9/11 Radar Tracking

How much more do i need to post,, you will not believe official documents ?

Yes I will. If you can find one that says something specific, rather than the vague statement that 'some' were 'pressed into service'. Whooopy doo.

I have also found further reference to the very first Vulcan tanker conversion, which was XH561, flying from Woodford on June 18 1982 in Vic Flintham's 'Aircraft In British Military Service' which is a comprehensive registry of every aeroplane type and mark operated by the UK military since the end of World War 2 and every single unit which operated them, and at what base etc etc, you get the picture.

If a Vulcan tanker had flown even a single mission in the Falklands War it would be recorded here, but it isn't, because it didn't happen.

Furthermore, it states that the Vulcan conversion was brought about to free more Victors from UK based operations to go to the South Atlantic, so, you see, even if the Vulcan K.2 had been ready before the end of the war, it was never intended to use it down there. Instead it was purely a stopgap for use at home.


Additional quote found in the MoD diary from 15th May, including modern day correction

Lots of rumours, news from UK. XM651 is undergoing conversion to tanker at Woodford (subsequently discovered to be incorrect should be XH561).

[edit on 2-4-2007 by waynos]

Originally posted by waynos

MoD Falklands diary
Notice, in the middle of May, initial briefing that Vulcan tankers are being pursued in the UK by BAe at Woodford, not operated by the RAF in the South Atlantic.

[edit on 2-4-2007 by waynos]

So you only want to believe certain government documents? Well i gues i will just have to get more untill you can be willing to admit anything.

Mod note: please review ATS Terms and Conditions. Offensive and disrespectful posts are not permitted. Nor are one-liners.

[edit on 3-4-2007 by The Vagabond]

Originally posted by sp00n1
There are HUGE holes in radar coverage over the United States, and in fact they're trying to SHUT DOWN primary radar sites all over the country.

And it seemed like the terrorist knew where the holes were, specially the ones in flight 77 since they went off radar for a while.

You think so? Do some basic research, it's not that hard.

Steps were taken to improve the air defense warning system long before President Reagan announced his Strategic Defense Initiative. The absorption of ADCOM into TAC in 1980 came during the transition to a system that had been envisioned by the Brown Plan over a decade earlier. The DoD and the FAA had been negotiating throughout the1970s for the FAA to assume control of most tracking duties as part of a proposed Joint Surveillance System. To create the JSS, during 1979 and 1980 TAC closed down twenty-seven SAGE radar sites. Some of these sites were retained to become FAA-operated JSS sites. In other cases, the former ADCOM sites were placed in caretaker status. At some operational FAA sites, a small Air Force detachment arrived to install and operate a height-finder radar. Radars built for the FAA did not have a height-finding capability.

In the early 1980s, when the JSS project was completed, the JSS operated forty-six long-range radar sites. Thirty-one of the sites had FAA-operated search radars and Air Force-manned height-finder radars. Five sites had FAA radars that simply provided a data tie to one of the SAGE Regional Control Centers (RCC). The ten remaining long-range radar sites were operated by the military. Six of those sites were operated by the Air Force. The Oceana Naval Air Station site in Virginia was jointly operated by the Navy and Air Force. Contractors operated a radar at Lake Charles, Louisiana, and Civil Service personnel operated a radar at Point Arena, California. The remaining DoD site, at Cudjoe Key, Florida, used a radar that was flown within an aerostat balloon. 81

Much remains of the air and aerospace detection, command, and control systems built during the Cold War. Although only a fraction of the radar stations built during the1950s and 1960s remain in military hands, many are still operational under FAA control. However, the FAA is in the process of completing its modernization program to replace Air Force 1960s vintage FPS model radars. At former ADC sites, the radars have been removed and the facilities have been converted to perform new functions. Many sites, especially in remote locations, simply have been abandoned.

The blockhouses that once hosted SAGE centers remain intact at many locations, although the Whirlwind II computers and command consoles have long been removed. The four ROCCs built during the 1980s remain intact and operational. The intruding aircraft in the 1990s represent a different threat; attempting to smuggle illegal drugs into the country.

www.fas.org...

