only pay taxes that go for good things. Not so. Its not as if the roads can go unpaved or the schools unstaffed- the government has to have that money, and if you weren't paying your taxes, they'd have to free up money elsewhere in the budget... perhaps by not fighting an unnecessary war. You can split hairs all day long but at the end of the day we're funding a war that is nothing but a subsidy for well connected businessmen. Even me, though I'm getting a full refund, because they aren't giving back my sales tax, and the national guard is fighting.


Then there is the major issue of contention: that soldiers should not only defend the constitution, but defend it based on their own interpretation of it. You think 2.6 million heavily armed people usurping the duty of the SCOTUS would be a good thing. I think it would be a spectacular mess. An organization that comprises less than 1% of the population, and that heavily demographically skewed towards certain regions of the country (and heavily conservative in political leanings I might add) has no moral right to interpret the US Constitution and unilaterally undertake its execution.

The people of the United States have democratically elected our representatives (if you don't understand the concept of a Democratic Republic I won't bother explaining it) to check and balance the executive and judicial branches, they have the power to choose who occupies the executive office, and from the combination of those two, they indirectly control who sits on the SCOTUS. It's worked reasonably well for a couple of hundred years. It's imperfect, but it has a better track record than any junta in my memory.

Even with any irregularities which might indicate fraud, the elections were remarkably close. Do you know why? Because you can only get away with so much. It's one thing to slip a couple of hundred through in a couple of counties. It is another matter to be able to save a president who has an approval rating in the 30s. You'll have to do a tad better than crying stolen election to absolve yourself of responsibility for your place in society. Have you ever noticed how many people who complain about the election being stolen didn't even vote? It's uncanny. I recall a prof asking the class who voted. I was one of two people. Then came the essays on the Iraq war, and everyone was arguing that Bush lacked a mandate of the people. All I could think was, "jesus, where were you people in November?"

You say that mass media can give clear orders to the military direct from the people. Show me. Show me an accurate, verified count demonstrating that 151 million Americans want the military to overthrow Bush. Show me 15 million. Show me 1.5 million. I'll concede the entire argument if you can show me compelling evidence of a majority clearly asking the military to do this for them.


Oh, and feel free to quote the dictionaries you said you were going on any time. Or I could do it for you
dictionary.reference.com...
dictionary.reference.com...
dictionary.reference.com...

Oops for you.

Now this is getting ridiculous, and I'm not in the mood to keep reading 2,000 word compositions from you in your standard "blob-o-text" format and getting nowhere, much less being "assigned" hours of propaganda film viewing just because you can't reconstruct the relevant arguments for yourself, so why don't we settle the issue.

Let's take it to the H2H forum. I've got one going on at the moment but I'll do two at once just to make the point. We'll get ourselves a judged debate and I'll relieve you of the notion that you make sense, then we can be friends again.

