Overwhelming Evidence of Transatlantic Voyages in Ancient Times

Read the whole thing

www.kult-ur-institut.de...

Would love to, however, when I clicked on the link it set off my warnings. Since I am unfamiliar with the source I'm a little reluctant. The topic, however, is interesting.

It's a PDF, I don't think it would cause a problem, but if you're still cautious you can view it in cache at google.

so what are you claiming here ?
that sailors transported bottle gourds from Africa to the new world
you dont see the obvious flaw in your argument again do you
try to look at the evidence without colouring it with your personal belief
that way you wouldn't make so many errors

If there's a problem, how 'bout you show it to me?

ok well firstly it has long been accepted dogma that the gourds made it there by crossing the Atlantic
except apparently they did that on their own

"For 150 years, the dominant theory has been that bottle gourds, which are quite buoyant and have no known wild progenitors in the Americas, floated across the Atlantic Ocean from Africa and were picked up and used as containers by people here," says Noreen Tuross, the Landon T. Clay Professor of Scientific Archaeology in Harvard's Faculty of Arts and Sciences. "Much to our surprise, we found that in every case the gourds found in the Americas were a genetic match with modern gourds found in Asia, not Africa. This suggests quite strongly that the gourds that were used as containers in the Americas for thousands of years before the advent of pottery were brought over from Asia."

now radiocarbon results have proved that the gourds were present for a significant time longer that was previously known
putting the claim of your paper namely that they arrived by boat with travellers from Africa right off the map

Radiocarbon dating indicates that bottle gourds were present in the Americas by 10,000 years ago and widespread by 8,000 years ago. Some of the specimens studied by the team were not only the oldest bottle gourds ever found but also quite possibly the oldest plant DNA ever analyzed

www.eurekalert.org...

and as for the cotton
well the oldest dates for domesticated cotton are in fact from South america and not africa
so if anything they originated there and were then bought the other way
nobody except pseudohistorians are claiming this of course because the dna doesnt match it that way
you want a scholarly reference that contains this information
here it is
www.hallofmaat.com...
but its quite long
and the information is dispersed throughout
if you are genuinly interested in this kind of subject then it would pay you to read it and understand it
that way in future you wouldn't have to make sensational claims without accurate evidence

and really you should think about this
what you are claiming not being true is like slapping the mesoamerican cultures in the face and saying "hey you couldn't have done anything without the africans"
as such your ideas are actually afrocentric

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Read the whole thing

www.kult-ur-institut.de...

Oohhhhboy. That paper's a real mess.

From the top: it's not done by anyone who spent years researching this topic in depth. Misspellings are rife and it's clear that these researchers haven't read anything other than the papers cited in the work. The format of the paper indicates that none of the participants has written a scientific paper before (and therefore hasn't actually ever done any original research.)

Could someone come up with good information in spite of these flaws? Yes.

Did they come up with good conclusions in spite of their flaws? No.

Why not?

They only reviewed information that supported their thesis. They didn't actually address and read other things that were contrary to their findings.

That's not science. That's opinion.

Marduk has pointed out some of the obvious shortcomings of their research, so I won't go into all those links. The material on cotton shows how careless they are in their research. Other papers on that same topic show that the split (when the plants came to America) was well over 10 million years ago:
article.pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca...

Now... in doing this kind of meta-analysis (that's what it's called), you would have read that paper because it's easy to find. And you'd have checked out what papers linked to this and what discussions existed on this.

They didn't bother to do this. They're writing opinion, and not well researched opinion.

They make some HUGE cultural mistakes that no scientist with peer reviews would make:
* they assume an interpretation of a piece of rock art (ocean chart) and don't bother to confirm it with other similar pieces of rock art in the area (that's because the other rock art of the area destroys the notion that what's being presented are ocean current charts.)

Several cited references that seemed culturally "wrong" (the bits about the constellations, for instance) turned out to be articles in the journal, "Migration & Diffusion."

I looked up the journal.
migration.steinwender.co.uk...

Gee. There's a few things the writers of the paper aren't telling us... like... this is a journal that "if you send it in and they like it, they will print it." Oh...and there's a disclaimer that the author is responsible for the science -- they do no peer reviews or checking. And FINALLY (and not entirely to my surprise) the journal links to the ABORA II site. A further investigation of the links shows that the books they cite happen to be published by the group.

In scientific circles, this is "conflict of interest."

So, they're using material they publish (and hype), there's no peer review, and they don't bother to look at material other than that directly linked to the books they publish.

This isn't a startling new theory backed up by science. It's a pack of whatever they want to tell you, designed to sell their books.

That's not science -- it's marketing. It has about as much truth in it as your average cigarette ad.


[edit on 27-3-2007 by Byrd]

My Opinion

Although I think it could be possible that people sailed to North America before the vikings, columbus etc, I dont think anybody actually did.

Here's some psuedoscience for you that I just made up on the spot, Native Americans had a great civilization and sailed all over before realizing what they were doing to the environtment and went back to being in tune with nature LOL.


Theres alot of things that happened a long time ago and unless somebody invents a time machine I think only speculation will ever come of this topic.

But it's fun to discuss eh!

Although I think it could be possible that people sailed to North America before the vikings, columbus etc, I dont think anybody actually did.

aha
if you'd read the links off this thread you'd have realised that we're not actually discussing North america and the peaceful ways of the NA
we're actually discussing meso and south america
those are the chaps who were in the habit of cutting the hearts out of their prisoners and rolling them down the temple steps to appease their Gods
so you'd have to adapt your theory to

"meso americans had a great civilization and sailed all over before realizing what they were doing to the environtment by not rolling corpses with their hearts cut out down the temple steps to appease their gods and went back to being in tune with nature LOL. "

oh and its not pseudoscience as you've offered no scientific evidence twisted to fit your imagination like the O.P
technically what you are offering is pseudohistory

Somewhere somehow the ancient pleadians from zorga prime were responsible for bringing people from the old world to the new world. THeir space ship came and picked them up from lake victoria and deposited them at lake titicaca. The rest is history. And thats the truth.

Originally posted by Marduk

Although I think it could be possible that people sailed to North America before the vikings, columbus etc, I dont think anybody actually did.

aha
if you'd read the links off this thread you'd have realised that we're not actually discussing North america and the peaceful ways of the NA
we're actually discussing meso and south america
those are the chaps who were in the habit of cutting the hearts out of their prisoners and rolling them down the temple steps to appease their Gods
so you'd have to adapt your theory to

"meso americans had a great civilization and sailed all over before realizing what they were doing to the environtment by not rolling corpses with their hearts cut out down the temple steps to appease their gods and went back to being in tune with nature LOL. "

oh and its not pseudoscience as you've offered no scientific evidence twisted to fit your imagination like the O.P
technically what you are offering is pseudohistory

LOL whatever you say.

Thank you for correcting my mistake