We need to see what the FAA radar can see because the FAA is the most likely agency to let us know that an attack is in progress from within the country. It will be the most likely agency to know that an airplane is not squawking, is off its flight plan, and is in airspace where it should not be. To that end, the FAA and the Air Force have spent a lot of money hooking up these radars as we go forward. We also have to be able to communicate with the FAA and with fighters within the central part of the United States. We have developed backup capability very rapidly with a telephone patch through the FAA to any aircraft flying in the United States. If we know where that aircraft is flying and what control center is working with it, we call the FAA to patch us to the cockpit of that aircraft. For a while that was the only capability we had. Now it’s a backup capability.

www.codeonemagazine.com...

Now, if the military has all these amazing defense radars all over the country, why is the COMMANDER OF NORAD saying that the FAA is the most likely organization to know if a plane isn't where it's supposed to be and wandering off course? Hmm? BS? I don't think so.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by sp00n1
There are HUGE holes in radar coverage over the United States, and in fact they're trying to SHUT DOWN primary radar sites all over the country.

And it seemed like the terrorist knew where the holes were, specially the ones in flight 77 since they went off radar for a while.

And basic research, which you seem to always say you do, can give you an idea of where they are, simply by talking about where the Primary radar sites are. If you know where they are, you know where the holes are.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
And basic research, which you seem to always say you do, can give you an idea of where they are, simply by talking about where the Primary radar sites are. If you know where they are, you know where the holes are.

You can find coverage areas but you have to know what kind of radar you are dealing with to now how to avoid it.

Oh i guess you can find out where the restricted areas are covered too.

By the way i work with the Elint Parameter Listing. so i know a little about radar.





[edit on 2-4-2007 by ULTIMA1]

So you only want to believe certain government documents?

Are you for real? You regard a staff college reading package as an 'official government document' above an actual diary of events published by the Ministry of Defence itself?

Bizarre!

I've found documents on the net that talk about radar coverage in the United States, and how it needs to be upgraded. And that talk about where many Primary sites are located.

And as a matter of fact YES, the FARs for restricted sites are on the net as well. There is an FAR for most of this information. They show where different classes of airspace are located, which is another good way to have an idea where radar coverage is spotty, where restricted sites are (don't you think that MAYBE pilots should know where restricted airspace is when they're flying BEFORE they fly into it?), where military controlled airspace is, etc. All the things that pilots need to know BEFORE they take off on their flight.

[edit on 4/2/2007 by Zaphod58]

quote]Originally posted by waynos
Are you for real? You regard a staff college reading package as an 'official government document' above an actual diary of events published by the Ministry of Defence itself?


Yes i am for real since i deal with government documets on a daily bases.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
(don't you think that MAYBE pilots should know where restricted airspace is when they're flying BEFORE they fly into it?), where military controlled airspace is, etc. All the things that pilots need to know BEFORE they take off on their flight.

Yes well trained pilots know where restricted airspace is, but the terrorist were not well trained pliots.

[edit on 2-4-2007 by ULTIMA1]

Well trained nothing. ALL pilots know where they are, because one of the first books they have to buy for pilot training is the latest FAR manual that has all that information in it. So what, unless you're well trained you're allowed to fly through restricted airspace, because you can't get the information to where it is?

So if your so great how come you are so easily led by a college report containing NO actual data?

How come you think you are an 'analysist'?

How come you think you spell 'basis' with an 'e' (cue quick edit of previous reply, lol)

I notice that my request for some data of substance is instead met with a statement of how important/clever you are.

I think that tells me what I need to know about the kind of person I am dealing with here. If you had any reliable information to back up the claim you are making you would have presented it by now. Instead you are merely trying to use delaying tactics while desperately looking for help.

I did have a chuckle though when your claim to have access to detailed official information to back your claim up was followed a short while later by a request for information on the Aircraft board - ooh, great connections!

I also notice that you have offered not one shred of information to refute the detailed information I have provided you with, how could you? That information 100% accurate and you are simply wasting my time.

Yes i am for real since i deal with government documets on a daily bases (sic)

Yet still you have NOTHING to show in evidence? Why did you ingore the rest of my question about trusting the college paper over the MoD? Was it too hard?



[edit on 2-4-2007 by waynos]

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Well trained nothing. ALL pilots know where they are, because one of the first books they have to buy for pilot training is the latest FAR manual that has all that information in it. So what, unless you're well trained you're allowed to fly through restricted airspace, because you can't get the information to where it is?

So you know new pilots that know exactly where all the radars are and how to avoid them ? It takes some hours of flying around to know how to get around certain radars. What experience do you have with radars ?

