Industrial Revolution

Has anyone put any serious thought into the implications of the ancient world having invented steam powered machinery some thousands of years before Britain ushered in the Industrial Revolution with steam power?

Originally posted by Starvald
Has anyone put any serious thought into the implications of the ancient world having invented steam powered machinery some thousands of years before Britain ushered in the Industrial Revolution with steam power?

Yes. (short answer)

Longer answer: what Heron did was actually built on other technology of the time -- the Egyptians had been making water powered devices before he came up with that. Like every good engineer, he studied the designs of the most advanced tech of his time and improved on them :
www.e-telescope.gr...

It was sophisticated for its time. His hydraulic systems were in use in many areas for centuries and his inventions are one of the foundations for our modern engineering.

Folks tend to ignore just how sophisticated the ancients and their technology really was, and how they developed both the math to describe it as well as the tools to make the devices.

Longer answer: what Heron did was actually built on other technology of the time

Herons a byrd isn't it

his full names was Heronas of Alexandria
but it was usually shortened to Hero

seeing as he was so close to the library makes you wonder where he got his ideas from doesnt it

Originally posted by Marduk

Longer answer: what Heron did was actually built on other technology of the time

Herons a byrd isn't it

Bah! Smart alec! In fact, one rendering of his name was Heron.

his full names was Heronas of Alexandria
but it was usually shortened to Hero

Y'know, I couldn't find that and couldn't remember it. Argh.

seeing as he was so close to the library makes you wonder where he got his ideas from doesnt it

At first, I thought "Bah! He's earlier than the library" but luckily for my reputation, I looked it up. You make an interesting point -- at the time, Alexandria was a center of learning and they had the famous library there. I think it's reasonable to believe he might have gotten a lot of his groundwork from the library.

There's rumors in Wikipedia of older steam engines... so that would actually make a lot of sense.

I like it.

Very interesting thought.
In theory it was proably well within their capabilities. Hero of Alexandria developed a rudimentary one, but it was never considered anything more than a novelty. The greeks had a good enough understanding of simple mechanics and behaviour of fluids to produce one, but if anyone in the ancient world was going to put it to use it would have proably been the much more practically minded romans, who had themselves taken many greek ideas and put them to actual use.

Even if they had created one though, how it would influence their future would depend on how it was implemented. If they had managed to develop some sort of locomotive, either in a ship (unlikey becuase of weight/fire hazard) or a simple railway, then i imagine that that it could have sustained the roman empire for far longer than it did in reality. The military implications are obvious. Imagine if the legions could have deployed into Germania, en masse, in a matter of days? the barbarian hordes would not know what had hit em . A railways effect on the economy and general populace as well could fill volumes.

In short, IF the romans developed a steam engine would be irrelevant. If they actully put it to practical use, and specifically used it for transport, then the effect would have revolutionized the empire. For example, if the roman empire hadnt fallen, we wouldnt have had the dark ages. Therefore no rennasicance, no industrial revolution. If the romans had acheived all that 1500 years back then hell, we could be colonizing space right now.....

Therefore no rennasicance, no industrial revolution. If the romans had acheived all that 1500 years back then hell, we could be colonizing space right now.....

it was the Romans new state religion that caused the dark ages in the first place
Doh


The earliest steam power I ever heard of was Archimedes steam cannon
it was detailed by Leonardo Da Vinci from his research at the vatican library, of course the original work which he copied from has been lost since the Library of Alexandria was completely accidentally not on purpose burnt by the catholics..... did I just say Catholics naahhh it was the Moslems who burnt it. Thats the official explanation of the Catholic church as to the libraries destruction and the fact that Islam didn't actually exist at the time just makes it so much more likely doesn't it



Leonardos drawing of Archimedes cannon

Mythbusters heard about this and tried to build one
it was crap and they calimed it was myth busted
which in my opinion means it was a genuine reality in ancient greece.
when two poofs fail to build something dangerous you can draw your own conclusions why they couldn't make it work
had it been Archimedes steam gay beret making machine they would have had no problem at all

funnily enough when ,M.I.T. students tried the same thing they had no problems creating something more powerful than modern ordnance
web.mit.edu...

