What is the real Flight 77 timeline?

PLEASE NOTE: The full post consists of three parts due to posting restrictions.

Whilst the 'did it or didn't it' debate rages where the impact of Flight 77 into the Pentagon is concerned, very little attention appears to have been paid to the rather bizarre inconsistencies associated with the timeline.

I'll start with a look at an extract from the 9/11 Commission Report, page 27

At the suggestion of the Boston Center’s military liaison, NEADS contacted the FAA’s Washington Center to ask about American 11. In the course of the conversation, a Washington Center manager informed NEADS: “We’re looking – we also lost American 77.” The time was 9:34. This was the first notice to the military that American 77 was missing, and it had come by chance. If NEADS had not placed that call, the NEADS air defenders would have received no information whatsoever that the flight was missing, although the FAA had been searching for it. No one at FAA headquarters ever asked for military assistance with American 77.

But this is markedly at odds with the testimony given by Colonel Alan Scott to the 9/11 Commission's Public Hearing of May 23rd 2003.

At 9:24 the FAA reports a possible hijack of 77. That's sometime after they had been tracking this primary target. And at that moment as well is when the Langley F-16s were scrambled out of Langley.

The Commission’s findings are also contradicted by a statement written by Mr. Asmus and Ms. Schuessler of the FAA, which was read out during that same hearing, entitled ‘FAA Communications with NORAD on September 11th, 2001’.

Within minutes after the first aircraft hit the World Trade Center, the FAA immediately established several phone bridges that included FAA field facilities, the FAA command center, FAA headquarters, DOD, the Secret Service and other government agencies. The U.S. Air Force liaison to the FAA immediately joined the FAA headquarters phone bridge and established contact with NORAD on a separate line. The FAA shared real-time information on the phone bridges about the unfolding events, including information about loss of communication with aircraft, loss of transponder signals, unauthorized changes in course, and other actions being taken by all the flights of interest, including Flight 77. Other parties on the phone bridges in turn shared information about actions they were taken. NORAD logs indicate that the FAA made formal notification about American Flight 77 at 9:24 a.m. But information about the flight was conveyed continuously during the phone bridges before the formal notification.

The FAA’s claim that NORAD’s logs confirm the notification time of 9:24 are true. This output from www.norad.mil..." target="_blank" class="postlink">PETERSON AFB shows the timelines (in EDT) for NORAD’s response to the airliner hijackings on September 11, 2001. Here is the record for Flight 77 (reformatted):

• American Flight 77 - Dulles enroute to Los Angeles
  
• FAA Notification to NEADS – 0924
  
• Fighter Scramble - Order (Langley AFB, Hampton, Va. 2 F-16s) – 0924
  
• Fighters Airborne 0930
  
• Airline Impact Time (Pentagon) - 0937(estimated)
  
• Fighter Time/Distance from Airline Impact Location - approx 12 min/105 miles
  

So, Colonel Alan Scott, the FAA and NORAD all concur on the notification time – 9:24 – yet the 9/11 Commission concluded that “NORAD was unaware that the plane had even been hijacked until after it crashed into the Pentagon at 9:34." How did the Commission reach this conclusion?

It seems that they believe the details of Flight 77 were confused with those of a ‘phantom’ Flight 11. They claim, on page 34 of their report, that the Langley fighters were scrambled in response to a...

…report that American 11 was heading south [when it had actually hit WTC1 at 8:46], as is clear not just from taped conversations at NEADS but also from taped conversations at FAA centers; contemporaneous logs compiled at NEADS, Continental Region headquarters, and NORAD; and other records.

This confusion is then almost casually swept aside as radar ‘blips’ associated with a war game that was running on the morning of September 11th. But this cannot be so. According to NORAD Commander Larry Arnold, this game (Operation Vigilant Guardian) was truncated after the impact of Flight 175, which occurred a little after 9:03. Further when asked by 9/11 Commissioner Tim Roemer whether the Operations that were running that day helped or hindered NORAD's response, General Elberhart, who was in charge of NORAD on 9/11, replied...

Sir, my belief is that it helped because of the manning, because of the focus, because the crews - they have to be airborne in 15 minutes and that morning, because of the exercise, they were airborne in six or eight minutes. And so I believe that focus helped.

