Spiegel International - "Evil Americans, Poor Mullahs"

Germany has its own secret services, paid for by unsuspecting taxpayers, like in any other Western country, these organisations clandestinely cooperate with wildly varying fractions of other services and terrorist groups, depending on political fashion. none of the western countries should blame anyone but themselves, they are all deeply into the surveillance schemes resurrected in 2001, taken out of dusty folders from the cold war.

Divisiveness is a hallmark of PR work, because the people of countries suffering from the same power structure must not ever realize that they could use some mutual support, which would enable them to see the greater picture.

on forums like these, people don't need to give away their location or nationality, therefore political hick-hack is essentially limited to those who wish to participate in it, there are no borders as long as your Engrish doesn't give you away.. so, PR like this article is not designed for regular web users, so the issue at hand is of 'internal' nature: how to get people off childish, remote-controlled media?

Originally posted by InSpiteOf

The US did a great job fighting the war, without them, IMO the allieds would have had one hell of a fight, but big US business has been entrenched in political manipulation of a LONG time.

The allieds wouldn't have won at all if it hadn't been for America. France was destroyed,England was in shambles. Their only other hope might have been Russia but it should be remembered that Russia and Germany had a treaty for while. The only reason it didn't stand is because Germany decided to invade Russia in the middle of winter, which wasn't a smart decision at all.

[edit on 30-3-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
The allieds wouldn't have won at all if it hadn't been for America. France was destroyed,England was in shambles. Their only other hope might have been Russia but it should be remembered that Russia and Germany had a treaty for while. The only reason it didn't stand is because Germany decided to invade Russia in the middle of winter, which wasn't a smart decision at all.

[edit on 30-3-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

very true, but as i said, US business made fighting the Nazi's even harder.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf

very true, but as i said, US business made fighting the Nazi's even harder.

True. One of the ironic things about Hitler is that he spoke out against many of the people who were financing his movement. It is quite ironic really.

Many US business leaders (ford(or maybe it was GM) and ITT come to mind) did business with the nazi's (building parts of tanks and such) and instead of these companies being prosecuted for treason, many of them collected money from the US government for damages and lost equipment.

Good point. I guess by 1942 the Corporate Machine had oiled it's gears from the rust of the 1920's depression (remember the Federal Income Tax and Federal Reserve were started in 1913 ... depression? huh, wonder what happened) and realized that there could be some big money to be made if the Nazi's managed to conquer Europe and Africa. But thankfully Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and we dove head over heels into the War on the opposing side.

Spiegel is famous for its over-the-top anti-Americanism.

This blog keeps a close eye on it and other German media:

David's Medienkritik

Time for people to create their own independent Newspapers.

That's all which comes to my mind upon the overwhelming amount of propaganda and censorship.

that poll only show's how " IN " it is to hate the great united states of
america . im proud of my country and could care less how in it is . hate us , we don't care . just understand , it's not the people , it's the government . and who likes their government .

Originally posted by osram
Time for people to create their own independent Newspapers.

That's all which comes to my mind upon the overwhelming amount of propaganda and censorship.

oh well, once you are in the realm of business, you will surely be forced out of it or simply assimilated. how many print media still own industrial printing capacity? without it, you are doomed to be muzzled by 'technical difficulties' contract or not, i'd wager these people will gladly pay quite a lot in damages as long as they can keep the dissenters out. money alone cannot compensate for lost reach, can it?

provided you got that far, you'd face a consumer base of people who are used to the media's ugly, agressive and meaningless offerings, leaving any alternative news a niche market, at best. no, alternative news need to seek alternative ways. IF 'WEB 2.0' can be exposed for what it is (and toppled) that should be relatively easy, all that's left is widespreqad acceptance. as long as the majority likes to read the celebrity&rumors section, there's little hope if any, regardless of their preferred medium.

Originally posted by Long Lance

Originally posted by osram
Time for people to create their own independent Newspapers.

