Can anyone prove the existence of "The Human Soul"

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


you've proven nothing
all of those reactions are caused by internal releases of chemicals. when you experience love, chemicals release. when you experience fear, adrenaline releases to cause the feelings, religious ecstacy lines up with drug trips or psychotic episodes.

If my boss calls me via telephone, and tells me I'm fired, then I have a physical reaction to the news. My palms sweat, I become enraged or despondent, etc.

But were these caused by chemicals?

No, they were ulitmately caused by a non-chemical phone call. The fact that my self expresses its being using chemicals doesn't meant that this is the sum total what what human experience is.

Now you can claim that EVERYTHING I expereince is "just chemicals moving around," but only because you've already reduced existence to electrochemical impulses in your own world-view. you're puposefully excluding anything that MIGHT be non-chemical, since you don't believe in them, anyway.

It's called circular reasoning.

I aggree with your point, people everywhere a limiting, something that
has been proved by science to be virtually limitless. we only use 10% or
whatever the % is of our brains, yet we can allready do so much.

Really, chemicals being released and such can only go so far in explaining
the going ons of the human mind.

it's a myth that we only use 10% of our brain. no neurologist would back that statement.

name one function of the brain that isn't an electrochemical reaction.

I know this sounds corny and cliche. I realize that, and wanted to state that as a caveat of sorts before saying anymore.

We currently lack the ability to detect energies on the level of our souls. Our souls, I believe, exist in a higher dimension, interaction more heavily with the larger amount of our bodily mass (the so called "dark matter" of the universe). I see us as the tip of the iceberg.

Most of this is conjecture, and since i think in terms of probability, this really doesn't represent my belief. It does represent a theory that i like, however.

To those to can "see", the soul is obvious. There seems to be a somewhat holographic effect of the human body.

Consider the process of a Hemispherectomy, in which half the brain is removed. Often, you can remove half of the brain, half of the neurons/synapses. But, the result is merely physical disability localized to the side opposite the hemisphere removed. Humor, intellect, personality is still completely intact:

Most patients who have undergone this procedure will have neurons from the remaining hemisphere take over the tasks from the lost hemisphere by making new neural connections. One case, demonstrated by Smith & Sugar, 1975; A. Smith 1987, showed that one patient with this procedure had completed college, had attended graduate school and scored above average on intelligence tests. Another study done by Johns Hopkins University medical team, reflecting on 58 child hemispherectomies they performed, all the reports showed that most children continued on with little or no change to their memory, personality, and humor after removal of either brain hemisphere. (Vining & Others, 1997)

en.wikipedia.org...

In particular is one individual who had a radical version of this (not the "functional hemispherectomy). Luckily, hydrocephalus hasn't been an additional calamity for him, and he now has completed graduate school. He had to have a plate put in where his skull use to be. Yeah, it was a little malformed, but he hadn't lost a bit of "smarts".

To me, this indicates a stroage place for information outside the brain. Memories are not confined within the brain, as evidenced by the above. So, where do these memories and thoughts issue forth from? What truly controls our personalities?

Tesla was convinced that we are automatons merely living out a script, locked into the series of cause and effect relationships that create the logic of the universe. Gordon Novel supports this claim, as does Dan Burisch (to some extent):

Patriots in the sense that the United States is gonna evolve along with the rest of the nations of the world into some type of new, what we call New Earth Order, a better system of, ah, of how things work which is not necessarily a world government but probably is more like a system where the future is known. God writes the scripts before, time passes, and he knows... In most of your religions they claim that God knows the past, the present and the future. Well if he knows the future it’s because he wrote the script. If you can see the script, then all you can do is live the script. So that’s what we believe happens, that the forward time scanning capabilities of the technology allow governments to not have to be governments, because there’s no need for decisions by bureaucrats. You don’t need ‘em to tell you how to live. It’s all written out how it’s gonna be. All aliens, or extraterrestrials... I don’t like to use the word alien... extraterrestrial civilizations probably all go through the exact same revolution. Oil seems to be a part of the evolution of planets to get their energy and then the oil is no longer needed because it creates problems like the global warming problems that we have today.

www.projectcamelot.net...

This is a pretty interesting point of view. I would say that either Mr. Novel knows things that we don't, or he is providing us with a supposition meant to stimulate conversation.