Hero built on the work of Ctesibius known as the father of Pneumatics who was a contemporary of Archimedes and who was also from Alexandria
Archimedes though not from Alexandria was from syracuse and much of his work was known to be at the library as its referenced by a whole host of ancient writers before the accident with the matches and the lamp oil

Archimedes 287 BCE-212 BCE
Ctesibius 285BCE–222 BCE
Hero of Alexandria 10 BCE-70BCE

the other claim that the catholics burnt what was left of the library at alexandria which was stored at the temple of Dionysus is also blatantly false
they were in fact taking armloads of scrolls from the temple so they could be freely distributed around the ancient world when someone carelessly built a bonfire outside causing the smoke to make the monks carrying the scrolls drop them accidentally completely not on purpose into the fire.
Moslems also as it turned out were responsible for this fire as well
although they didn't actually exist for another 4 centuries. I would have absolved them from all responsibility for this but Cinlung insists that they were around since the creation of the earth so its fair comment that the fanatical religious secret hiding catholic bishop of Alexandria could claim that.
his nickname was " the right honourable torchy come on baby light my fire burn the heretics torchy pass me the lamp oil and matches Theophilus" by the way
though of course you won't see that nickname written in the history books on account of them all being burned and not by the catholics who were hundreds of miles away celebrating mass at the time
officially anyway

Still
Leonardo managed to get hold of a copy of Archmedes blueprint for a steam cannon from the Vatican Library which was entirely coincedentally founded around the same time that the Library of alexandria went up like a torch accidentally completely not on purpose
so
nothing to see here
move along
move along







[edit on 21-3-2007 by Marduk]

Im thinking though given the turbulations that the Industrialised world has basicaly costs us, do you believe that we were perhaps not sociologicaly ready to have the power of steam and the subsequent advances that would lead. Greece, Egypt etc had massive slave populations to basicaly shoulder any burdern of work so the majority of steam operated machinery were used more in a novelty fashion for toys and revolving doors and and temples in churches much to the wonderment of the people. But steam engines developed in Britain were designd out of a need to aleviate the burdens of the common man, thus making life easier however......we as a people at the time were insanely corrupt perpetuating this vicious cycle of greed and war. It was an utter hell world.

I think perhaps humanity basicaly missed its chance thousands of years ago, because of the obvious evils that existed then harnesssing the power of steam was never truly realised or persued to any great degree under more enlightend people and that was it. When we re discovered it prior to the industrial revolution, i think its a bit like going back in time and giving cavemen flamethrowers and panzer tanks.

Originally posted by Mr Jihad
Im thinking though given the turbulations that the Industrialised world has basicaly costs us, do you believe that we were perhaps not sociologicaly ready to have the power of steam and the subsequent advances that would lead.

The ancient world was rather different than the Christianized Roman Empire that followed it.

Greece, Egypt etc had massive slave populations to basicaly shoulder any burdern of work so the majority of steam operated machinery were used more in a novelty fashion for toys and revolving doors and and temples in churches much to the wonderment of the people.

Slavery wasn't that rife in Egypt.

Slaves were quite expensive. It's an extra mouth to feed, to get to medicatin, to house, to clothe. Only the more wealthy could afford them. The great number of people (lower middle class and poor) could simply not afford them, particularly since families in those ages could be quite large.

But steam engines developed in Britain were designd out of a need to aleviate the burdens of the common man, thus making life easier however.

There's a huge difference here, and it has to do with metallurgy and machining techniques. If the Greeks had that kind of forging and metals and so forth available to them (see the Ankythera mechanism, which indicates they could have done it) then we'd have seen an earlier steam age.

Instead, the age devolved into religious empires, each of which wanted to kill scientists and scholars who taught things that were against their holy books. Libraries were burned, scientists were murdered, and the religious promoted. If that revolt against reason had not occurred, we'd have progressed much further by today.