That's all which comes to my mind upon the overwhelming amount of propaganda and censorship.

oh well, once you are in the realm of business, you will surely be forced out of it or simply assimilated. how many print media still own industrial printing capacity? without it, you are doomed to be muzzled by 'technical difficulties' contract or not, i'd wager these people will gladly pay quite a lot in damages as long as they can keep the dissenters out. money alone cannot compensate for lost reach, can it?

provided you got that far, you'd face a consumer base of people who are used to the media's ugly, agressive and meaningless offerings, leaving any alternative news a niche market, at best. no, alternative news need to seek alternative ways. IF 'WEB 2.0' can be exposed for what it is (and toppled) that should be relatively easy, all that's left is widespreqad acceptance. as long as the majority likes to read the celebrity&rumors section, there's little hope if any, regardless of their preferred medium.

Oh boy i really dislike it when all those negative thinking people who believe they know everything on how to create a succesful "business" or "sub-culture" are telling the same old story over and over again:

It is IMPOSSIBLE TO CHANGE THE WORLD! (Sarcasm)

Have you ever tried to change your society, or create something new? Long Lance? Have you ever gathered experience in leading a succesfully autonomous and effective "project"?

I have. And I'm not living in a "Dream-World" either. And after all, Ideas aka Dreams are always the first step to the creation of something new. You only need to be convinced that with enough experience and effort, every idea can manifest itself in reality.

When people have an idea be it in arts or whatever, they always have to ignore the masses who keep telling them: "No. This Idea won't work. I've got no clue about this topic but I'm telling you this won't work. Don't take the risk blablablabla." If creative people would care what all those deniers believe to know and tell them, their ideas would never become real. In general there would be no creativity at all.

I guess part of this behavior is sometimes jealousy, or maybe it's simply the fact that everyone is stuck into those "economical" thinking patterns. In economic language you would probably call it "risk management".

People have to get off of those "business" ideologies. After all economy is in itself a totally abused system. So what is so difficult turning against it? It doesn't mean that your idea doesn't need any money or budget-management. It simply means that money-making is not the main goal, but the idea of a project, will be.

And I know what I'm talking about; If you create a good, transparent project plan, with statutes, and the general orientation. You can then free yourself from taxes if the project plan is good and transparent enough. Potential funders can be convinced, who will support the idea with only one condition:

The project must be executed corresponding to it's non-profit idea.

Also potential donators can then write off the amounts of money they donate, from taxes.

The most important thing is though: The project's ideology and project plan must clearly correspond with the group's idea and eliminate all weak points of abuse or outer influence. It must be autonomous, and at some point if possible even independent.
There is need for a good leader, who might not know much about marketing, or writing.. etc. but who has alot of energy and always looks that the project keeps true to "his/your idea".
There is need for a couple of interested and experienced people.
Good writers, designers, marketing people, printers, etc.

Leave it or take it. It is possible to change the world.
We have done it, in a minimal but effective "spot".
And that's where everything starts.. a fertile sub-culture is born!

Deny ignorance: Deny impossibilities.

desperation has many faces, impatience and radicalism of course being prime exaples.... like assuming in traditinal black&white logic, that i'd consider any effort futiile. it seems to me you just did not like what you read, it seems you think you could save the world which is a delusion, you can surely save your world, however, even if your primary intention is obviously something different. (otherwise you would not bother to reply to an alledged pessimist like me)



your sub culture might even flourish, i'm certain it could grow and become a leading paradigm at some point, probably the fulfillment of your dreams... right? taking a glance at hostory suggests that efforts like these have a tendency to simply fail or become what they were designed to escape from - i'll leave it to you why that is. in any case, it's unlikely that everyone up until you were just too dumb or too full of themselves to get things done, so i'd be surprised if frontal assault ie. competing in the media business hadn't been tried several times already, so i can't really conceive a reason why one would seriously state something like this.

i wish you (and everyone else for that matter) luck, looks like you could use it in spades. i'm not trying to talk anyone out of his/her ideas and activities, certainly not, after all, perhaps it'll have a ripple effect of some kind.

