USS Nimitz Forced Iran's Decision

Originally posted by subz
What a flying start, no arrogance there...

Call it like it is, besides the overtone might have been arrogant but the post wasn't pointless.

Originally posted by subz
Then why are you acting so high and mighty like you're convinced OTHER PEOPLE are wrong when you don't have ANYTHING to back it up with.

Excuse me? I wasn't the one claiming a missile which had never been fired in combat could not be intercepted. I have a fairly high degree of confidence in the systems designed to counter this missile due to testing and evaluation as well as limited operational deployment.

Originally posted by subz
You're entitled to speculate just as much as the next man.

Speculation is all we have unless this exact scenario takes place, however given open source material, real world events and some logical reasoning it is not a far stretch to consider that your view is the one most likely to occur. Arrogance? Don't think so, especially when some of the counter arguments are just not true.

Originally posted by subz
Ah yes, the great mystery machines argument again.

Nothing mysterious about it just OPSEC. Even most service members are not fully aware of the true capabilities a given systems might have, let alone the general public. In the military world, not all the information will be available for consumption.

Originally posted by subz
Well let's bet your house on whether or not the Sunburn missile can be intercepted shall we? Are you that confident? You seem to be.

Confident that it can be physically intercepted? Yes I am, I'd bet my life on it that given certain circumstances it can be destroyed.

Originally posted by subz
Can't you accept that there are simply missiles that cannot be intercepted?

In this context there is no such thing, ALL missiles can be intercepted, maybe not all the time but nothing is invaluable. In order to prove otherwise a missile would have to demonstrate constant success in all environments and conditions against ALL known countermeasures against it. Given that as I said before this missile has never been fired in combat much less demonstrated that capability, even during tests, it cannot be considered invulnerable, in the military world there is no such thing. Circumstances and factors can make something relatively successful but never 100% reliable.

Originally posted by subz
Is it not the case that missile defences are woefully inadequate?

One missile defense system by itself may be inadequate but the layered defense systems is better prepared than the missile it faces. Consider, before we even get to hard point countermeasures you have planning and training, then we go to platform systems such as submarines (patrol/land attack), ships (picket defense/land attack) airplanes (CAP) etc... Then we get to the layered point defense; SM-2, ESSM, Sea RAM and Phalanx meanwhile through all of that you have the constant influence of EW and hard decoys. As I said before, nothing is 100% but the threat of these cruise missiles can be negated to a great degree, while maybe not entirely eliminated.

Originally posted by subz
How about MIRVs? I suppose they can be successfully intercepted by American mystery weapons as well...right?

They're not that mysteries but yeah MIRV's can be intercepted, however like most things is depends and it is a complicated topic given the range of technology in covers.


EDIT: Majic, I did not see your post while typing the reply, I understand that this distracts from the OP's topic. This is why if anyone wants to discuss this specific topic further feel free to see me in the Weaponry forum.

[edit on 5-4-2007 by WestPoint23]

The Best Defense

Sigh. It seems we have missiles on the brain. Oh well, I don't want to over-moderate, and this is a member-driven community, so what the heck.

On the topic of that GW1 Silkworm anecdote, I would like to point out one very important thing that seems to have perhaps not gotten the consideration it deserves.

It missed.

You don't need to shoot it down if it doesn't hit the target.





[edit on 4/5/2007 by Majic]

Personally I think t' Nimitz deployment is a coincidence bit of a big move a carrier battle-group for 15 insignificant non US nationals. Besides Iran doesn't seem to take too much notice of the other Battle-groups in the area so would one more make a difference?

There again maybe the Iranians were defecating themselves in-case the US tried a rescue mission and killed everyone in Persia with an accidental "Blue on Blue" event

Really though what could the UK do? Go to war with Iran? Don't make me laugh. They are stretched protecting the little provinces under their charge world-wide. The UK forces are good but like a decent jam on cheap bread, spread too thinly.

I think the gutless diplomacy helped but the major factor was the real power in Iran the Ayatollah. I think Ave-a-dinner-jacket planned the whole thing knowing his moment of glory would be increased by the fact that the national holiday meant know "Senior" intervention. Strange to note that the rest of Iran took the holiday serious enough to do nothing but the Republican Guard were not too worried about it.