First off vaga, your being offencive. I capitalize statements so as to give EMPHASIS! Learn this quickly, and you might just learn how the english language works. Your text does not aid your words at all. I use more emphasis on certain things so they STAND OUT from others. Take some writing classes.
Asserting: those who are in Iraq are murderers, because it is a nation that never wanted you there, never posed a threat and most of all: Never threatened you. I gave examples, which you did not read. So I am going to regurtitate it again.
Turn you in: Again: FOR WHAT?! You are not there, never were there! So what the DEVIL would I do that for? Answer. Now. Oh thats right, you CANT! Your basing it on UNGROUNDED terms and nothing more. You did not read a word I said other than what you needed to form propaganda so here it goes again: Your skimming, big mistake. When in politics, skimming gets you in a HEAP of trouble. Now then: Prove to me I accused YOU of letting the looting happen. Prove it. Oh thats right, YOU CANT! You even gave me MORE evidence to prove you did not! By saying you were not there! You just dug your own grave.
Your sarcasm does not fit at all, I do not know what planet you live on, but the bulk of this nation cannot afford that "median" you talk about. Also, the median is named by the government. So they can fiddle with it, remember, you even said this: the government is corrupt. So would they NOT fudge the numbers to make it sound like that 40,000 a year which is actually less than that after taxes is a good thing? Open your eyes. Also, you must live on A LOT of wal-mart and other junk from dollar general if you can get by on that amount. Thus Wal-Mart is the nations largest and still growing store based corporation.
Fighting: Yeah ok whatever, taxes are given allocation in my state immediately. Since I do not pay the federals taxes I avoid the war tax. How? By staying on the reservation. I can get gas from a native american owned gas station whose gas comes from native american owned oil companies in my state. I avoided them. So you see, I am not funding them at all. My state is doing a heck of a lot of work, so much that they are asking the fed to make up for the differance. So in the end: 0 of MY dollars going to an illegal war. Gotta love the reservation!
Interpretation: What is there to interpet? Freedom of speech, right to life and liberty, the freedom to assemble, election of officials, no taxation without representation, etc. There is nothing to interpret, if we had to interpret something so simple, we are MORONS! BACKA! Besides which, you fail to realize that if they would just listen to the people, like many thousands have, they would quickly help the people change things. Or not if they WANT this kind of corruption to keep going on and on. Well if the military (as I stated and state AGAIN since you did not read it) is supposed to support a constitution, has not a clue what it means, and have no right to challange their government when it goes against it: then no one has the right. No one. When your supposed to... oh screw it, I said this already in my last post, just read it.
Stealing an election by a LARGE margin will cause war, people will not stand for it. However if you can change a 5% victory for your enemy, to a 1% victory for you... Well you just won and made it look like a close call. That is why they like to put up these: "Oh look! He/she won by 2 votes! 500 votes! 1000 votes! So close!!" Even though its bull. You do not steal an election by making it a 10-20% differance, that will garner worldwide attention. 1% differances, or small 500 vote "wins" are what keep people docile.
50% of the USA does not vote according to a documentary I saw back in 2003. I would say that most is because they no longer care, or think it no longer matters. When people have no hope, they dont bother. Why would they? Hope is what people run off of.
Mass media: WRONG! I never said "Mass media" YOU DID! I was talking about using what is available to get messages out: independent radio and the last TV channel: FSTV (free speech TV) along with the few newspapers, magazines, and other such groups that still exist. You fail to realize the "mass media" is on the elites sides and telling the truth would get them strung up by their balls overnight.
Prove to you the people...: 151 million, yeah right, people want him IMPEACHED! I want him impeached AS WELL! However I also think the military should take a stand against them, and not enough have. Besides, the people prefer it peaceably because they still have a chance right now, why bother asking the military? 2008/9 will decide this matter. Force vs. peaceable methods. How many want the military OUT of Iraq? Just look at the nationwide protests, the DC protest held just this year, not everyone can drop their 4 jobs and ship into DC to protest you know. Unlike Germany which has concentration of population, we are a very, very VAST nation, it is HARD to get people across the nation to attend a two day rally. Especially when they have to work.
Citing the dictionary websites: hmmm.... so you did not read them? I read the defenitions of these forces, and then added historical referance. I know what they are. You posted it for essentially nothing. Why bother posting common knowledge? Or what can be easily gathered from the household dictionary... assuming you even have one. I have a very, very old civil war erra one I still use once in a while, and a newer websters dictionary. I need not post citations for definitions when you can go look it up. I am not posting common knowledge or what can be gathered by simply picking up a book.
Blob-o-tex: I use emphasis, you do not. That a crime? If so, by whos rules? Yours apparently, no one elses.
PROPAGANDA!: Ok, so a documentary showing you first hand evidence is propaganda? Great! I guess it has to have a CNN or MSNBC then again FOX stamps of approval on it. Not happening, as stated earlier if these groups (the mass media) did that on what is true: (again) they would be strung up by their balls before tomorrow morning. They would essentialy self nuder themselves.
H2H forum: why because you want to let loose of civility? I am being civilized here, not interested in a "bloody up someone" forum which shows barbarity. This talk has everything to do with this topic and I shall stand by my words for all time. Also, I do not care at all for judging, this is a discussion not a test. If this was a test I would drive to the nearest city and visit one of the republican HQ's and duke it out with some democrats, republicans and greens.
You cannot by any means "relieve" me of my notions, at all, and no one else can either. Live with it. If you do not like how this topic is going, you can opt to quit. No one is going to stop you. I suggest you get over your ego and just walk away if you do not like how I talk.
Friends: you are not a friend, never were, never will be. Not much care to ever even have the notion of having someone like you for a friend let alone an associate either.

