Discussion - Islamic Conservatives

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
Turkey right now has the secular army threatening a coup if the an Islamist president is elected....what happened to democracy?

Democracy would be preserved . The system of governance you put forward is undemocratic.

There will be no discrimination because they will have all the same rights as a Muslim. But the government will be an Islamic government based on the Law of God.

Err the very fact that a Christian couldn't hold office means that they are being discriminated against. If a person is outlawed from running for office because of there religion then a democracy does not exist.

Political parties can form with different focuses and platforms, but overall, the basic tenets will be the same. Islam will be the foundation.

So in effect political parties existed for show purposes only.

What is your definition of moderate? If "moderate" violates the Law of Allah, then those people will be out of luck.

Moderate would be the something along the lines of a government that supports Islamic values but allows Christians to run for office and avoids enforcing Islam via written law. Since men don't have to cover there bodies women are discriminated against by Islam.

We don't have a chance to do it in a nice way because of the corrupt governments supported by the US. I believe when America finally leaves Iraq, Iraq may be a place for it to start. It will begin with violence however since they will be in a state of war.

Huh ? If the people of Iraq wanted your values system they would have voted for it you cant blame the US for people embracing freedom.

This law is not optional, however. If a person who calls themselves a Muslim and simultaneously rejects Shar'iah, then that person is not a sincere Muslim.

In other words you fear people choosing a differnt values system. Even if the law didn't force people to limited there freedoms some people would choose that way of life. People choose to be Christians even thou they don't have to be under the law.

Both the Christian and Islamic belief system relies on the existence of a higher power.

You called the system of governance I put forward "undemocratic." Well, that's fine, because we don't want democracy.

Christians would be represented in the government.

THE UMMAH ASSEMBLY (Majlis ul-Ummah)

Article 101



The members of the Majlis al-Ummah are those people who represent the Muslims in respect of expressing their views to the Khaleefah when consulted. Non-Muslims are allowed to be members of the Majlis al-Ummah so that they can voice their complaints in respect to unjust acts performed by the rulers or the misapplication of the Islamic laws.



Article 102
The members of the Majlis al-Ummah are elected by the people.



Article 103
Every citizen of the State has the right to become a member of the Majlis al-Ummah, provided he or she is both mature and sane. This applies to Muslim and non-Muslim. However, membership to non-Muslims is confined to their voicing of complaints in respect to unjust acts performed by the rulers or the misapplication of Islam upon them.
Draft Constitution

Moderate will not mean not enforcing Islamic law. The entire point of this is to enforce Islamic Law, which is the Law of Allah. There are guidelines our Creator has given us through his Messengers, peace upon them all. We ignore these at our own peril.

Google Islamic State of Iraq. There is already part of Iraq called this. They have established the beginnings of the Khilafah thanks to the Americas (accidentally, I'm sure). Insha'Allah they will be successful. But we will not relent if they are not, God forbid.

We do not fear people choosing a different values system. We forbid it. Immorality is not something to accept and permit. The saying, "If everyone jumped off a bridge..." applies here. Just because everyone wants to drink and gamble and fornicate doesn't make it right. The rest of the world not under the domain of Islam will do as they wish. Once we have established our state, and achieved peace, we will only lead by example and without violence. Islam forbids aggression so you will not see aggressive wars as many of the Imperial powers of the past and present engage in.

You say that Islam forbids aggression this leads me to a question.
Are Bin Laden and his cronies not true representatives of Islam ?
As for the US being an imperial power why should the US tolerate acts of terrorism just to keep a few people in the middle east happy ?

You seem to overlook the fact that in a western society no one is forced to buy booze but we do have the choice to do so. I hardly drink and I don't gamble but I would always defend my right to. I find it curious that you find it is immoral for people to have access to booze and yet you support wide spread fire arms ownership much like the Christian right and many other Americans do.

It just so happens that I consider any government that is undemocratic and blends religion with the law to be grossly ill moral. The 21st century will be about the battle between western and Islamic values and climate change.

IMO if you didn't fear the system of western values then there would be no need outlaw western influence . If western culture is so morally wrong why not let popular support turn away western culture . No middle eastern government would have to interfere in the process and at the end of the day you would get your wish.

Who or what are the creators messengers ?

[edit on 30-4-2007 by xpert11]

Originally posted by xpert11
You say that Islam forbids aggression this leads me to a question.
Are Bin Laden and his cronies not true representatives of Islam ?

America has military bases all over the middle east, including Arabia (I do not like to call it Saudi). America also supports corrupt dictatorships in the mideast as long as they are friendly to US interests even though they oppress their own people. It only is against unfriendly dictators. That's why the "terrorism" is actually self-defense.

As for the US being an imperial power why should the US tolerate acts of terrorism just to keep a few people in the middle east happy ?

Wow. It is because of your policies that those people are not happy. And it because of the aggression of the US that America is receiving the response that it's getting. And by that I mean, expect more attacks.

According to George Tenet, the former CIA director who had 9/11 and the beginning of the "war on terror" on his watch, on CBS' 60 Minutes on Sunday Night. Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri (commonly referred to as Al-Qaeda's #2) had an attack about to take place on the New York subways in 2003, but called it off at the last minute. Why would a "terrorist" do that? Because the attack on the subways would have been on a smaller scale than the attacks of 9/11, and he didn't want to go backwards. The next attack on America will be even larger than 9/11. And these "terrorists" are ever patient.