Ave-a-dinner-jacket played tough while he could...the inference being the UK troops were hostage really IMHO.

I think the real important thing here is why it happened. Someones ass needs kicking. How can, what was it 8 gunboats, sneak up on 2 inflatables with, apparently no warning, no intervention by air.....or bigger boats?

It strikes me that it is the usual gutless political rules of engagement and fear of escalation. Maybe Blair engineered it to take the heat off back home, who knows? But knowing that the Iranians have done things like this before I can not believe that the RN was not better prepared for such eventualities. Something smells here.

Ultimately it proved the ineffectiveness of the UN, because of the national interests of China and Russia and the ineptitude and failure of the once proud RN.

Bizarrely it is the kidnapping wrong-doer who comes out smelling of roses. They could have and should have escorted the RN force away from the waters. They knew they were wrong, that's why they took the forces away...bargaining chips. It took the Iranians 3 attempts to give coordinates that actually put the RN force in Iranian waters. The case did not hold water.

1) So you get a positive bit of publicity for Ave-a-dinner-jacket and the kidnapping Republican Guard.

2) An obviously useless UN, I really think its time is coming to an end. The very fact that it is an alleged democratic organisation makes it anti Islamic and Islam is on its way to be the majority belief on this globe.

3) The final proof that the UK ain't a world power anymore. The world has known that for some time, now the UK knows too. Once a big fish in the pond now maybe a bit of algae.

Well done all

westpoint stop insulting the servicemen of 16 years ago

the kit they had in 1991 was state of the art with the best training to use it


complete and total rubbish

i can quote blocks and blocks of text but theres no point.


the missile shot at the same firstly was the same vintage as the exocet(s) that hit the british ships 16 years earlier - so the `updated` systems still didn`t work - and the OHP in 1991 had SM2 - can`t beleieve you thought otherwise

but it still missed (chaff fired caused the missile to miss not a missle) and it was still intercepted by the ship on the far side.

i am disappointed that someone who claims they want to join the service is so insulting of the veterans of GW1.

And I can post tons of information showing that the OHPs had the SM-1 removed in 2003, due to them retiring the -1MR for the -2ER. The OHPs all carried the SM-1MR until well after GW1.

The United States' active long-hull Perrys are being modified to reduce operating costs. The Detroit Diesel electrical generators are being replaced with modern Caterpillar units and the forward Mk 13 single arm missile launcher is being removed because the missile it is meant to fire, the Standard SM-1MR has outlived its service life. It would be costly to refit the SM-1MRs, which have marginal ability to bring down sea-skimming missiles. (One of the other reasons for the withdrawal is to conserve what little support remains for the SM-1MR, which is still used by countries such as Poland and Taiwan, for US allies that need it most.) With the removal of the Mk13 launcher the Perry FFG also loses Harpoon capability (although its SH-60 Seahawk helicopter complement can carry shorter-ranged Penguin anti-ship missiles) and their "zone-defence" AAW capability, and are reduced to a "point-defence" type of AAW armament. The Perrys had never been primarily AAW ships to begin with; the primary AAW ships of the US Navy are the Ticonderoga-class guided missile cruisers and Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyers.

en.wikipedia.org...

Armament: one Mk 13 guided missile launcher (36 Standard (MR) and 4 Harpoon missiles), one Mk 75 76mm/62 caliber rapid firing gun, MK 32 ASW torpedo tubes (two triple mounts), one Phalanx CIWS

navysite.de...

I have yet to find any information on the OHP class being upgraded to the SM-2. On the contrary, what I've found so far shows them having their Standard capability removed, because it would be TOO costly to upgrade from the -1 to the -2.

[edit on 4/6/2007 by Zaphod58]

It's perfectly legitimate for the U.S to detain persons and keep them in detention for years without due process and the right to contest their imprisonment, but when Iran detains 15 soldiers it believes were in it's waters with atleast a marginal mention of illegal activity on the part of the British, we scream murder?