Ancients did create simple mechanical robots and used steam in their operation and to create the illusion of Magic ; opening doors on cue, operation of simple instruments etc.
Imagine not understanding simple mechanical principles and witnessing large doors opening by themselves, curtains rising, etc...it would make the priests / rulers appear as all powerfull to attending masses.

Originally posted by Marduk
Mythbusters heard about this and tried to build one
it was crap and they calimed it was myth busted
which in my opinion means it was a genuine reality in ancient greece.
when two poofs fail to build something dangerous you can draw your own conclusions why they couldn't make it work
had it been Archimedes steam gay beret making machine they would have had no problem at all

funnily enough when ,M.I.T. students tried the same thing they had no problems creating something more powerful than modern ordnance

I noticed the same thing with those guys. One show had them building some ancient mirror sun/laser thingy to burn boats that they promptly busted because they couldn't work it. Those bumblers couldn't even make their boats float!

On another show entirely I saw some college kids (coulda been MIT) make the exact same thing and burnt the crap out of their boats!

(edited to add link)
Hey yeah! Same group:
web.mit.edu...

[edit on 3/28/2007 by whargoul]

Originally posted by whargoul

Originally posted by Marduk
Mythbusters heard about this and tried to build one
it was crap and they calimed it was myth busted
which in my opinion means it was a genuine reality in ancient greece.
when two poofs fail to build something dangerous you can draw your own conclusions why they couldn't make it work
had it been Archimedes steam gay beret making machine they would have had no problem at all

funnily enough when ,M.I.T. students tried the same thing they had no problems creating something more powerful than modern ordnance

I noticed the same thing with those guys. One show had them building some ancient mirror sun/laser thingy to burn boats that they promptly busted because they couldn't work it. Those bumblers couldn't even make their boats float!

On another show entirely I saw some college kids (coulda been MIT) make the exact same thing and burnt the crap out of their boats!

(edited to add link)
Hey yeah! Same group:
web.mit.edu...

[edit on 3/28/2007 by whargoul]

MIT students are clever, but apparently not clever enough to realize that ancient time warships did not generally travel on concrete parking lots. They travel in water, and are thus... wet.

Plus the mirrors in this (and mythbusters) would hardly fit on another ship.

Personally I dont know why they dont use big magnifying glasses? We can burn ants to crisp that way, why not ships? It would require *alot* less than a wide array of mirrors: one to focus the light from the sun, another to focus the light this beam creates (so you can tweak it based on the sun position).

And if Archimedes didnt use magnifying glasses... Well I'm sure he could have thought them up

Originally posted by merka

MIT students are clever, but apparently not clever enough to realize that ancient time warships did not generally travel on concrete parking lots. They travel in water, and are thus... wet.

Plus the mirrors in this (and mythbusters) would hardly fit on another ship.

Personally I dont know why they dont use big magnifying glasses? We can burn ants to crisp that way, why not ships? It would require *alot* less than a wide array of mirrors: one to focus the light from the sun, another to focus the light this beam creates (so you can tweak it based on the sun position).

And if Archimedes didnt use magnifying glasses... Well I'm sure he could have thought them up

Cmon, even back then they had clever fellas. Why would they shoot their deathray at the wet parts!?!

I would guess against the magnifying glass because the work to create a lens is a bit harder then then creating a mirror. I don't know if multiple (small) magnifying glasses could concentrate enough at one spot, it's possible I guess, but once agian all those lenses would be tough to grind out. From your example I would guess you would need 2 really big lenses and I think this (from a manufacturing standpoint) would have been impractical.

Also, the hundreds of mirrors weren't supposed to be mounted in another boat, they were supposed to have been a land based defense.

Remeber the whole myth thing wasn't just a made up "could they have used this tech" question. It came from old stories that claimed they did have this kind of tech, and it was a test to find the fessibility of the claim! The MIT guys showed it was fessable, the Mythbusters guys showed it was not (but were bumbling along the whole way, and not inspiring confidence in their abilities).

Sooo... Mythbusters: Busted!