Let's get one thing crystal clear. We do not hate freedom. It's your policies in our lands. However, we also do not want your freedom! You can keep it. Just remove yourselves from our lands and we'll leave you alone. It's that simple. Because of your greed for our resources, you will not leave. Therefore, the attacks will only increase, in number and efficiency.

You seem to overlook the fact that in a western society no one is forced to buy booze but we do have the choice to do so. I hardly drink and I don't gamble but I would always defend my right to. I find it curious that you find it is immoral for people to have access to booze and yet you support wide spread fire arms ownership much like the Christian right and many other Americans do.

Guns are just the new sword. And every man should have one. Having the ability to defend yourself and your people from invaders is a duty. Having the option to drink or gamble is haraam (sin), and in no way to be a considered a right.

It just so happens that I consider any government that is undemocratic and blends religion with the law to be grossly ill moral. The 21st century will be about the battle between western and Islamic values and climate change.

What are western values? The "freedom" to do anything you wish, because it feels good/right? Those are not values. Those are the base desires becoming the will of a depraved majority. But that is fine. For America.

Why must it be a battle? Why does America feel the need to bring what I call "selective freedom" to the Middle East? We do not want it. You will not succeed in this battle. Subhan Allah! The Muslims have defeated aggressors over and over and over and over again. This will not be different. Even at this point in time, when we are at our worse, we will not lose. Our victory is inevitable, insha'Allah. You cannot win because the goals you seek to achieve are unachievable. Any success you have will be extremely short-lived.

America is impatient, but we can wait as long as it takes.

I've done this before, but I will say it again. America is a young nation now in it's teenage years. It's walking around, puffing it's chest out, telling everyone how tough it is, and thinking it is always right. But as all arrogant kids about to enter their twenties, the real world is about to slap it down.

IMO if you didn't fear the system of western values then there would be no need outlaw western influence . If western culture is so morally wrong why not let popular support turn away western culture . No middle eastern government would have to interfere in the process and at the end of the day you would get your wish.

Who or what are the creators messengers ?

[edit on 30-4-2007 by xpert11]

Here's the difference: First of all, it's against the Law of Allah, and that's the end of the argument right there. But this is a discussion, so I will humor it.

If you allow the things that the west has allowed and allow people to make their choice between one or the other, the temptation is great. Allah has already told us what to avoid and how to avoid it. Why give the Whisperer (Satan) a chance to lure people?

Look at the current state of America. Is this a thing to envy? High rates of divorce, single parents, unruly kids, teen pregnancy, incrediblely high homocide rate, debauchery, drinking, gambling, prostitution, porn (capital in Cali), sex before marriage, diseases associated with all that, mental health problems increasing rapidly, etc, etc.... I could literally go on and on.

The one thing America has had is wealth, and that is not always a thing to envy. I believe that wealth, if you haven't squandered it all, will be a chain around the neck of America sooner than later, insha'Allah.


The Creator is Allah (God).

The Messengers are all the Prophets, peace be upon them all.

Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad, sallallahu alayhi wassalam, being the last. (there are more than just these, but these are the more popular).

[edit on 30-4-2007 by AbuMusaab]

Since 9-11 the US has been less supportive of many of the regimes in the middle east. I'm not a fan of the US - Saudi relationship . I can only see such a unhealthily relationship ending when the US ends its reliance on middle east oil.
Self defence who do you think you are kidding ?
Murdering three thousand innocent people isnt self defence nor is blowing yourself up in a market place in order to under mine the elected government of Iran.

If the regimes in the middle east didn't brainwash there local populations into hating the USA the locals would question why they live under oppression and in some cases poorer living standards. People would also question why they have to live by Islamic law.

The US leave the middle east ?
That aren't going to happen any time soon due to the extremists in Iraq that are waging a civil war. Of course terrorists are patient the problem is there putting there intelligence to the wrong use. Islamic extremist fear and probably hate the concept of freedom in an indirect sense. More then anything else the government Iran and other regimes in the region fear a democratic Iraq because people would ask the same questions I outlined above.

Western values as I term it is based upon a democratic government and society. Remember the same freedom that allows people to drink at a pub allows the flow of ideas and free enterprise which leads to prosperity. You can also include people have a greater say in running the economy via free markets. The degree of control that the government has over the free market is what is often debated.

Given the number of people who voted in Iraq the victory you seek goes against the will of the Iraqi people . Really the only question is if the reforms in the middle east should come internally of from regime changes. Unless the Islamic extremists are defeated and the middle east and other regions in the world adopted a more moderate and democratic society the free world will always live under the cloud of the threat of Islamic terrorism.

The goal of bringing democracy to Iraq was always going to be a difficult but not impossible mission . However incompetent civilian leaders botched the mission. I was never a supporter of Gulf War Two but I do think that it would be unacceptable to allow Iraq to fall into the hands of Islamic wack jobs who would present a greater security threat then Saddam did.

America isnt perfect nor is any other western country. I would prefer a High rates of divorce rather then women having no rights. I will leave it to an American to pass judgement on the countries homocide rate. Only a minorty of society is effected in a bad way by drinking and gambling. I have no problem with sex before marriage or people watching porn if they choose to. Single parents and teen pregnancy are issues that need to be dealt with but religion isnt the answer.

Mental health problems have always been around its just in recent times elements of society have chosen not to hide the problem in a closet.

Here is the problem in a nut shell suppressing personal freedoms in the name of a higher power and alleged sins is preventing the people of middle east from becoming great again once more. You have to put up with the minority of the population suffering ill effects in order to grant people the freedom they need to produce new ideas which leads to scientific discovers and prosperity. Sure wealth and material objects aren't everything in life but I would take both over Islamic rule any day.