So in retrospect: No thank you, I do not care for competition which you apparently thrive on. I am talking about a video and actions here on a topic, you want to start a fight. No. I will not partake in a fuedal fight over someone elses spilt milk. As stated vaga: if you do not like how I talk, just hit the IGNORE button on the left side of your screen, or just walk away.
Continued------->

So let me do us both a favor since you will not and save everyone here on ATS especially the moderators and end the discussion between us. I WILL NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES BUDGE FROM WHAT I HAVE SAID! There, that is clear now. You will not budge either, and I dont care. So for the sake of ATS, and since this topic is dead, why bother? If you want to keep fighting, fine. Go ahead. I might bite back a few more times and claw at you, but I have lost my interest. You call my sources propaganda, so I can only guess what you do NOT call propaganda and have, so I am done for today.

I think the military rubbed off on your eagerness to start fights. H2H comment really did not help you out any.

Last bit of advice: please, for everyones sake, get over your ego. It really hurts your position. Your no better than me nor anyone else. You are not superior to anyone, your just as lowly as the rest of us.

Originally posted by Vekar
Learn this quickly, and you might just learn how the english language works.

Friendly advice: spell check before lecturing people on their language skills. Glass houses and such.

Turn you in: Again: FOR WHAT?! You are not there, never were there! So what the DEVIL would I do that for? Answer.

I answered you last time. You insinuated that I personally had stood silently by while my fellow Marines committed crimes. I was actually rather impressed with how many times the word "you" managed to appear in that brief little snippet. Were you not an American, I might accept the copout you are hoping to take, that you were referring to Americans, the context being what it is, it seems most likely that you were charging me as a member of the armed forces when you said

How about some of these movies that have floated around showing the US military looting sites? Not sure where they are now, 2 years later but I saw 2 of them. Want more proof: the Iraqi museums... oh wait! There gone! Everything was looted! Now you say: That was the Iraqis not US! WRONG! You never held the good of the people in mind, ever. If you did you would have protected their heritage,

If not, pray tell who exactly you believed would be reading this post which would make a direct address appropriate.

So would they NOT fudge the numbers to make it sound like that 40,000 a year which is actually less than that after taxes is a good thing?

Look at it objectively. Median isn't some magic made up figure that the government decides upon. It's determined mathematically. Use that dictionary you were bragging about- the definition is quite absolute.
The average American either has a poor standard of living or they do not. Most rational people would say the average American has a pretty decent standard of living. So where exactly is your argument?
Not that I need to take the government's word for it: I live on less than 1/4th of that at the moment and you'd never know it by looking at me. I work for a decent room, I know how to shop and cook instead of shoving 4.95 worth of fries down my throat at every meal, and I don't have to spend money to entertain myself.

Yeah ok whatever, taxes are given allocation in my state immediately.

If you are contributing money to any part of your state's budget, you are making it possible for them to afford their national guard, period.
"oh, it wasn't my dollar, it was my neighbors dollar that bought the bullet". That doesn't matter. If you hadn't paid those taxes they would have had to reallocate money from other purposes and they wouldn't be able to support the war.

Interpretation: What is there to interpet?

