9/11 Radar Tracking

But wasn't it a terrorist wanting a crash? Why on earht would anyone try to mitigate the impact? I think either the report about the gear coming down was mistaken or the gear coming down was an involuntary act (ie the damage option I mentioned earlier or the guy simply hit a wrong switch).

Originally posted by waynos
At this juncture ultima1, may I ask why we are even debating about possible pods on these planes and what the relevance is. That basic point seems to have got lost among the squabbling.

Also, if not a 757, what else? The engine components are (I believe) fairly conclusively from an RB211 (I know you disagree).

1. The thing about the pods was jusit to prove a point.

2. We do not have the facts and reports to state that flight 77 hit the Pentagon.

Originally posted by waynos
But wasn't it a terrorist wanting a crash? Why on earht would anyone try to mitigate the impact? I think either the report about the gear coming down was mistaken or the gear coming down was an involuntary act (ie the damage option I mentioned earlier or the guy simply hit a wrong switch).

As i stated i believe the pilot (who had little training) beleived if he dropped the landing gear it would somehow slow him down and he could recover the plane.




[edit on 29-3-2007 by ULTIMA1]

I agree that there is nothing firm to prove conclusively that it was definitely flight 77, However I am sure it was a Boeing 757 for the reasons we are going through on the other thread, and an American Airlines one at that. So if not flight 77, what? and Why?

This, to me, is bearing all the hallmarks of refuting any evidence at all immediately out of hand in preference to reports, hearsay and guesswork. That can't be right?

You might consider the evidence flimsy (I do not) but the evidence for the opposite side of the argument is non existant.

Originally posted by waynos
You might consider the evidence flimsy (I do not) but the evidence for the opposite side of the argument is non existant.

Well i am happy you are satisfied but i am a former Crew Chief and now a data analysist and need something called facts, and reports.

www.militaryperiscope.com...

[edit on 29-3-2007 by ULTIMA1]

Well, I wouldn't want to cast aspersions on your abilities as a data analyst but I find it strange that someone in that profession would just pick and choose what data to analyse and what to ignore (not to mention being unable to spell their own job title).

For example I find it strange that in the other thread you post Janes data on the 757 to prove that the 757 and 737 use a common wheel, without using any 737 data to back it up. I looked up the 737 in Janes myself and it completely contradicts your claim, as I have pointed out in that thread.

I'd say that proves you are very selective in what data and evidence you analyse, and not in a good way.

[edit on 29-3-2007 by waynos]

Back to the landing gear, if I were the pilot I would of rather landed a little early ensuring a Pentagon hit instead of overshooting the whole building.

Yeah, but it would be easier to put the plane on the ground on its belly than risk lowering the landing gear and having the airflow change pull you to the side, or change the dynamics of the flight.

Originally posted by waynos
For example I find it strange that in the other thread you post Janes data on the 757 to prove that the 757 and 737 use a common wheel, without using any 737 data to back it up. I looked up the 737 in Janes myself and it completely contradicts your claim, as I have pointed out in that thread.

Please show me where it states in Janes that the 737 does not use a Dunlop or Goodrich wheel.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Yeah, but it would be easier to put the plane on the ground on its belly than risk lowering the landing gear and having the airflow change pull you to the side, or change the dynamics of the flight.

Lowering the landing gear at the speed the plane was doing would have probly been to much for the untrained pilotto handle and would have crashed.

Whether it uses a Dunlop or Goodrich tire proves NOTHING, considering that a huge number of planes use Dunlop or Goodrich tires. The only thing about the tire that proves ANYTHING is the tire and wheel size. And the two planes use different sized wheels and tires. The wheel at the Pentagon could only have come from a 757, because it's the only rim that matches up. The 737 uses a smaller wheel.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
The wheel at the Pentagon could only have come from a 757, because it's the only rim that matches up. The 737 uses a smaller wheel.

Yes, thank you for agreeeing with me that other planes use that type of wheel.

Please show me where it states the size tire and wheel at the Pentagon.

[edit on 30-3-2007 by ULTIMA1]

Where did I agree that it uses the same wheel? You seem to think that Dunlop and Goodrich only make one type of tire. They make DOZENS of DIFFERENT tires. Goodrich makes tires for everything from the 707 to the 747, and more. Are you trying to say that because they make them for those planes they all use the same wheel size?