PS:

...
When people have an idea be it in arts or whatever, they always have to ignore the masses who keep telling them: "No. This Idea won't work. I've got no clue about this topic but I'm telling you this won't work. Don't take the risk blablablabla." If creative people would care what all those deniers believe to know and tell them, their ideas would never become real. In general there would be no creativity at all.

I guess part of this behavior is sometimes jealousy, or maybe it's simply the fact that everyone is stuck into those "economical" thinking patterns. In economic language you would probably call it "risk management".
...

do not accuse me or anyone else of 'thinking patterns' it's psychological idiocy designed by - guess whom - eltitists. at the same time, don't let your bubbling creativity let slip the concept of 'masses' into your enlightened mind, it might cause incalculable damage to you and your surroundings. i don't know if you're just using the word out of habit, though.

It's all find and well to talk about the creation of indy papers, but I'm not seeing much here about the easier stuff. You're all talking about the battle of ideas. Every idea started with one person, using one voice to communicate his/her thoughts.

Once upon a time, an immigrant to the American colonies named Thomas Payne wrote a small essay, which he published with his own money. That small effort was so pursuasive that it had a major effect. British army officers of the period discounted Payne's effort because he was just one man.

If these truly are the times that try men's souls, we should remember such exmples and make the most of them. for those of you who need a little dark motivation, consider this. You really can fight a conspiracy with one of your own. Look around. It's not an accident that you can't find anyone who thinks like you do. You can't find 'em because they are few and far between.

Hold on. Before you reach for that keyboard, consider one more thing. How many minds have you changed by saying what you think and why? The truth is that you would win more people over to your point of view...if...you could reach more people. It can be thankless work, but it can be done.

This whole thread is mucho caca de toro. No Euro has a leg to stand on criticizing the US about imperialism. The US has never had an Emperor, King or Queen unless you count Elvis or Micheal Jackson!

Many of the huge multinational corporations for which the US military has been deployed to protect their assets since 1990(perhaps longer) are based in Europe. Europe's economy is far more dependent on Middle Eastern oil supplies than the US's.

The Euros talk big smack about human rights and dignity but they have the most restrictive trade, labor and immigration policies of any part of the developed world.

When the Great American Military Global Pullback comes(I believe it will come sooner rather than later), Europe will face another Islamic invasion like they did in the 6th century and right now most Americans wouldn't lift a finger to stop it.

No Kings or Emperors?

Maybe you forgot about the Queen of England.
And i think talking in present form rather past is preciser in this case.

You are exactly one of those people who generalize "Euros", "Americans".
Congratulations for having fallen to recent Mass-Media intentions.

Fact is, that the american Elite is more dangerous than Iran. They have hundreds of A-Bombs, if not thousands. They are some of the few countries who are constantly invading other countries, be it the official wars like Irak, or False Flag Operations in the last 50 years.

Recent history and the American Warpower suggests that it is absolutely natural for people to see a bigger threat in the american Elite, than any other country.

If you let yourself divide, and generalize people, religions or nations you have apparently not understood the reason why I posted this thread.

Originally posted by crgintx
This whole thread is mucho caca de toro. No Euro has a leg to stand on criticizing the US about imperialism.

Why not? since when are there stipulations to poltical critiques? Id say we need more people to critique US intervention and US imperialism in this world, the more there are, the more the message will get herd.

The US has never had an Emperor, King or Queen unless you count Elvis or Micheal Jackson!

so what?

Many of the huge multinational corporations for which the US military has been deployed to protect their assets since 1990(perhaps longer) are based in Europe. Europe's economy is far more dependent on Middle Eastern oil supplies than the US's.

The world economy is dependant on Middle eastern oil, i think would be a more accurate observation.

The Euros talk big smack about human rights and dignity but they have the most restrictive trade, labor and immigration policies of any part of the developed world.

Maybe so, but Europe doesnt have over 300 major military bases in the world. Its warships dont sail every sea, and its planes dont fly in every skyline. Eurpoe isnt involved in counterinsurgencies and counterrevolutionary actions in South American, to the extent the US is.