Are you that unrefined or is this strictly posturing? Do you really have no appreciation for the subtlties of law? You have made the stolen election a part of your argument. Do you believe that every E-1 in the military is qualified to review Bush v Gore with due respect to precedent and determine the validity of orders from this CinC?
Nevermind the questions over the unitary executive, the controvery over the legislative veto, the standing of international law in relation to American law, and countless other factors which would be decisive on various arguments for or against the war. Most of them are certainly intelligible, but I wouldn't want just any dude fresh off Paris Island to be making those calls, especially when he had a rifle and the fate of our country in his hands.

Besides which, you fail to realize that if they would just listen to the people,

Ah, the good old "me the people" argument. How many people have signed off on your opinion?

Stealing an election by a LARGE margin will cause war, people will not stand for it.

Even changing the election by a small margin would cause a war, that's what I'm trying to tell you. The stunt that Bush pulled never would have worked if people like you would stop going into hibernation in November. Just fill your gas tank all the way up so that you can get to your polling place without having to pay any taxes by stopping for gas, and try quarterbacking on sunday for a change, or tuesday as the case may be.

Mass media: WRONG! I never said "Mass media" YOU DID! I was talking about using what is available to get messages out: independent radio and the last TV channel: FSTV (free speech TV) along with the few newspapers, magazines, and other such groups that still exist.

You are quibbling over diction. You have failed to challenge the point. Show me this overwhelming demand you speak of which is unquestionably the clear, actionable will of the majority, whatever the hell kind of media it is from.

Prove to you the people...: 151 million, yeah right, people want him IMPEACHED! I want him impeached AS WELL!

Many do, and I'm among them, but with no solid numbers and no clear demand that's hardly grounds to insist that the military should orchestrate a coup. I cannot believe that someone who claims to want freedom could bring himself to utter the words.

2008/9 will decide this matter.

Having your cake and eating it to I see. What's so special about the next election that this 6 point swing from corruption you mentioned wont be able to touch it? Funny how you admit to my points when its convenient. I can see why you don't want to debate.

Citing the dictionary websites: hmmm.... so you did not read them? I read the defenitions of these forces,

Actually you completely made up your own which sounded very little like the dictionary definitions. You made money the end-all-be-all of mercenary status, completely omitting the requirement of foreign service which 2 of 3 definitions included, and you also neglected the part where it specifically says a soldier fights for a cause.

the household dictionary... assuming you even have one.

Nope, I don't. I didn't spend all that time making this computer servicable again just to go off and buy a library worth of stuff that I can get for free online. Welcome to the future. You can return your generations out of date sources to Granny Clampet.

Blob-o-tex: I use emphasis, you do not. That a crime? If so, by whos rules? Yours apparently, no one elses.

Well, I didn't really want to throw a book at you, but since you ask...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

PROPAGANDA!:

Brother, I've seen Bowling for Columbine and Ferentheit 9/11. Yes, propaganda. If that is not the case for the others, who don't you reconstruct the arguments instead of just saying "see this" "see that". Such references suggest that they make strictly pathological appeals which are difficult to recreate in a reasoned discussion.

H2H forum: why because you want to let loose of civility? I am being civilized here, not interested in a "bloody up someone" forum which shows barbarity.

Bloody up nothing. You have repeatedly accused me of doding questions and ignoring evidence, you have presented extremely poor evidence yourself, you have shown a complete lack of skill and style in the art of rhetoric, and I think if you didn't know deep down that you'd be roundly trounced that you'd be willing to subject our discourse to the review of a neutral 3rd party and have these various charges borne out or disproven.

You cannot by any means "relieve" me of my notions,

You are rather staunch in your incorrect positions, I'll give you that.

I suggest you get over your ego and just walk away if you do not like how I talk.

On both counts, you certainly don't know me very well.

Friends: you are not a friend, never were, never will be.

Well you may not be my friend but I'm yours. You should take things less personal. I'd hate to see my newest addition to my friends list have a heart attack. Afterall, if all this ugliness wasn't just friendly ribbing, that would make us both rather assenine wouldn't it? I don't think I want to be assenine, so I'm gonna call it all in good fun from my end.