I posit that the brain is the intermediary between us in the reality sense, and "us" in the terms of our soul. Lobsang Rampa considers this as our "overself", or that which is truly us. The physical body is a vessel meant for experience via the Universal Wavefront, or the "Moire Arena", to use a friends terminology.

You can't currently prove the existance of a soul, but you can see that there must be something similar to such to account for our ability relative to personality and intellect/memory. Our brain is obviously not the source of our intellect, our personality. If not in our brain, then from where?

[edit on 6-5-2007 by bigfatfurrytexan]

Some excellent points here. Your eyes use the optic nerve to pass on the nervous impulses from everything you see to the visual centre of the brain which is IN TOTAL DARKNESS. Your ears and pass on their impulses to the auditory centres of the brain which is in SILENCE. Your chemoreceptors and Pacini corpuscles pass on their impulses to the brain which is in TOTAL ISOLATION.

Who reconstructs the environment around you?

Moreover, when you see something it is projected to the brain like a film in the cinema you are watching the movie but WHO watches the movie?

Is it the soul or an epiphenomenological construct? This is the crucial question.

Perhaps only the soul exists and God creates a matrix for us which is similar to a 3-D visual reality.

I have to ask you a question. How can you prove to me beyond doubt that YOU EXIST? - let alone the soul.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
I Consider the process of a Hemispherectomy, in which half the brain is removed. Often, you can remove half of the brain, half of the neurons/synapses. But, the result is merely physical disability localized to the side opposite the hemisphere removed. Humor, intellect, personality is still completely intact

"An intracarotid amobarbital test, also called a WADA test, or functional MRI, may be done to determine which hemisphere is dominant for critical functions such as speech and memory. During this test, each hemisphere is alternately injected with a medication to put it to sleep. While one side is asleep, the awake side is tested for memory, speech, and ability to understanding speech."

link

So they make sure they don't remove your personality and memories

That did not say personality. it said speech and memory. Memory is the ability to recall certain functions and thoughts, placed coherently in the correct order to be able to discern their meaning/relation.

I am talking about where these thoughts are stored. Where are they stored at?

Note also, its states "which hemisphere is dominant". This doesn't mean exclusive, only dominant and dominance can equal only 51%. Also, bear in mind that the left side of the brain is always called the "dominant" side, as a general rule. Dr. Wada merely noticed that in some, the left side was not functioning as the "dominant" side (about 1/3 of all left handed people, of which i am a part), so he wanted to see how do determine which hemisphere was responsible for speech/memory, which one was not. You notice that, bilaterally, the brain is somewhat symmetrical. This symmetry indicates that both hemispheres were built similarly, yet their functional execution is altered (making 2 uses for 1 machine, bascially).

I would point out that the Wada test is being phased out in preference for fMRI, which is less invasive and carries less risk. You can see a brief synopsis here, once again at Wiki (i don't like Wiki...but they are in good with Google and I am lazy when searching for reference). As well, note the fMRI is not synonymous with the Wada test, but represents a different test with a different clinical process.

en.wikipedia.org...

Of particular interest from this article is:

Although the patient may not be able to talk, sometimes their ability to sing is preserved. This is because music and singing utilizes a different part of your brain than speech and language. Most people with aphasia are able to sing, and even learn new songs (as in the case of Cesero Rota, klawans, 2002).

So, speech can be lost, but singing can be maintained? Where are the word associations kept? Well, first you must keep in mind that when you say "speech" center, you are using an overly bland descriptive. Speech center could include all sort of localities of mechanics of the process, including the ability to physically form the words (move the tongue, throat, etc) or the ability to associate words together.

For reference, search "Wernicke's aphasia" and "Broca's aphasia".

So, from all indications, the brain doesn't store word memory. It does store word association, conceptualization, and physical command.

Do we have evidence of any memory being stored in the brain? Any thought? Larger brains do not yeild smarter individuals (unlike larger muscles to strength). It is blatantly obvious that there is something behind the brain that makes up the mind. If there is a soul, this would be it.

I think that says it all. If memory could conceivably lie in cells, where could it be?

Originally posted by Heronumber0
I think that says it all. If memory could conceivably lie in cells, where could it be?