When the Great American Military Global Pullback comes(I believe it will come sooner rather than later), Europe will face another Islamic invasion like they did in the 6th century and right now most Americans wouldn't lift a finger to stop it.

Why would an imperial power remove its base of power from the world? Why would the US pull back its military and risk rebellion?

I deplore the actions of the gov't of the US. It doesn't reflect the hearts and minds of most Americans. I lived in Europe for 2 years and can tell you that most Europeans are as ignorant to the reality of American life as Americans are of European life.

Americans don't rule the world. They've closed far more military bases both overseas and stateside then they've opened up. During the '90's, the US reduced the size of its military forces by over 25%. The plans are in the works to further reduce it even further. There's a growing anti-interventionist movement in the US. Many Americans are tired of our military being used a police force for multinational corporations who are raping the American taxpayer blind to protect multinational corporate foreign assets.

Why are there no European forces deplored overseas? The European nations colonized and exploited the rest of the world for about 400 years . Americans were gullible enough to let them drag us into 2 world wars and Vietnam. After WW2, the Europeans were flat broke and scared silly of becoming Soviet satellites. Every major European nation still had colonies overseas in 1945. What colonies did/does the US have? With the exception of Iraq and Afghanistan, the US military is in foreign countries with permission or by request of every foreign country's govt. that its military is deployed. In fact,several foreign gov't's expect economic compensation from the US if it decides to close its military bases within their borders! The US will close its bases for the simplest of reasons: it can no longer afford them. In the next major global conflict, the US may just sit it out. Best guess it'll be a war between India and Pakistan or possibly China. It's been a while since they went at it.

The United States of America won its independence from the UK in 1783. Since then, the US has been a Republic. There are no royals in the US except those who emigrated from another country and their titles of nobility are meaningless here.

American elites as you name them are inseperable from European and Asian elites. Corporations don't recognize borders. Fascism is a European creation .

You have voted crgintx for the Way Above Top Secret award

Great post! I totally agree. America has done it's bit. Let some other countries take the heat for a while. They'll no doubt be begging for U.S intervention.

Originally posted by crgintx
I deplore the actions of the gov't of the US. It doesn't reflect the hearts and minds of most Americans. I lived in Europe for 2 years and can tell you that most Europeans are as ignorant to the reality of American life as Americans are of European life.

Americans don't rule the world. They've closed far more military bases both overseas and stateside then they've opened up. During the '90's, the US reduced the size of its military forces by over 25%. The plans are in the works to further reduce it even further. There's a growing anti-interventionist movement in the US. Many Americans are tired of our military being used a police force for multinational corporations who are raping the American taxpayer blind to protect multinational corporate foreign assets.

Why are there no European forces deplored overseas? The European nations colonized and exploited the rest of the world for about 400 years . Americans were gullible enough to let them drag us into 2 world wars and Vietnam. After WW2, the Europeans were flat broke and scared silly of becoming Soviet satellites. Every major European nation still had colonies overseas in 1945. What colonies did/does the US have? With the exception of Iraq and Afghanistan, the US military is in foreign countries with permission or by request of every foreign country's govt. that its military is deployed. In fact,several foreign gov't's expect economic compensation from the US if it decides to close its military bases within their borders! The US will close its bases for the simplest of reasons: it can no longer afford them. In the next major global conflict, the US may just sit it out. Best guess it'll be a war between India and Pakistan or possibly China. It's been a while since they went at it.

The United States of America won its independence from the UK in 1783. Since then, the US has been a Republic. There are no royals in the US except those who emigrated from another country and their titles of nobility are meaningless here.

American elites as you name them are inseperable from European and Asian elites. Corporations don't recognize borders. Fascism is a European creation .

Who needs overseas military bases if there are CIA-Prisons everywhere? I mean no wonder they are closing down some of them, if what you say is true.. after all they can come and get you anywhere and secretly bring you to USS XYZ, torture you for 5 years etc. etc.

I doubt that it is of any importance if some americans are "tired" of the military actions of US Origin. Unless they do something about it.

