The Legacy of Jesus Christ

Of course everyone bases their characters on Jesus. Jesus is the man!

[edit on 1-7-2007 by thehumbleone]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
TheB1ueSoldier, jesus does follow A hero cycle, just not the campbellian cycle (the EPIC hero cycle). and most epic heroes do die, there are 3 possibilities:
1: hero succeeds and lives, happy ending
2: hero succeeds and dies, happy memories from his comrades
3: hero fails and dies, new hero has to rise up or story ends

there is no hero surviving a failure. it just never comes up, or the hero later succeeds after a first failing (such as luke skywalker's encounter with vader on cloud city)

So which number does Jesus fit into?

for #1- Jesus succeeds, but does not live, so he does not fit that one.

for #2- Jesus succeeds and dies, that is true. But his comrades certainly don't have happy memories. They're too busy being fed to lions and skinned alive by Romans.

for #3- Jesus succeeds and Christianity flourishes, so his story does not match this one either.

I'll say it again, Jesus does not fit any archetype for a hero.

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
So which number does Jesus fit into?

for #1- Jesus succeeds, but does not live, so he does not fit that one.

obviously

for #2- Jesus succeeds and dies, that is true. But his comrades certainly don't have happy memories. They're too busy being fed to lions and skinned alive by Romans.

but they do have happy memories OF HIM. they even go around talking about him to everyone that will listen... or won't (hence the lions)

for #3- Jesus succeeds and Christianity flourishes, so his story does not match this one either.

i just want to point out that christianity flourishing would have absolutely nothing to do with the success or failure of jesus. the religion is succesful with a fictional character at its center, just like judaism had success with quite a few fictional characters at its core.

I'll say it again, Jesus does not fit any archetype for a hero.

i'll say it again, you're wrong. he clearly fits into the pre-jesus messianic archetype. he may not fit exactly, but then again few heroes do

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
but they do have happy memories OF HIM. they even go around talking about him to everyone that will listen... or won't (hence the lions)

Hmmm... According to you, the disciples and earliest Christians were willing to put their lives on the line for a lie? The disciples were willing to be persecuted and tortured to death for a story that they knew was not true? Perhaps, if the disciples were all together and their group mentality pressured them to keep their lie, but this is not the case. They were all in different cities and countries at the times of their murders, and we have elaborate records of their deaths and the ways they were tortured in, but we do NOT have a single document that says ANY of the disciples denied the story of Jesus, even until death took their lives.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i'll say it again, you're wrong. he clearly fits into the pre-jesus messianic archetype. he may not fit exactly, but then again few heroes do

First you say that Jesus fits the classic archetype of the hero, now you're saying that he fits a supposed pre-jesus messianic archetype. I've never heard of a pre-Jesus messianic archetype, perhaps because there were no messiahs before Jesus arrived on stage. Actually there was one messiah-type character born a decade before Jesus, but he hardly counts as an archetype and none of his traits match Jesus at all. So, I have no idea what pre-Jesus messianic archetype you speak of.

[edit on 7/3/2007 by TheB1ueSoldier]

[edit on 7/3/2007 by TheB1ueSoldier]

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Hmmm... According to you, the disciples and earliest Christians were willing to put their lives on the line for a lie?

you're oversimplifying. they were willing to put their lives on the line for a CONCEPT, an IDEA. if the figure speaks in parables, why can't he be a massive piece of symbolism himself?

The disciples were willing to be persecuted and tortured to death for a story that they knew was not true?

again, oversimplification. they may have known the story was just a story, but they believed the tennents of the religion. just because something is fictional doesn't mean it isn't true.

the boy may never have cried wolf, but the story has its lesson.

Perhaps, if the disciples were all together and their group mentality pressured them to keep their lie, but this is not the case. They were all in different cities and countries at the times of their murders, and we have elaborate records of their deaths and the ways they were tortured in, but we do NOT have a single document that says ANY of the disciples denied the story of Jesus, even until death took their lives.

and we don't have any evidence that jesus was a historical figure. hell, we don't have any evidence showing that the early believers thought he was a historical figure, not even paul speaks of jesus as a physical being on earth.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
First you say that Jesus fits the classic archetype of the hero, now you're saying that he fits a supposed pre-jesus messianic archetype.

exactly. by classical i meant greeco-egyptian, and if i said THE i meant to say A. he fits A classical heroic archetype.

I've never heard of a pre-Jesus messianic archetype, perhaps because there were no messiahs before Jesus arrived on stage.

dionysus, mithra, a certain incarnation of horus, various tribal messianic figures, buddha, and all the other people that claimed to be the jewish messiah before jesus showed up would have to disagree with you on that.

Actually there was one messiah-type character born a decade before Jesus, but he hardly counts as an archetype and none of his traits match Jesus at all.

which one are you talking about?

So, I have no idea what pre-Jesus messianic archetype you speak of.

so there was this guy, circa the early first century BCE, claimed to be the jewish messiah. he said he could heal the sick, transmute matter, raise the dead, and walk through walls. he walked around preaching and had many followers. he was crucified and his followers claimed that he rose from the dead 3 days later in fulfillment of isaiah's prophecy. his name was apolonius (i'm not sure if i am spelling that correctly) and this was all recorded during his lifetime

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
Jesus is godly. You can ask anyone in my church who has received the holy spirit and speaks in tongues.

Which Church and what tongues are spoken?

Hello Blue Solider. I was reading your thread about crime statistics and decided to look through your past threads to read your other works. After seeing this one, it broke my heart. It should be pretty obvious to figure out why.

Not trying to open a can of worms. I just wanted to be honest and express my emotions on this thread. I hope you don't mind.

Edited to add after skimming through the thread a bit more: The pagan copycat hypothesis has been thoroughly debunked. See: HERE, HERE, and HERE for my three favorite online refutations, one authored by myself.

Take care and I'm sorry to bump such an old thread. I was just greatly saddened and couldn't help but say something.

[edit on 7/9/2008 by AshleyD]

another refution is that satan knows Christ and what he will do and mimics it by creating beliefs that are similiar, yet the difference is that those faith didn't spread throughout the world, creat 1,000s of saints who worked miracles and change the enitre world which they would have if they were true.

Christ church spread throuighout the world becaue he is the one. The bottom line is that many saints seen him, many saints worked miracles through him, many eucharistic miracles have taken place that scientists have tested and he will return soon after WW3 when this world almost destroys itself from a nuke holocost.

btw I seen a huge change from madness back then to now, I think he might be alittle more open minded.


pece.