At this stage, things simply look confusing. But when we add the testimony of Norman Mineta, acting Secretary of Transportation on 9/11, into the mix, it’s clear something is very wrong with the way the details of Flight 77 have been reported.

Mineta testified that he entered the Presidential Emergency Operations Center (PEOC) at 9:20am, where Vice President Dick Cheney was in charge. Here is the relevant extract.

MR. HAMILTON: We thank you for that. I wanted to focus just a moment on the Presidential Emergency Operating Center. You were there for a good part of the day. I think you were there with the vice president. And when you had that order given, I think it was by the president, that authorized the shooting down of commercial aircraft that were suspected to be controlled by terrorists, were you there when that order was given?

MR. MINETA: No, I was not. I was made aware of it during the time that the airplane coming into the Pentagon. There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" [later in his testimony, Mineta says that this series of exchanges began “Probably about five or six minutes” after entering the PEOC] Well, at the time I didn't know what all that meant. And –

MR. HAMILTON: The flight you're referring to is the –

MR. MINETA: The flight that came into the Pentagon.

MR. HAMILTON: The Pentagon, yeah.

MR. MINETA: And so I was not aware that that discussion had already taken place. But in listening to the conversation between the young man and the vice president, then at the time I didn't really recognize the significance of that.
And then later I heard of the fact that the airplanes had been scrambled from Langley to come up to DC, but those planes were still about 10 minutes away. And so then, at the time we heard about the airplane that went into Pennsylvania, then I thought, "Oh, my God, did we shoot it down?" And then we had to, with the vice president, go through the Pentagon to check that out.

MR. HAMILTON: Let me see if I understand. The plane that was headed toward the Pentagon and was some miles away, there was an order to shoot that plane down.

MR. MINETA: Well, I don't know that specifically, but I do know that the airplanes were scrambled from Langley or from Norfolk, the Norfolk area. But I did not know about the orders specifically other than listening to that other conversation.

MR. HAMILTON: But there very clearly was an order to shoot commercial aircraft down.

MR. MINETA: Subsequently I found that out.

If Mineta’s testimony is accurate, Cheney must have issued the order at some time before 9:26. This is just 2 minutes after NORAD say they were notified that Flight 77 had been hijacked; 4 minutes before the F15’s from Langley were airborne; and some 8 minutes before the 9/11 Commission claims the FAA sought military assistance.

More troubling, however, is that, according to page 40 of the 9/11 Commission Report, the events described my Mineta occurred 32 minutes before Cheney even entered the PEOC.

There is conflicting evidence about when the Vice President arrived in the shelter conference room. We have concluded, from the available evidence [principally the Shelter Log], that the Vice President arrived in the room shortly before 10:00, perhaps at 9:58.

So which timeline is accurate? It appears that Mineta’s is probably the closest.

Based upon the FAA’s ‘Report of Aircraft [Flight 77] Accident’, November 13th, 2001, the 9/11 Commission concludes, on page 9 that…

At 9:29, the autopilot on American 77 was disengaged; the aircraft was at 7,000 feet and approximately 38 miles west of the Pentagon

This suggests Mineta’s claim that the aircraft was reported to be 50 miles out at 9:26 is perhaps a minute or so out but, nonetheless, broadly accurate. It also helps establish Cheney presence in the PEOC at 9:26 (+/- 1 minute) and not 9:58 as the 9/11 Commission has reported. Further, it seems to confirm that the 9/11 Commission is wrong about the time NORAD was notified of the hijacking.

There is, however, one significant unresolved issue as far as Mineta’s testimony is concerned: what was the nature of Cheney’s order? Based upon the information available, it’s difficult to believe, as Mineta did, that it was a shoot-down order. If the order had been to shoot Flight 77 down, it would be difficult to explain why the aide repeatedly asked if the order still stood. Clearly such an order, having been given, would have stood until the aircraft had been shot down. In this context, it seems that Cheney’s order must have been not to shoot Flight 77 down and instead to allow it to hit the Pentagon building. This then raises the question of whether fighters other than those from Langley (which we're told weren’t even airborne when the order was first confirmed) were actually in the air around Washington and within striking distance of Flight 77 from at least 50 miles out. Why else would the aide regularly check the order status unless the military were capable of acting upon a change to that order?