All you have to know is where the primary antenna is. You can figure out approximately where you're going to drop off its screens if you know the type of radar used, which you can find out online, and what the APPROXIMATE range is. The farther from the antenna you are, the weaker the return, so you don't even have to completely avoid it, and you can probably get past it.

However, please tell me how in one post you are talking about restricted airspace and only well trained pilots know where it is, and then suddenly talking about radar in the next? ALL pilots know where restricted airspace is, through the FARs. As for radar you CAN find out how to get around it, without being some super well trained Chuck Yeager type. It's not like radar coverage of the United States is some super classified information.

[edit on 4/2/2007 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by Zaphod58
All you have to know is where the primary antenna is. You can figure out approximately where you're going to drop off its screens[edit on 4/2/2007 by Zaphod58]

So these terrorist would know what radar covers what area and what frequency they put out ?

So tell me what type of radar do you know and what they can do ?

Are you kidding? Just doing BASIC RESEARCH four posts ago, I found a page that talked about what frequency they used, and even the range they went out to! The FAA radar information is NOT CLASSIFIED INFORMATION and can be found in several places.

These are just a FEW of the radar systems listed on ONE webpage that I found:

Beginning in the late 1950s, the Civil Air Administration (predecessor to the FAA) and the DoD began to cooperate to reduce duplication. By the late 1980s most radars performing air search for the military were operated by the FAA in the joint surveillance program. Because it is a civilian agency, the FAA uses a different radar designation system.

ARSR-1

This Raytheon-built Air Route Surveillance Radar (ARSR) was used by the FAA Authority Radar beginning in 1958. It operated on a L-band frequency of 1280 to 1350MHz with a maximum range of 200 miles.

ARSR-2

Developed by Raytheon in the 1960s as a replacement for the ARSR-1, this radar also operated in the L-band and had a similar maximum range to the ARSR-1.

ARSR-3,3D

This Westinghouse-built search radar was used by the FAA in the Joint Surveillance System (JSS). The radar operated in the L-band at 1250 to 1350 MHz and detected targets at a distance beyond 240 miles. The D model had height-finder capability.

www.fas.org...

Boy, that was hard information to find.

Oh look, here's a SECOND page that has even MORE:

The FAA also operates several versions of Air Route Surveillance Radars (ARSRs) for air traffic control in the adjacent 1215-1350 MHz band. These radars include the ARSR-1, ARSR-2, and ARSR-3. The ARSR-4 Long Range Radar (LRR) Replacement program is designed to replace obsolete FAA air route surveillance radars (ARSR-1/2) and Air Force long range radars (FPS-20/60 series) at 39 operational joint-use facilities with new ARSR-4 systems, establish a new ARSR-4 "FAA only" site at Caribou, Maine, provide 1 ARSR-4 system to the FAA's training and support facility in Oklahoma City, OK, and deliver 3 additional systems to the Department of Defense. Forty-three of the 44 total systems have been installed and accepted from the contractor, Northrop Grumman Corporation, as part of the FAA/Air Force Radar Replacement (FARR) program.

Compared to the radars it replaced, the ARSR-4 is more reliable, easier to maintain, and increases the radar coverage area from 200 to 250 nautical miles. This three-dimensional, solid state, unattended, long rang surveillance radar has an operational frequency range of 1215-1400 MHz and uses dual-channel frequency hopping technology for long-range and anti-jam search and tracking, and is capable of detecting small objects by minimizing clutter, weather, and multipath effects. Each channel pair requires 83 MHz of frequency separation to maintain its highest possible reliability. This radar system supports defense of the national airspace and provides initial coastal civil air traffic control.

www.fas.org...

That took less than five minutes, most of which was simply finding where on the page the information was located.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Are you kidding? Just doing BASIC RESEARCH four posts ago, I found a page that talked about what frequency they used, and even the range they went out to! The FAA radar information is NOT CLASSIFIED INFORMATION and can be found in several places.

Yes, but thier are also places that have more then 1 type of radar covering an area.

You would have to know how to get around all different radar and trying to fly a plane you are not familiar with.

You still did not answer the question what you knew about radar.



[edit on 2-4-2007 by ULTIMA1]

And the areas where they flew had ONE type, and only ONE radar covering the area.

As for what I know about radar, I know enough about how it works and the US coverage to comment in this thread about it. Unlike you I haven't done everything and worked in every major job the US has though.

Oh, and just so it's clear...I am the King of Spain.

Por que yo puedo escribir en espanol, entonces soy el Rey de Espana.

Facil, No?