Reformed no-757 theorists weigh in here

Originally posted by infinityoreilly

So you didn't do the research because maybe you've seen it on one of ingnoranceisn't bliss's sites already? You did leave a post there. It pokes alot of holes in many of the photos used by Pentagon debunkers to proove a 757 hit the building. Including the chunk of fuseloge that appears to have the American Airlines logo on it. Seen in numerous photos from up close to far away, from 5 or 6 different angles, but somehow the part always seems to be facing the same way. Wish you would take a closer look. After all vigilence is part of your signature. Also I never claimed to be an expert, just an observer.

Okay, here's a working link to Jack White's site -
www.911studies.com...
The guy is a little silly IMO – quesioning the moon landing to boot! Where’s the fake Holocaust photo analysis?
Okay since you can’t be bothered to give me a link to THE page in question, let me waste a few minutes doing the “research.”
Some of these photos are new to me, I have to admit, and I will keep the link handy – thanks for that. But what a train wreck! Jack White sees all kinds of neat things, like a painted-out guardrail! What the hell is the point of that? The “:whatsit #1 firetruck thing is pretty damn weird looking –I’d guess its another truck indeed, at some weird angle but it doesn’t really seem to fit… In fact I’d be curious if that’s really in the original.Why don’t you track that down? I’ve spent enough time bringing these, two of the actual pages you may have been referring to:



As for the moving scrap, I'm not sure. Are these angles really so different? They booth look about southeast to me... Anyone else?

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
Duh! Are you serious? The Landing gear (supp, I"m not totally sure) punched the INNER hole, where the shaft was found just inside, and the wheel and tire and some other fuselage out of the A-E Drive. The entry hole is the one cause by le package total.

So what punched the outer hole ???????

[edit on 6-4-2007 by ULTIMA1]

LE - PACKAGE - TOTAL! Don't you sprechen sie Francais? The full plane, with landing gear stowed away inside. What total plane? Well that's the big question, isn't it. A 757 would fit, as I've explained...

Originally posted by Caustic Logic

LE - PACKAGE - TOTAL! Don't you sprechen sie Francais? The full plane, with landing gear stowed away inside. What total plane? Well that's the big question, isn't it. A 757 would fit, as I've explained...

No what punched the outer exit hole if the gear only punched the innner hole.

I'll agree the guys site is a little far out, just wanted your opinion. As far as posting links I'll have to learn to do that real soon. Lator Dude

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

No what punched the outer exit hole if the gear only punched the innner hole.

Ahh, got it... I think. only one exit hole as I see - if we wanna see an inner hole on the inside of the wall and an outer hole on the outside, right on the drive, these holes are separated by about 18" of wall, which is silly to call two holes - I'm not sure what ohther hole you might be talking about - the big hole on the way in, the small one on the way out, and all the damaged office space between has any number of spots that could be called "holes," but no additioal punctured walls I'm aware of... at least not these heavy ring-sparating exterior walls.

If you're thinking of a particular spot, please try to find a photo and I'll have a go at it.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
If you're thinking of a particular spot, please try to find a photo and I'll have a go at it.

I will try to make it simple for you. On the following list what made the exit hole out of wall 6, if the landing gear only made it through the inner walls.

1st wall is the reinforced concrete impact area wall.
2nd wall is exit brick wall for the first ring.
3rd wall is the entry brick wall for the second ring.
4th wall is the exit brick wall for the second ring.
5th wall is the entry brick wall for the 3rd ring.
6th wall is the final exit brick wall.

Really? Six walls and you know what they're made of? Got any photos or just descriptions? Where do these walls come up in the accurate but simplified cross section below?

Which one of us is missing something here?

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
Really? Six walls and you know what they're made of? Got any photos or just descriptions? Where do these walls come up in the accurate but simplified cross section below?

Well lets see, figure in the height of the plane off the ground (since no sign of hitting the ground first) and the height of the plane itself so it punched through 5 rings which equals 6 walls. Oh and do not forget the 13 collums.

i114.photobucket.com...



[edit on 7-4-2007 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Well lets see, figure in the height of the plane off the ground (since no sign of hitting the ground first) and the height of the plane itself so it punched through 5 rings which equals 6 walls. Oh and do not forget the 13 collums.

i114.photobucket.com...