I am talking about a video and actions here on a topic,

Thanks for clearing that up, because from your posts so far, I don't think anybody had a clue what you were talking about.

you want to start a fight. No. I will not partake in a fuedal fight over someone elses spilt milk.

Feudal does not relate to a feud little buddy. Feudal is where poor folks like me work your land for your benefit and are little better than slaves for it. You can just say feud or fight. The redundancy is redundant.

if you do not like how I talk, just hit the IGNORE button on the left side of your screen, or just walk away.

Nah, that's alright. I still love ya, even if you are quite nearly as coarse as I and wrong about virtually everything.

Don't take it personally brother. A lot of my friends need to be brought back to reality now and then.

5) Most of all, do not use ALL CAPS in posts and thread titles.
Prove I did this, you cannot, why? I used emphasis and said so, which you did not get. Also you failed to understand the english language once again: You failed to realize that in english we can: highlight, bold, large bold (which I prefer) and use ? and ! to make points known. I was not talking about spelling. Stop twisting things. You accuse me on the grounds of nothing. Oh and I frankly do not really care about spelling online, it means nothing becuase online talking means nothing. Talking to people in real life means something. I come on here to test things.
Turn you in...: AGAIN! FOR WHAT!? You dodge and dodge on that one or try and make it look like I am accusing you of things. Nope. I am refering to you as a supporter of their actions, being that if YOU (vaga) cared about the Iraqis you would have protected their nation more. You (vaga) did not by not even announcing objection to such things thus far. This is a support vs. do not support issue. Take your side. I do not support such actions as allowing looting to happen, I made that clear in the real world. How about you?
So let me show you what I AM accusing you of: being someone who has an inflated ego and thinks the soldier/mercenary armies are neigh infallible and a very just and upright group of people. Which is dead wrong.
I accuse you of nothing when it comes to participation untill you either tell me you support such actions or do not. Yet that is not the point of this debate (yes it is) but to decide the meaning of the word: warrior. Which your people are NOT. Yes your people, you like to say how they are "our" so I said they are not MINE but YOURS. Thus I say YOURS not OURS. English language works in funny ways does it not? Also you just self incriminated yourself, you need to edit your last "my fellow marines" because that is suicidal. It just proved WHY I used the words YOURS. So if your going to challange me on it, you might want to edit A LOT of what you have said.

1/4: You must not go anywhere but live in your apartment. If you actually lived on 1/4 of what the rest live off of your either: outright liar, or living in a dingy little hole and getting loads of outside help. Prices are going higher and higher in this nation, so for you to say that is neigh impossible. By the way, the reason you can afford food on that is probably because of food stamps if your on 1/4 of what the rest of the nation makes. Anyway, we are not talking about your life or my own. Side note to your "bought the bullet:" yeah my neighbor did, again, I live on a reservation where I pay no taxes.

Interpretation: If you think that "the freedom to bear arms, the freedom of speech" are not clear, your a fool. Freedom of speech=Freedom to say what you want, where you want. What is so hard to understand about the constitution? Dont tell me you cannot read it and understand it... It is the highest law in the nation, all laws are supposed (not anymore) based off of it. So wow. Keep chanting how we cannot interpret things... That goes back to the dark ages where people could not read and the clergy TOLD people what they should believe because NO ONE could challange them since no one could read the bible. Then people learned how and all heck broke loose. Everyone who is a US citizen has the RIGHT to know what the laws are and when they are broken have more than enough right to take action. Even a private (E-1) has that right.

Me the people: correction: WE the people. Signed off? Zero. Why? Never showed it to anyone, heck I thought it up during this "discussion" and am testing it out. Besides, why bother offering something like that when impeachment is being called for and people are going AWOL in greater numbers every year? No point at all. Why add beurocracy to things? I hate beurocracy! Thus I say people in the military must make a choice. The people vs. the government. Who do YOU side with?