If you read through this thread properly you would have stumbled upon some important information in regards of the US and it's role in WW2.
If Bush Junior's Grandgrandfather had not made big business with the second World War, and if they hadn't actively supported Hitler, the Nazi-Regime would not have become such a problem in first place.

And your distorted, ignoring way of depicting history is quite funny. So you guys were forced to take part in the Vietnam or World War 2?
What a nice way to play the poor "victim's" role.. the eternal benevolent country, whom every single European should be thankful for ever.

No matter how bad the Elite's Agenda is.

Maybe the US don't have "official" colonies, but they are just much more hideous, nowadays. It's called enforcing political interests by Covert Ops and False Flag operations all over the world. I mean who needs to colonize a country if they are completely dependent and infiltrated?

In the same way I also doubt that the the US is really independent from the UK. They simply stopped trying to conquer by military force, and infiltrated the nation as they always do. Many europeans went to fight on the american side, because they loved the freedom-philosophy. And the rebellion against the Imperial UK. But then the UK brought Business, Lawyers, Courts etc.
and got back into control without military action. Coward's Style.

What you fail to realize is that the US isn't what it once was.. since a long time. You can't call that an UK-Independent Republic anymore.

"American elites as you name them are inseperable from European and Asian elites. Corporations don't recognize borders. Fascism is a European creation."

ORLY? Guess what, we are specifically talking about "Elite's" for not being misunderstood as referring to the common population aka citizens.

You say that the corporations and elites do not recognize borders for their cause. You are so right.

But in the last sentence you accuse "Europe" of creating fascism?

Quite a contradiction, don't you think so?

I say you might read yourself into a clearer and more coherent understanding of history.

And thanks for your help, "Flights". Maybe the US should care about their own business, for a change. And i do mean their OWN Business. I'm not talking about foreign interventions.

After all some people around the world, although you might want them to be, are not blindly grateful for the exceeding benevolent deeds of the American Super-Fascist-Power.

And for your information:

This thread is about quite some different topic than your astonishing historical knowledge. So, stick to it.

It's about disinfo and obvious media examples of dividing the people.

[edit on 3-4-2007 by osram]

Osram, I assume you are Swiss or at least of some European descent.

Osram, your criticism falls on my deaf ears especially considering Switzerland's roll in funding the Nazi Germany's military build-up prior to WW 2 and hiding billions of looted money and treasure taken from the victims of Nazi Death Camps after the war.

Swiss banks, therefore Swiss bankers hide and transfer billions of whatever currency you care to name for tax cheats, arms dealers and guess who? those same US intelligence services whose actions upset you so much to fund their overseas operations.

The Swiss banking industry are as guilty of war and terror profiteering as any despotic gov't official you care to name. Just because you don't pull the triggers, doesn't mean you aren't guilty of aiding and abetting tyranny.

As I stated in an earlier post, many European nationals are quick to forget their 300-400 years of war,conquest and tyranny they spread on every continent except Antartica. In 1945, the US was left holding the bag to clean up the mess created by many of the European nations through out the world.

Everything that the US has done in the past 100 years pales in comparison to what the Europeans did to peoples of Africa,Asia, Australia and the Americas in the previous 400 years!

Originally posted by crgintx
In 1945, the US was left holding the bag to clean up the mess created by many of the European nations through out the world.

Everything that the US has done in the past 100 years pales in comparison to what the Europeans did to peoples of Africa,Asia, Australia and the Americas in the previous 400 years!

I think your last statement is pretty bold there. Firstly, the US hasnt been an imperial power for just 100 years. Secondly, I dont really understand how you can say one set of atrocities was far worse than another. Both country and continent butchered millions in the name of profit and continue to do so. After all the US is built on bloodied land

The US may not have colonies (as in foreign land with their flag on it under their direct control) but it has economic and ideological monopolies on a VAST part of the world. The US realized early in the game that its too expensive to uphold colonies, so they granted their colonies "independance" with the intention of keeping those colonies under economic slavery (IE capitalist control.)

I respect your opinions, you seem well read in both history and foriegn policy, but i tihnk if we're going to continue this style of talk we should keep insults (on any side) down to a minimum.