Probably in a complex network of interconnected synapses...

That is a good question, and i think it deserves a thread all of its own.

That notwithstanding, i would say that there are many theories of this, including the debunked and discredited (yet not completely dead) theory of microtubules combined with something akin to ORMUS (monoatomic gold/copper/silver, etc) being responsible for "awareness".

I think this is somewhat silly on its basic premise, but the underlying principles are intriguing to me. I think "awareness" comes from the ability of the brain to link up with who/what we really are. Our memories and thoughts are not awareness individually, but rather collectively.

What if reality is nothing but a line of 1 and 0 that our mind comprehends and turns into a 3d "reality"? Doesn't this fit nicely with the concept of waveforms in physics? Light is a wave until observed, at which point you collapse the wavefunction and create matter from potential, right? Yeah, it is an analogy with rough edges...but you get the point.

There are many, many points to ponder along these lines. And, much is at stake. Such as, what causes one to cease being a "construct" to be begin being a "creature"? Constructs are food, while creatuers should be preserved.

"Most types of memory appear to be stored in the cortex. Different areas of cortex specialize in different kinds of information, so that visual information about the Statue of Liberty may be stored in one location (e.g., the inferior temporal cortex), while information about its associations to liberty and immigration might be stored in another (e.g., the frontal cortex). High linkage between these two areas means that seeing a picture of the Statue of Liberty can retrieve memory about its associations. At the same time, damage to specific areas of cortex can produce specific memory deficits. For example, damage to a specific region within the temporal lobe can produce a memory deficit in which the patient loses knowledge about "living things" (e.g. dogs, lions, birds) but maintains knowledge about other categories (e.g. inanimate objects such as furniture and utensils)."

link

"Not much is known about the physiology of long-term memory, although scientists speculate that the hippocampus is involved in the creation of long-term memory. It is unclear where long-term memories are stored, although there is some evidence that a single memory may be broken down into various elements and stored in many places at once. As Irving Kupferman explains, "long-term memories are stored in multiple regions throughout the nervous system. (In other words, they are not localized but stored through circuitry)" (7). Furthermore, "reflexive and declarative memory formation may involve different circuits in the brain. Reflexive memory relies on the cerebellum and amygdala; formative, on the hippocampus and temporal lobes."

link

So we know little about it yet, but all the evidence we have shows it happens in the brain not in a soul

Originally posted by melatonin

Probably in a complex network of interconnected synapses...

Honestly, i do not mean this in a rude sort of way...i am just blunt and straight forward: Did you read the thread, or just the last post? It would seem that synapses are merely the means for which to retrieve this knowledge.

If you did read, then please explain how the synapses, or entanglement of synapses, are responsible for memory. We have only evidence that the brain works when it comes to thought, but we cannot prove that it creates the thought, or if it is just integral in its retrieval (like the blinking light when your computer is retrieving info from the hard drive and putting it into RAM memory...the hard drive is your true memory and RAM is what is in the brain).

Originally posted by DarkSide
"Most types of memory appear to be stored in the cortex. Different areas of cortex specialize in different kinds of information, so that visual ...


...So we know little about it yet, but all the evidence we have shows it happens in the brain not in a soul

The evidence shows nothing of the sort. The evidence does show that the brain works in a fractured sort of way. It also shows that, when running optimally, it prefers fractured and disjointed data retrieval. This is likely due to optimization reasons, allowing for the brain to access and process information in locations that make for either higher efficiency of processing, or greater access to the input regions. For example, if i am retrieving a thought about a camel, i will use the more visual segments of the brain to retrieve it so that i can properly envision it. Similarly, i would not want the Aritmetic Logic Unit doing data parsing in my Dell Dimension pc, would I?

There is much, much that we do not know. You are correct in this assertion. However, i would say that (like most science) it is popular to interpret the facts rigidly in only one way, thus excluding many tangible possibilties from consideration. This normally leads us down the wrong path.

The brain is the least understood. Why? Could it possibly be that we are examining from the standpoint of hardware only, ignoring the software that actually causes it to run?

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
Honestly, i do not mean this in a rude sort of way...i am just blunt and straight forward: Did you read the thread, or just the last post? It would seem that synapses are merely the means for which to retrieve this knowledge.

