Demystifying the Phrases in Race-related talk, Pt. II

Originally posted by truthseeka
I'm sure you'll have no problem providing evidence of these anti-white posts and threads, then.

Will the one I just replied to do?

The people who have used this term on these boards (almost all white)

Care to prove we are all caucasion?

have used them because they can get away with this term more easily than saying ghetto culture or something.

And here you have concluded that all whites here think all blacks fit into to the ghetto stereotype.

Let's see you name these members.

Hope a link will surfice:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I remember a time when posters weren't preoccupied with what race they were talking to.. then one day long time respectable ATS members suddenly morphed into evil rednecks, nazis and clan members.

It's very stange that it happened overnight..

Originally posted by semperfortis
Do you feel we should avoid them, or discuss them more completely to come to a better understanding of the reason they are inflammatory?

Personally, I believe that it is the avoidance of discussing a term or phrase, the insistence on a phrase having one meaning and only one and not being willing to discuss terms that gives them their power.

So I think an honest discussion of a term or phrase is nothing but a Good Thing.

Everyone here, I am sure, is familiar with the limitations on free speech. One can not yell fire in a crowded theater, certain words are classified now as "fighting words", etc.

While I understand and essentially agree with safety related constraints on free speech (truly safety related, not politically motivated safety related - different subject ), I am in general opposed to constraints on free speech based on emotional impact. And yes, I've been on the receiving end of my share.

Using this as the template, should we as ATSer's avoid specific terms and if so, what terms would qualify as "Non ATS terms? Who would decide?

It gets a bit gray, here. Discussion as opposed to use of various terms or phrases. While I maintain a high regard for freedom of speech as noted above, it is clear to me that using some phrases or words, depending on where I am and to whom I'm speaking, results in less effective communication. So I frequently choose to constrain my speech. But it is my free choice.

(Example: At home, my speech is freely laced with, shall we say "colorful metaphors". At work, and in professional written communication, never.)

But those same terms can be discussed, I believe.

I really think this can be discussed on an intellectual level and not so much an emotional one.

Agreed.

If that takes "banning" certain words from the study of the phenomenon, I am willing to comply. If only to keep some semblance of peace and make the topic more productive.

I'm not so sure I am, if I'm following your point, here. As I say, I believe this act would add to the (mostly negative) power various terms and phrases seem to possess. Or, more accurately, the power that we humans give them. I prefer to think that through a real, honest discussion of these words, with warts and all, we might move towards eliminating the negative power associated with them.

Originally posted by riley
Will the one I just replied to do?

Sure will. I was hoping you would prove your paranoia with such an example.

Care to prove we are all caucasion?

Care to prove I said you are all Caucasian?

And here you have concluded that all whites here think all blacks fit into to the ghetto stereotype.

No, but YOU have just proved that you have a problem reading my posts. ALL whites here DON'T use this phrase. And, I said ghetto culture or SOMETHING.

Hope a link will surfice:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I remember a time when posters weren't preoccupied with what race they were talking to.. then one day long time respectable ATS members suddenly morphed into evil rednecks, nazis and clan members.

It's very stange that it happened overnight..

Nah. What's strange is that it happened when black members started talking about race issues quite vocally.

BH and OMS, I agree totally..

My "suggestion" was simply an attempt to formulate a solution to some of the frustration building again for whatever reason.

I mean, isn't some discussion better than none?

Semper

I just want people to notice one thing: these aspects about "victim culture" are not
"race related". They just seem to explain how such a word has been popularly ingrained into national culture and given legitimacy by those who practice white privilege.

As far as I'm concerned, I still feel that victim culture is a term that denigrates the experiences and sources of non-white people. And I have found that some whites are very good at creating phrases that seem to do the trick in terms of practicing "linguistic gymnastics".

Especially in Bonilla's report on "color-blind" theory on this accord, he especially outlines the aspect that people from the dominant culture create these vacous phrases as a way to distance themselves from actualities which occur in society. He even goes further to note that such phrases are usually spoken in "coded" ways so that it seems benign, but really reflect the true racial animus of the situation. What is especially important is that phrases like "victim culture" is part of that terminology of saccharine-like words that still communicate that only "white people can determine what they will be affected by" and the "feelings of people of color are something that they don't care about because it doesn't subscribe to their life experience".

It's the same with phraseology such as "People have to work on their own merits".

This phrase is especially vacous because it ignores the fact that there are still institutions in society in which "merits" were the least way in which people elevated themselves racially. And merits alone does not wipe way institutional racism, nor does it give anyone non-white with respect because of their hard work.

Even poor white people judge a non-white person who has worked hard and "earned merits" as being inferior. It doesn't stop.