Of course, Dick Cheney could clear this up in an instant. Unfortunately he (and President Bush) insisted upon the following conditions before agreeing to give testimony to the 9/11 Commission

• They would be permitted to testify together
  
• They would not be required to take an oath before giving testimony
  
• The testimony would not be recorded
  
• The Commission's staff could take notes but these could not be made public
  

As a footnote to this episode, it’s worth remembering that both the Chairman and Vice Chairman of the 9/11 Commission have since admitted they didn't ask enough tough questions, and were lied to by both the government and the Pentagon.

Great stuff! I should be on it already...
A flag and bump...
tired tonight, three whole parts, good excuse to hit the snooze on it. Couldn't absorb that much anyway. I vill bee bock.

[edit on 22-3-2007 by Caustic Logic]

I'll go you one better. Flag, bump and

You have voted coughymachine for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Great stuff.

Thanks guys - I look forward to your thoughts.

Not many serious researchers left here these days...

First a note: War Games: The radar inserts were actually (or also?) for another drill, Northern Vigilance – blips purged after 2nd strike at 9:03 I've heard.

Nick and me worked on some of this earlier, FAA and no defense of DC
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Then I took off with it and did a few pieces - my fave point so far: the possible source of the “mistaken FAA information” that got the phantom 11 reported airborne at 9:20…
they-let-it-happen.blogspot.com...

As for the timeline, I’m still vague on the details… 9:34 the plane hit? Typo? I’ll take your points here into account with my next piece on the gutted defense… I'll be refining and updating my old numbers

Cheney not even in PEOC until 10:00? WTF? I never heard that one. He was supposed to be there since his SS dudes tossed him in a little after 9:03… Hmmm…

Cheney clearly seems the author of the shoot-down order. Clearly before Pentagon is hit at 9:38, by Mineta’s testimony. Bush only okayed it at 10:18… after the attack was over. Did Cheney know at 9:30 that his orders would go to the NMCC, sit idle until Rumsfeld arrived at 10:30, and then go to NEADS to NEVER be passed to fighter pilots? Or did he really think he was being a hero?

Vagueness of order: is this shoot down or stand down? Hmmm… that’s interesting. P49T put it that way, I can see it..

Based upon the information available, it’s difficult to believe, as Mineta did, that it was a shoot-down order. If the order had been to shoot Flight 77 down, it would be difficult to explain why the aide repeatedly asked if the order still stood. Clearly such an order, having been given, would have stood until the aircraft had been shot down. In this context, it seems that Cheney’s order must have been not to shoot Flight 77 down and instead to allow it to hit the Pentagon building.

I’d never thought it out like that, but good observation! It seems a dangerous order to give, too telling, if one knew or had a good clue that even a real order would get bottlenecked somewhere. Did he know about Leidig at NMCC and Sliney at FAA, Rummy intent to hid out until its over? Or fighters sent the wrong way with no intel and no order to act? If he did, he’d be free to shout out orders to kill and look good.. or shoot himself in the foot refusing to shoot down a known threat… just one slip is all it's take, like Mineta... I suspect another "slip" to lure us into a backfiring theory... or a seam. Just a heads up.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
As for the timeline, I’m still vague on the details… 9:34 the plane hit? Typo?

Ughh, sorry, this is a pre-post editing blunder on my part. Unfortunately (due to newbie status posting restrictions, I guess), I cannot edit my OP.

Instead of:

So, Colonel Alan Scott, the FAA and NORAD all concur on the notification time – 9:24 – yet the 9/11 Commission concluded that “NORAD was unaware that the plane had even been hijacked until after it crashed into the Pentagon at 9:34." How did the Commission reach this conclusion?

it should read...

So, Colonel Alan Scott, the FAA and NORAD all concur on the notification time – 9:24 – yet the 9/11 Commission concluded that NORAD was unaware that the plane had even been hijacked until 9:34, shortly before it crashed into the Pentagon. How did the Commission reach this conclusion?

Thanks for the spot.

There we go, page working again!

I just wanted to clarify, the "no serious researchers" thing was not a dig at you - it was about the lack of response. UP till then including me. Great analysis here, not quite WATS territory yet, and all my points were just what I had to add - const. criticism. Thanks for a great thread so far, let's see if anyone else weighs in.

OOPS on me too! Wrong link above: this is the one on the "mistaken" FAA memo...
they-let-it-happen.blogspot.com... me-or.html

[edit on 22-3-2007 by Caustic Logic]