And this 'knowledge' will eventually be shown to be held/formed in the same synapses.

Where do you think it is? In some quantum-woo realm?

ABE:Is this where personality resides too? What about people with lesions to the ventromedial PFC?

[edit on 6-5-2007 by melatonin]

I don't know where it is. That is the difference between individuals such as myself, and science in general. I don't mind stating i don't know...i just DO know that memories are not in the synapses. Did you read my previous posts?

Quantum woo world...call it what you will There is solid science backing the principle as well. Do you think that what you see is all that exists? Luckily, X Ray technicians don't carry a similar belief.

Look up concepts such as Akashic Record, bicameral minds, and tetradimensional reality. The latter is not too easy to grasp for all...here is a nice library of articles dealing with it:

tetraspace.alkaline.org...

A nice flash animation that helps make sense of it, too:

www.tenthdimension.com...







[edit on 6-5-2007 by bigfatfurrytexan]

I'm not excluding other possibilities. But to me the idea that the brain is the cause of all mental activity and nothing survives death seems the most logical of all. I have yet to see concrete proof that this is not the case. While your argument about hemispherectomy is very interesting, since we don't know exactly how the brain works we can't either be sure that it's evidence for a soul.

Originally posted by DarkSide
I'm not excluding other possibilities. But to me the idea that the brain is the cause of all mental activity and nothing survives death seems the most logical of all. I have yet to see concrete proof that this is not the case. While your argument about hemispherectomy is very interesting, since we don't know exactly how the brain works we can't either be sure that it's evidence for a soul.

The problem with hemispherectomy is that it leaves room for a lot of plasticity to take up what the other hemisphere was specialised for. So, you might lose the right DLPFC, but you have the left DLPFC to take up the higher executive functions the right may have specialised in.

I'd like to know where he wants to go with the personality thing though. I meet a lot of patients with damage to the frontal lobe who do suffer massive changes in personality, but still possess their intellect.

Does personality reside outside the brain?

[edit on 6-5-2007 by melatonin]

Another question :

If personality resided outside of the body, how do you explain that drugs affect your personality??

Originally posted by DarkSide
I'm not excluding other possibilities. But to me the idea that the brain is the cause of all mental activity and nothing survives death seems the most logical of all. I have yet to see concrete proof that this is not the case.

What about this discovery? Is that enough evidence that the mind is independent of the brain?

[edit on 6-5-2007 by TheBandit795]

Originally posted by DarkSide
Another question :

If personality resided outside of the body, how do you explain that drugs affect your personality??

There's lots of reasons why we can discard such woo. Ramachandran had an interesting split-brain patient, if one hemisphere was asked whether god exists, he said 'yes', the other hemisphere said 'no', heh.

Lots of exotic conditions out there. But to answer your question, usually you'll get the 'brain is receiver of quantum-woo soul' answer...

Originally posted by DarkSide
I'm not excluding other possibilities. But to me the idea that the brain is the cause of all mental activity and nothing survives death seems the most logical of all. I have yet to see concrete proof that this is not the case. While your argument about hemispherectomy is very interesting, since we don't know exactly how the brain works we can't either be sure that it's evidence for a soul.

You most certainly CAN call it evidence. "Proof"? No, but "evidence"? Yes.

"Personality" does reside outside the brain. Keep in mind, however, when speaking about "brain" you are speaking about a complex device. As well, when regarding personality, you are referring to several elements interacting with each other to create the personage we all see. When i say "personality", i refer to something much, much deeper. Since personality in the human relation is dependant on neurochemical response, it has no bearing on the true personage of our "overself".

Frontal lobe injury is one such example. Consider the commercial for SOCOM, and the one guy was standing in place, spinning in circles shooting. The other guys in the game were wondering what the heck was happening. Behind the scenes, the kid controlling that character was distracted by a girl.

The same thing can happen with us. Imagine that the controller were broken...you might then run in circles, or not be capable of jumping? Same thing...if the frontal lobe is damaged, one might lose the ability to respond appropriately to the stimuli surrounding them.

The brain DOES affect the behavior and ability of the body, but this is due to the "overself's" inability to control the biological machine with a broken controller.

I am speaking metaphorically. It is easier to convey my concepts this way. Please don't read too much into the analogy and more into the underlying concept.