So these phrases are used as a way to "ignore" disparities in society and continue to further the blanket of silence that white folks like to retreat to when the fire is getting too hot for the kitchen. And like individuality, it is so deeply ingrained that even white people don't realize that they are doing this. In fact, they are socially geared to fight against it.


[edit on 6-4-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
"Victim Culture" is a political statement of the right (especially white males) who do not want to honor cultural diversity.

This is a great example of why this and other phrases are so loaded and cause people to get so emotional. What it means to Ceci is something totally different than what it means to me. For us to really understand what each other is meaning, we need to read. But I can't make anyone read what I say, so where does that leave us?

And I'm certainly not a right-wing white male!

Especially in Bonilla's report on "color-blind" theory on this accord, he especially outlines the aspect that people from the dominant culture create these vacous phrases as a way to distance themselves from actualities which occur in society. He even goes further to note that such phrases are usually spoken in "coded" ways so that it seems benign, but really reflect the true racial animus of the situation. What is especially important is that phrases like "victim culture" is part of that terminology of saccharine-like words that still communicate that only "white people can determine what they will be affected by" and the "feelings of people of color are something that they don't care about because it doesn't subscribe to their life experience".

Yet is this not also indicative and true of BOTH racial groups? How is this any different then the expressions of "Uncle Tom" and "Oreo" and "Dominant Culture".

The one sentence...

"What is especially important is that phrases like "victim culture" is part of that terminology of saccharine-like words that still communicate that only "white people can determine what they will be affected by" and the "feelings of people of color are something that they don't care about because it doesn't subscribe to their life experience"

Is specifically disingenuous as it can and does relate directly to both sides of the issue. To accept this as factual, one must accept that blacks NEVER speak in ways relative to only blacks. To accept that only whites are suspect in this manner. Again, we have a blanket statement that can not possibly be true or relevant as it completely divides one race into an absolute.

I do not see how it is possible to assign any one aspect of behavior to any one race. Yet that is what is apparent here in this analogy. Any actions taken by the white race can be directly related in sociological methodology to similar actioins taken by the black race; and vice-versa.

Semper

Originally posted by ceci2006
Even poor white people judge a non-white person who has worked hard and "earned merits" as being inferior. It doesn't stop.

Even poor white people get unfairly judged as being racists by you.
It certainly doesn't stop.

..and I said thinly veiled anti-white threads.

Originally posted by ceci2006
I just want people to notice one thing: these aspects about "victim culture" are not "race related".

Then where do you and truthseeka get the idea that this phrase is aimed at black people... ?

I was trying to show that it isn't necessarily race related. Here is an article that explores the victim mindset as regards race.

I'm not a Victim. I'm a Man

I'm tired of your willingness to accept my failures without encouraging me to get back up. I'm tired of your willingness to accept the demasculization of the black male. I'm tired of your willingness to accept less than what I'm capable of. In short, I'm tired of what is currently recognized as African-American leadership.

I've come to the harsh realization that black people have been pimped. Just like a woman of ill-repute, black people been exploited in every way imaginable, yet our leaders still expect us to keep coming back for more of the same treatment. Even worse, blacks who do become part of the free market and start to enjoy the priviledges of being an American are either ridiculed or ignored by their leaders.

This poses quite a delimma. Civil rights leaders have limited black society to two choices: Either adopt the victim mentality, wait for the handouts and be praised -- or accept responsibilities like a man and risk being labeled an "Uncle Tom."

Here's another one

The perpetuation of the victim mentality... does nothing to further long-term the black cause in this country. Quite the opposite, in fact-- like affirmative action, it perpetuates the stereotype that blacks can't make it on their own, but rather need to tilt the playing field and get help from "big brother", in this case in the form of the legal system in order to get anywhere in our society. These absurd lawsuits only polarize things more and anger whites who might otherwise be sympathetic to the real issues affecting the black community-- lack of education, crime, single parent families, horrible neighborhoods,etc.

These are from my thread, but there are many other (non-race-related) examples there. I really wish you guys would read it. It's only 3 pages... I've read many, many more pages of your threads... Could this be a little more give-and-take?

Every time someone says the words "Victim Culture", it doesn't mean it's about race, and when it IS about race, it certainly doesn't mean that black people are stuck in the victim mindset. It's not a racial slur. It's not even an insult (unless it's intended to be, and I acknowledge that many times it has been intended as an insult.) It's a sociological term. Let's get it out there and study it.

Let's demystify it! Let's take some of the power it carries away!

Let's be clear.

I'm not saying that victim culture is completely made up now, based on some of the info provided. What I AM saying is that there was NO valid reason for its use in the race related threads here save for making fun of black posters. Neither Ceci nor myself were "embracing the victim culture." We were offering intelligent, well-sourced discourse on race related subjects. Nevertheless, we were called subscribers to the victim culture.