You claim to be an analyst, do an analysis. Simply to go the page that I linked yesterday and ANALYZE the different WHEELS (and by the way TIRE and WHEEL are different). The ONLY plane that used a wheel rim that looked like the one at the Pentagon was the 757-200.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Where did I agree that it uses the same wheel? You seem to think that Dunlop and Goodrich only make one type of tire. They make DOZENS of DIFFERENT tires. Goodrich makes tires for everything from the 707 to the 747, and more. Are you trying to say that because they make them for those planes they all use the same wheel size?

I was debating the statment that the 757 wheel was a custom "wheel" only made for that plane, i was showing that the 757 is a common "wheel" and used on other aircraft.

You are making the same point i was making that Dunlop and Goodrich "wheels" are used on more then just a 757.

The 757 uses a Dunlop or Goodrich wheel, the 737 uses the same type of wheel.

No, it uses the same type of TIRE. The wheel is the hub that it goes on, which is what was found at the Pentagon. The WHEEL for the 757 *IS* unique. But even then, the 737 and the 757 use different tires as well. And there's no way you can fit a 737 tire on the wheel for a 757.

wheel /ʰwil, wil/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hweel, weel] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a circular frame or disk arranged to revolve on an axis, as on or in vehicles or machinery.
2. any machine, apparatus, instrument, etc., shaped like this or having a circular frame, disk, or revolving drum as an essential feature: a potter's wheel; roulette wheel; spinning wheel.

dictionary.reference.com...

tire2 /taɪər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[tahyuhr] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, noun, verb, tired, tir·ing.
–noun
1. a ring or band of rubber, either solid or hollow and inflated, or of metal, placed over the rim of a wheel to provide traction, resistance to wear, or other desirable properties.
2. a metal band attached to the outside of the felloes and forming the tread of a wagon wheel.

dictionary.reference.com...

I would think that as a former USAF crew chief you would know the difference between a tire and a wheel.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
The WHEEL for the 757 *IS* unique. But even then, the 737 and the 757 use different tires as well. And there's no way you can fit a 737 tire on the wheel for a 757.

The wheel for the 757 is from Dunlop or Goodrich. Other planes also use Dunlop and Goodrich wheels. Let me find you some photos of other planes with the same type wheel so i can explain it to you.

The only newer Boeing that uses a special custom wheel is the 777.

[edit on 30-3-2007 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by waynos
Apart from technical drawings sourced from Rolls Royce and Janes, they are also a match with the drawings in the Boeing spares and accessories catalogue (I never previously even knew there was such a thing).

What, you mean like shoes, handbags, that sort of thing?

Sorry, just had a bizarre mental picture at reading that line.

Even if the wheels ARE made by Dunlop or Goodrich, that doesn't make them the same. The wheel rims on a 737 are NOT the same as on a 757, and there aren't any other planes in the same class of the 757 that have a rim that shape. The 767 uses a slightly bigger rim because it's a heavier plane, and the 737 uses a smaller rim because it's not as heavy.

You only have to look at the tire sizes to realize that the wheel sizes are different as well. You're not going to fit a 14 inch tire on a 14.5 inch wheel.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
You only have to look at the tire sizes to realize that the wheel sizes are different as well. You're not going to fit a 14 inch tire on a 14.5 inch wheel.

But we do not knbow what size tire and wheel was found at the Pentagon.

God this is becoming a circular argument. Even without knowing the wheel size, there are PHYSICAL differences between a 737 and a 757 wheel. For one, the 737 has three cutouts around the center hub that the 757 doesn't have. It also has a slightly different shape to the center hub than the 757 does. You would know this if you had bothered to even LOOK at any pictures of the two of them.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
God this is becoming a circular argument. Even without knowing the wheel size, there are PHYSICAL differences between a 737 and a 757 wheel.

But the point was that the 757 does not have a special wheel. Thier are other planes that use that type of wheel.

Check out what type of wheel the following planes use. If we knew what size the wheel and tire was at the Pentagon then we would know what plane it was from.

I wonder if these planes use Dunlop or Goodrich wheels, just a few off the top of my head.

Airbus A-310
ATR-42
Boeing 727
Boeing 737
BAC-111
BAE-125 / Hawker 800

[edit on 30-3-2007 by ULTIMA1]