Stolen: Wrong. Stole the first and second and not a thing happened. Again, you steal elections by making to look like it was DARN close so people will think that the election was NOT a scam. Untill you dig deep like Greg Palast has done. My state is one which was stolen, read the book: armed madhouse by: Greg Palast. You will find the Taos Native American presinct in there. Apparently the natives walked in to vote, but walked out WITHOUT voting... yeah right. Taos Pueblo is staunch anti-bush. Read the book, or watch the keynote film that came out if you can find it, it was on FSTV. Oh and as for your "where was I" I was right here in my presinct with my card waiting in line like everyone else.

Media: Overwhelming demand of WHAT? Now if you want to see truth, visit FSTV.org. go to indymedia.org/com. There are two places you can visit and see the truth, I suggest you do. Ah what the heck, you wont, you will call it propaganda. Also HARPERS magazine ran articles about people going AWOL this year, you can look them up.

Freedom: well you called my video evidence of Venezuela propaganda when it gave clear proof, so you have no proof either then unless it be propaganda.

Dictionary part 1: Mercenary and soldiers, I did not make up definitions. A mercenary is paid to fight for X party and must carry out X action for the check. Soldiers do the same only they represent an entity, a government. They are IN SERVICE TOO a government, and fight on their behalf. Warriors represent a PEOPLE, they protect a society, whilst your soldiers are fighting for the government. Thus they ARE NOT and NEVER WILL BE warriors. Rememer, mercenaries fight for a cause too: to get money. A soldier may fight for a cause, yet that can be opposite of what the people want. That is the case today.

Clampet, dictionary part 2: So we should burn all books, burn down all libraries and put it all online. Yeah great move, thats NAZISM-101. I have the civil war erra book because it is a collectors item, while on the other hand I use WEBSTERS DICTIONARY! Why? It is up to date with the newer terms. Also, if the power goes out and I am working, I can open my dictionary and keep working. You on the other hand will be UNABLE too. Things are written down for a reason: to preserve what was said or done. CD's can be wiped, computers erased or destroyed. Books on the other hand need a fire and a hand in getting INTO that fire.

Ego: Your comment on "trounced" proves this without the shadow of a doubt, as I said earlier: your not high and mighty. Your on the same level as all life forms that breath and talk. Your no better than anyone. Also you are attempting to goad me into a fight, which I said NO too. What part of NO do you not understand? This topic is doing just fine. Seems you like to be able to pass judgement on people a whole lot, and like to fight a whole lot... Not interested in fighting thank you. Not online where it does not matter. Again, you can try and get me to fight you on your playing field all you want, not going to happen. At all. I fight by my own rules and my own game. Not yours. Neutral 3rd party my rear.

I am staunch, I am bullheaded, the most bullheaded person you will ever meet in your life. Fact. I shall and will stand by my statements no matter what you, or anyone else says.

Fuedal: You got the english language wrong again, FUEDAL has become a metaphor for "lowly fighting." Your wish for a fight is exactly that: lowly fighting which I am not interested in. Now if I would have said: Fuedal SYSTEM! I would have been wrong, the fuedal system is a system based on the following pecking order:
king-lord-vassal-peasant/peon. In the fuedal system people are bound to the land, it is a highly primitive and unjust system. Thus I called your want for a fight "feudal" because it is unjustifiable and also PATHETIC and unworthy of anyones time. This is between me and you, no one else.

Continued....

Now to finish up (Again): Lastly to your statements of "friend and brother."
You can call me: friend, brother, father, uncle, grandpa and I wont care. At all. Because you are wrong. I am none of those things to the likes of you. And I am none of those things to you either, no matter what you say, do or think. I am none of them to you by any meens. You also have no clue what friends are, so look it up, you do not know what brothers are, so go look it up. You will find you cannot put me into any of those areas. You will find though I boarder more along the lines of ENEMY though. Anyway, call me what you want, your irrelevant. You are. So am I. So is everyone on ATS right now or anyone who ever will be. We are all irrelevant. Why? Because this is an online forum, not real life where it matters. As stated I come here to test things, and once in a while actually participate in discussions or offer my ideas. Right now I am testing. What better a place to test than someplace that does not matter what happens in the end? It was a logical decision for me and still is.
NOW THEN!! My interest hit an all time low, so I might respond one or two more times before saying goodbye.