Thus, I'm still waiting for the explanation, from someone other than nextguy. Without holding my breath, of course.

We are trying to demystifying it. . And yes, when "victim culture" is being used white people do it in such a way to dismiss the experiences and sources of non-white people.

No matter how much people of the dominant culture try to explain it away, it is still a fact of life. I'm sorry this cannot be "seen".

Can people understand why non-white people might view such terms as "victim culture" as an attack on their experiences?



[edit on 6-4-2007 by ceci2006]

Can people understand why non-white people might view such terms as "victim culture" as an attack on their experiences?

Yes I do...

And that was what I was searching for. It has now in my mind, been officially demystified.. Thank you ceci.. I will refrain from it's use and move on to other phrases...

Semper

Originally posted by truthseeka
Nevertheless, we were called subscribers to the victim culture.

Thus, I'm still waiting for the explanation, from someone other than nextguy.

Maybe you should directly ask the people that said that. We don't speak for each other.

Originally posted by truthseeka

Originally posted by spacedoubt
Deny ignorance.
Thats why.
You tell people how wrong they are, but make no attempt to right this wrong.
We are here to teach each other. We can all learn from each other.
So, just once more.
How about a better phrase, to replace "victim culture". I won't hound you anymore about it. Just this last opportunity to deny ignorance on this.

Nope. Deny your own ignorance.

I've already learned from trying to explain that anti-Semite is a Zionist catch phrase used to get people critical of Israel/Zionism to shut up. I've already learned from trying to explain that Arabs are the most numerous group of Semites in the world, and that there are technically more anti-Arab Semites than anti-Jewish Semites. But, the anti-Arab Semites are NOT called anti-Semites. And you know what I was called when I did this?

ANTI-SEMITE!

:shk:

So NO, I won't deny your ignorance for you.

Fair enough.
You DO know the title of this thread.
Demysifying the Phrases in race related talk.
I'm still mystified..But I'll move on to someone who might be interested in Denying my ignorance. Thanks anyway!

Originally posted by ceci2006
And yes, when "victim culture" is being used white people do it in such a way to dismiss the experiences and sources of non-white people.

This is a blanket statement of opinion about the minds and motivations of white people. I don't accept it as "fact". I'm sorry. I'm sure some white people have used it toward black people in that way, but I have never used the term victim culture to a black person as a way of trying to dismiss their experiences.

Can people understand why non-white people might view such terms as "victim culture" as an attack on their experiences?

Yes. I think just about anyone who is told they're stuck in a victim culture thinks it's an insult and an attack on them. It's not something people are usually happy to hear.

[edit on 6-4-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

I Believe It Is Possible...

...to discuss this topic without pointing fingers at each other.

I know it's not easy, especially when fingers are pointing your way.

But it is possible.

There has been an awful lot of drama surrounding racism discussions, and many regrettable turns of events.

But I believe it is possible for every member to speak candidly about racism in our forums without fear of abuse or reprisal for doing so.

How It Starts

It starts with respect.

Respect for each other and respect for the rules we've all agreed to follow.

Discussing racism isn't about pointing fingers at other people because of their race.

That is racism.

Rather, it's about sharing our honest opinions about racism, and respecting the rights of others to do the same.

Simple in theory, much harder in practice.

What It Takes

In our forums, members are free to hold whatever opinions they want, including racist opinions.

Provided these opinions are expressed in a manner consistent with the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use, they are welcome here.

That does not mean hateful, abusive tirades and personal attacks are welcome, however. They are not.

Understanding the difference is essential to being able to discuss racism, as is an atmosphere of mutual respect and understanding.

And with enough mutual respect and understanding, it is possible to discuss racism honestly and Deny Apathy.

I believe it is possible.






[edit on 4/6/2007 by Majic]

I'm with you Majic...

I believe all of that as well.

I also have faith in ATSer's and their ability to overcome and persevere through a rough time..

How about it guys????

How about a real, honest to goodness, intelligent discussion???

Who is with me???

Semper

I'm with you, Semper.

I have to go to bed right now, but I'll be stopping in over the weekend. I think we were doing really well. Good job everyone.

Thanks Majic.

I'm in... I've got to get Basil in the ground today and a few other out-side kind of things, so there may be a delay... but I'm definitely in.

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
I've got to get Basil in the ground today

With a hard freeze warning for a good share of the country .... good luck! We are waiting on snow here. They promised 2 inches last night. So far .. nothing.

Semper .. I'm a bit busy right now - Easter holiday and all - but I'll be in and out.