Originally posted by Starvald
Has anyone put any serious thought into the implications of the ancient world having invented steam powered machinery some thousands of years before Britain ushered in the Industrial Revolution with steam power?

As Byrd & Marduk mentioned before me the answer is yes. These eras science had a different meaning from the today usage and implementation.

Today we see science as a notion of social accession. Science is regarded as a mean to improve our life and explore unknown things. Mostly, these eras the economic aspect around things and perspective of life hadn't been developed. So money weren't the motive spring to accord projects.

People from these days as Daedalus (you forgot the forerunner of planes Marduk :lol,Archimedes, Ctesibius, Hero were...mmmm...freelancers

Also they were keepers of their knowledge and would hold out only to their relatives, the same as a secret society.

Imagine if the Library of Alexandria had survived? We may not be here as things may have went differently. We might be thousands of years more advanced then we are currently.

Originally posted by Dragonlike
People from these days as Daedalus (you forgot the forerunner of planes Marduk :lol

,

nope
I just thought that fictional characters invented by the poet Homer in a parable weren't a valid example

in that case what about "the ugly duckling" the forerunner of Body dysmorphic disorder

I just thought that fictional characters invented by the poet Homer in a parable weren't a valid example

The Trojan War was waged, according to legend, against the city of Troy in Asia Minor, by the armies of the Achaeans (Mycenaean Greeks), after Paris of Troy stole Helen from her husband Menelaus, king of Sparta. The war is among the most important events in Greek mythology and was narrated in many works of Greek literature, of which the two most famous are the Iliad and the Odyssey of Homer.

Now, let me know that you deny the Trojan War event. If you do you deny the existence of Troy and once you deny Troy you deny Homer. God rest Heinrich Schliemann's soul, he found Tory based on scriptures of Homer. Meaning he bears some, if not 100%, validity don't you think...

I am trying to be calm in this... what would made you say credible?
''I am Homer the historian and i record the events of Trojan wars...''? Does this sound good for your ears?

Historical documentation developed gradually.
Homer--->Herodotus--->Thucydides--->Arrian--->...

in that case what about "the ugly duckling" the forerunner of Body dysmorphic disorder

... ...

----------
fixin' quotin'

[edit on 29-3-2007 by Dragonlike]

Hear about the other greats of thier time, but what about the 'HYpocratical' Oath being transformed too the 'Imhotepical' Oath? Hypocrcies (SP?) didn't have anything on the world order that Ihmotep did in the medical professin. They even today use the same method's of brain surgery as a blue print of autopsy and exploratory observations.

the Word Homer translates into Hostage, he was held captive and wrote of those events as a prisoner of war. It was a real event, with real people, although some of the exploits may have been exaggerated to increase the drama, but it did occur.

I am trying to be calm in this... what would made you say credible?

err so youre saying its possible for a man to fly with birds feather stuck to his arms with wax as long as he doesnt fly too close to the sun then ?
are you sure
could you perhaps get some birds feathers stick them to your arms with wax and jump of the roof of your house
let me know how you got on
i'll send a fruit basket to the hospital

err so youre saying its possible for a man to fly with birds feather stuck to his arms with wax as long as he doesnt fly too close to the sun then ?
are you sure
could you perhaps get some birds feathers stick them to your arms with wax and jump of the roof of your house
let me know how you got on
i'll send a fruit basket to the hospital

You can't take an allegory, can't you?

Daedalus was so proud of his achievements that he could not bear the idea of a rival. His sister had placed her son Perdix under his charge to be taught the mechanical arts.

Wiki sourceaedalus

was a most skillful artificer

Allegory is used pretty everywhere even today but it's unconscious humans not to pay attention. For example, when a pilot say ''eagles surrounded our civilian aircraft from both flanks'' he means fighter jets escord the plane and no eagles, of course.

When Daedalus made winds he made some sort of winds based on his knowledge about mechanical engineerings (not machines particularly), but the rest of people (e.g. Homer), simple in speech and manner would explain it as simple as they could. Right? Knowledge was a privilenge that time and only a master used to teach it/transfer it to his lineage only (few are the exceptions)