As for your "need to be brought back" you are ever so wrong. I like where I am, you cannot change that, frankly I dont care about where you are on this whole thing. Also if you really DO love me... dont hug a rattlesnake... that is my only warning to you on that one. Anyway, believe what you want, think what you want about me. It will not change who I am, and I was never trying to change you. Because it does not matter, and never will. Anyway, done for now. Cant wait for your next "oh your scared of fighting me because" list of trollop. If that is all I see after the next reply, granted I will respond once and be done with this. Because it is not worth my time, and if you want to keep wasting YOUR time, that is YOUR decision. I will not.

I'd like to start by thanking you for the significant increase in carriage returns and significant decrease in caps that you have made even while nitpicking every point. It makes an appreciable difference. One question though in reference to your verbosity: when you say you may reply one or two more times, do you mean that you may reply to one or two more posts, or that you may make one or two more posts of your own in response? Just curious.

I will not continue to invite essays from you on semantic points- your words and the dictionary are there and your insistence is not of any consequence to the balance of facts, so I will spare you the need to stew over that anymore.

And as for friendship and rattlesnakes, let's not play that game. You won't be hurting me anymore than you will be backing up your authoritarian ideology in the real world. We both know that neither of us will hurt the other, no matter how venomously bitter you may be about the fact that I don't agree with these rather outrageous ideas you are "testing". We'll file all that under the catagory of cyber-toughguyism.

It's been a pleasure correcting you. If you choose not to reply, then fair thee well.

[edit on 8-5-2007 by The Vagabond]

dang it Vagabond!!!!




You beat me to this thread. I was going to mention spelling having something to do with the mastery of the english language. Although, my posts are usually filled with spelling errors. But for someone else to comment on things like (vekars comments) that when they are in clear violation of their own rules seems silly.

Vekar,

Warrior- WAR-rior. A person who engages in war. How are US Marines anything other than Warriors. Mercenaries. fight for any cause they get paid for, not just war.
Soldiers are warriors belonging to an organization. These warriors were soldiers with the United States Marine Corps. A division of the United States Navy.

Sad fact but the world is a dangerous place. nowhere in the univers will there only be good. The light. Like everything else life has yin and yang. Sometimes fire needs to ber met with fire. Thats why countries create militaries. It's a neccissary evil.

Oh and PS. I have a bunch of friends over in Iraq in the Marine Corp. Guess what. They care when they find out that they have shot and injured a innocent civilian. Every rod block where one gets killed. Everytime they shoot some shepherd thats acting like a forward observer or like he's arming an RPG, every time they shot at someone lurking in the shadows and found out it was a civilian. They care.

They feel bad about it and try to work out their feelings later on. Some talk to the chaplin. Others talk to their friends. others go hard on themselves and impose their own guilt. Others try to stow it all away and they break down crying many months later. Some go into a funk for a few days where they stare off into the distance and are difficult to get to respond to simple conversation until they snap out of it.

Frequently they fight with their superiors as hard as they can to get civilians treated at onbe of the bases and not out in the field by some medic who can't do all that much. They fight for the rights of the people they have accidently shot because they feel like they owe it to the person.

The sad fact is the rules of war say thaty you only need to provide the enemy or a collateral casualty (civilian) the same medical treatment they would recieve on their own....which usually amounts to no medical treatment if they so desire to call it that way. but, instead they go above and beyond and try to save the innocent. yeah their real skummy for that...sure.

Also, guess what. None of my friends have EVER, EVER expressed sympathy for anyone they've killed that deserved it or were acting hostile to them while engaged in combat.



[edit on 8-5-2007 by BASSPLYR]