I was gonna say what the hell are you talking about, but I forget how little most people know about this. Height off ground - about one inch for left engine, about five feet for right engine, fuselage also about five fet I'd say - height of the plane - guess you mean 44 feet tailfin to wheels down? THIS DOES NOT MEAN A 44-FOOT HIGH HOLE! Landing gear was not down, totally irrelevant - Tailfin's base probably did the damage on floor two, but the upper parts were probably too weak to make a big hole - the hole you'll be looking for is more horizontally alligned - engine, chassis, engine, not much more than 12-feet vertically - say 15 feet high, plus the few fet off the ground, so maybe 20 feet at highest (tailfin) - compare:


ASCE summation - about correct too - there is no 44-foot high hole and the plane's belly was at almost ground level. Where is the entry hole for floors 3-5? We need these before we can have the six walls punched thru you're trying to see...
That analysis you linked to is flat wrong. The plane pierced three "rings" only, and on only two floors - one and two, both open, roofed over, no ring separation. The fulsealage, engines, and left wingroot entered floor one, much of the tailfin and right wing entered floor two. Floors 3-5 right above impact were untouched, all six walls there unpierced, everything inside unburnt - the whole damaged area of the outer ring collapsed at about 10:00, which some might take as a sign the plane "pierced" all five floors there, but rings C+D remained standing despite extensive 1st floor damage up to the A-E Drive, and the inner rings A+B never collapsed and were never hit or damaged in any way.

Double-check this if you don't want to take my word. Looking at ring walls we have two holes only - one from plane, one from landing gear. A 757 could probably do that. And that's my point.
But thanks for giving me something to argue against. Otherwide it'd be boring here.


[edit on 8-4-2007 by Caustic Logic]

[edit on 8-4-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
I was gonna say what the hell are you talking about, but I forget how little most people know about this. Height off ground - about one inch for left engine, about five feet for right engine, fuselage also about five fet I'd say - height of the plane -
[edit on 8-4-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Please show me the sites where you got the 1 inch for left engine and five feet for right engine.

Also here is diagram of path through the building.
i114.photobucket.com...

Photo with entry hole and exit hole. Black line is entry, white line is exit.
s114.photobucket.com...

Other photos of exit hole
i114.photobucket.com...

i114.photobucket.com...

So i still need an answer, what caused the exit hole if landing gear only casued inner holes and was found inside.


[edit on 8-4-2007 by ULTIMA1]

Please show me the sites where you got the 1 inch for left engine and five feet for right engine.

Okay, here it goes…
1) Various accounts of port-low starboard-high banking maneuver.
2) Alleged right engine damage several feet high and hit this generator:

3)Left engine – this is what “hit the ground,” but only at the vent structure (the little “sand box” in front in that ASCE thing) – the engine is thought to have nicked that low wall (about a foot high), damaged the vents, and took out the entire back wall of it.

Also here is diagram of path through the building.
i114.photobucket.com...

Yes, and that’s damage on the first floor

Photo with entry hole and exit hole. Black line is entry, white line is exit.

Same as above – accurate and first floor only – also in that shot count the windows down from roof to “ground.” On the drive, you see five floors, on the inside of the outer rings note only three visible then “ground” (roof) – and no additional punch-out holes.

Other photos of exit hole

There are some anomalies here – at LetsRoll 911 I recall people there pointing out three punch-outs, for engine, fuselage, engine – two however are just doors that were opened and let out smoke – THE hole is different, in that it looks blown out – but it was a door before – as your last shot showed, no parking sign next to it, which means loading zone.

So i still need an answer, what caused the exit hole if landing gear only casued inner holes and was found inside.

I admit it doesn’t complately add up. The heavy gear was found just inside that neat hole – and I have a hard time visualizing it making that big a hole itself – I suspect something a little odd at work here, perhaps even one of those previous explosions, but I don't know why they would do this, and it does nothing much to eliminate a 757, whose wheel type was found just outside that hole.

One oddity granted unexplained, now just take and leverage that and you should be able to cast doubt on eveything else, right? Maybe we can return to the hidden videos too...

Originally posted by Caustic Logic

I admit it doesn’t complately add up. The heavy gear was found just inside that neat hole – and I have a hard time visualizing it making that big a hole itself – I suspect something a little odd at work here, perhaps even one of those previous explosions, but I don't know why they would do this, and it does nothing much to eliminate a 757, whose wheel type was found just outside that hole.