Luxifero

The Price Of Freedom

Originally posted by Luxifero
It's perfectly legitimate for the U.S to detain persons and keep them in detention for years without due process and the right to contest their imprisonment, but when Iran detains 15 soldiers it believes were in it's waters with atleast a marginal mention of illegal activity on the part of the British, we scream murder?

Oh, it gets better: we get to torture them too, because we're the good guys!

Heck, even U.S. citizens aren't exempt. :shk:

It's really quite simple, you see.

In order to be free, we have to give up liberty.



"America may not always be right, but God bless her, she's never wrong." -- General Wombat, Wrong Is Right

I Can't Let This One Go

Originally posted by Harlequin
westpoint stop insulting the servicemen of 16 years ago

the kit they had in 1991 was state of the art with the best training to use it

Oh please, trying to change and spin the topic wont work, the OHP class in 1991 was definitely not the pinnacle of AAW technology, it was surpassed by other ships in the US and around the world. No insult, just reality. A frigate in the USN would never be the "best" in a given specialized field (this case AAW) since they are designed to be multipurpose escort ships.

Link 1

Originally posted by Harlequin
complete and total rubbish

Ok, whatever you say, if you can please show me otherwise.

Originally posted by Harlequin
the missile shot at the same firstly was the same vintage as the exocet(s) that hit the british ships 16 years earlier - so the `updated` systems still didn`t work -

You mean nine years earlier? Anyway, the Perry class was launched in the early 1970's and it was not (it still isn't BTW) retrofitted with the AEGIS combat system. The radar it had going into the Gulf was the same radar it was launched with. The ship in question USS Jarrett (FFG-33) was commissioned in 1981 before the Falklands war. I know what "upgrades" you're talking about but they never concerned the OHP class much less this ship in particular until after 1994, that is when the ships combat systems were upgraded. Until than all it has was it's basic radar, a single Block 0 Phalanx and the SM-1.

Originally posted by Harlequin
and the OHP in 1991 had SM2 - can`t beleieve you thought otherwise

Well believe it because it's true, they were never retrofitted with the SM-2. They used a single rail launch arm for the SM-1MR.

The Standard Missile is one of the most reliable in the Navy's inventory. Used against missiles, aircraft and ships, it first came into the fleet more than a decade ago. It replaced Terrier and Tartar missiles and is part of the weapons suit of more than 100 Navy ships. The SM-2 (MR) is a medium range defense weapon for Ticonderoga-class AEGIS cruisers, Arleigh Burke-class AEGIS destroyers, California and Virginia-class nuclear cruisers and Kidd-class destroyers with NTU conversions. Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates use the SM-1 MR.

Link

All 22 ships of the class to be retained in active service began to receive Standard SM-1 Block VIB missiles with improved fusing to counter small radar-cross-section missiles in 1994.

Link

Originally posted by Harlequin
i am disappointed that someone who claims they want to join the service is so insulting of the veterans of GW1.

I'm disappointed that you would stoop this low in order to try and make a point, everyone cans see right through it and I'm not interested.

[edit on 6-4-2007 by WestPoint23]

Westy is correct, the OHP's were never top of the line AAW ships and never had SM-2. In fact their rail launchers are now being removed since their AAW systems are now considered hopelessly obsolete - these days they are mostly used for drug interdiction and other non-frontline missions.

i think we've gone off topic here just a bit. The nimitz class carriers are super carrier (The US is the worlds only nation to have em) And in the past it has been used to settle diplomatic issues. This thing heading full steam towards the gulf probably did get Ahmadinejad's attention. And Im sure thats one reason why the US sent it. Cooler heads prevailed. Why else would we send a super carrier to that region? Its for a show of force. And to watch ahmadeinejad squirm.

[edit on 113030p://0104pm by semperfoo]

I am forced to agree with Semperfoo. We are a bit off topic here with missile technology and ships and what not.

In my opinion, the U.S.S. Nimitz Battle Group moving into the Persian Gulf certainly was something for the Iranians to mull over.

Missiles, smisshles, the NIMITZ is a super carrier more than capable of defending itself against the likes of Iranian offensive weapons.

--Deny Ignorance--