One oddity granted unexplained, now just take and leverage that and you should be able to cast doubt on eveything else, right? Maybe we can return to the hidden videos too...

When your trying to proof a point then say "it doesn't completely add up" you mess up your own theory. What is a 757 height with gear up from bottom of engine to tip of tailfin?

I'll guess 40ft.

Pics show hole thru fence by generator but little airliner debrie can you explain?

[edit on 4/8/2007 by infinityoreilly]

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
I suspect something a little odd at work here, perhaps even one of those previous explosions, but I don't know why they would do this, and it does nothing much to eliminate a 757, whose wheel type was found just outside that hole.

The only photo we have is a main gear inside the building no nose gear outside, And with the gear being up inside the plane how would the nose gear get that far away from the body of the plane ? The landing gear doors are kevlar and would have protected the gear.

Its just too bad that you have no FBI or NTSB reports to support your theory with part numbers matching the parts found to a 757 let alone flight 77.

Originally posted by infinityoreilly

When your trying to proof a point then say "it doesn't completely add up" you mess up your own theory.

I don't have a theory for that hole - that's why it's an oddity. There's something I don't know that's keeping it from making sense. Everything else adds up, and this comes nowhere near unraveling my overall case.

What is a 757 height with gear up from bottom of engine to tip of tailfin?
I'll guess 40ft.

I hear 44. This is how relevant to what? Most of that is weak tailfin and retracted landing gear, which played next-to-no-role and no role in the plane's impact. From bottom of engines to top of fuselage: I dunno, about 16 feet.

Pics show hole thru fence by generator but little airliner debrie can you explain?

Yup. The engine tore the hole and smashed the generator and then flew into the building. Taa-daaa!

My biggest problem is where it went through 3 walls of steel-reinforced concrete, in addition to all those supporting columns, each serving to absorb energy from the impact.

Example: if I throw a car at a wall, it might go through it, but if I throw the hood, the doors, the windshield, the engine block, the body shell etc.. at it separately, they bounce off.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic

I hear 44. This is how relevant to what? Most of that is weak tailfin and retracted landing gear, which played next-to-no-role and no role in the plane's impact. From bottom of engines to top of fuselage: I dunno, about 16 feet.

Why do you think the tailfin is weak? Planes hitting WTC buildings clearly show tailfin damage.

Originally posted by infinityoreilly
Why do you think the tailfin is weak? Planes hitting WTC buildings clearly show tailfin damage.

Because those were 767’s first off which are substantially heavier aircraft as they are wide bodies, and the WTC is made of a much weaker material the Pentagon.

[edit on 4/9/2007 by defcon5]

Originally posted by mirageofdeceit
My biggest problem is where it went through 3 walls of steel-reinforced concrete, in addition to all those supporting columns, each serving to absorb energy from the impact.

Example: if I throw a car at a wall, it might go through it, but if I throw the hood, the doors, the windshield, the engine block, the body shell etc.. at it separately, they bounce off.

True enough, except that most of the plane only passed thru the one reinforced wall - after that it didn't need much integrity - many pieces with a general but decreasing momentum could just "flow" into the building like a sandstorm or avalanche - parts could make it through weaaker wlls, around columns, and in until they stopped. Again, there were no mutiple wall-piercings - just the big entry hole and the small "landing gear" exit hole.

Hmmmm........ I was under the impression the outer ring walls were all reinforced?

I don't claim to know the whole scoop on what walls were reinforced, but both the outer wall of E Ring and inner of C Ring - on the A-E Drive, could be reinforced "to withstand truck bombs" or whatever. It's just all this talk of "rings" leads people to misread the building's layout.

Without even pictures or video links, try to visualize this - and then go look it up with Google image searches - it's fundamental to understanding the evidence - The ring divisions only play into floors 3-5 - looking at the building from above and counting in we'd see
lawn
5th floor roof (E)
2nd floor roof
5th floor roof (D)
2nd floor roof
5th floor roof (C)
ground-level A-E Drive
5th floor roof (B)
2nd floor roof
5th floor roof (A)
inner courtyard.

floors one and two are roofed over for the span of the outer three rings, and NOT DIVIDED by ring walls like the one we've seen pierced outside. There are support columns and weak inner walls and file cabinets, etc in there. Clear sailing. The plane entered only on the first and second floors, which is why the plane not only passed through three rings, it did so without leaving any damage visible from above between the punch-in and punch-out holes.