omnipotence AND omniscience, the paradox

let us say that god is all knowing and all powerful.

if god is all powerful, god can interfere in world events in the future
if god is all knowing, god already knows how god will intervene in future world events

therefore, god cannot change god's mind without losing omniscience
but if god cannot chage god's mind, god loses omnipotence

so, how can god exist with this obvious paradox as an inherent part of god's existence?

Yes, God knows all that is possible.

there is no such thing as past or future for God, all things are happening for him all at once, he is outside the concept of "past" and "future," he is outside time.

Yes, I know it is difficult for our puny minds to understand this.

Trust me, don't think about concepts like this too hard, you'll lose your mind.


[edit on 17-3-2007 by thehumbleone]

Originally posted by kinglizard
Yes, God knows all that is possible.

bad mod, no 1 line responses.

but that doesn't answer the paradox. god cannot both be omniscient and omnipotent, i've displayed it and you haven't explained why it isn't a paradox.

humble did give me a cop out, but that doesn't count

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

humble did give me a cop out, but that doesn't count

I don't see how it is a cop out if you are trying to explain a concept (God) that is above the limits of the regular world.

That's what the concept of God is, he transcends everything known to us, he is above us, so there is no point trying to explain him in naturalistic terms.

If we did, then he wouldn't be God.

How do you explain a transcendent concept in naturalistic thoughts or terms?



[edit on 17-3-2007 by thehumbleone]

Sorry humble, but that was the standard religious cop out to having to actually think about their unsupported belief.

"It is so complex that we puny humans can't understand!!! Such is the nature of God!"

Luckily not everyone things this way, otherwise we'd never have gotten past the dark ages.

Yes it is a paradox if we understand God in the way that western religion defines it, and all the more unlikely that either aspect is true.

Read my last post.

I read it. You just use big words to say.

"It is so complex that we puny humans can't understand!!! Such is the nature of God!"

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
I read it. You just use big words to say.

"It is so complex that we puny humans can't understand!!! Such is the nature of God!"

I think maybe you're just a little slow to understand.

GOD is a concept that transcends nature, how are you going to explain it in naturalistic thoughts, meaning, explaining it by the laws we live by?

You can't do it if he transcends it, right?

Get it now?

[edit on 17-3-2007 by thehumbleone]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
bad mod, no 1 line responses.

That is not a one liner...a one liner is something off topic that adds noting to a discussion like a row of smileys.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
but that doesn't answer the paradox. god cannot both be omniscient and omnipotent, i've displayed it and you haven't explained why it isn't a paradox.

humble did give me a cop out, but that doesn't count

For someone who doesn't believe in God you are certainly all consumed by him. Heck you may be more Christian than most considering all the time you think about him. Maybe he's trying to tell you something.

I find these hypothetical scenarios completely useless and a total waste of energy. Can God create a hamburger so big even he can't lift it? Can God ask himself a question so difficult even he can't answer? What's the point...to try and disprove God or our beliefs. If I can't answer does that mean that God doesn't exist or that he isn't all powerful and know all that's POSSIBLE?

We don't/can't know everything, we just follow God, his son and his record.

If I could satisfactorily answer your hypothetical scenario would you accept Jesus as your personal savior?

Anyway just to lay it all on the table, there is an endless list of questions we can't answer about God, if you would like to view this as a cop-out so be it....truly it's OK.



[edit on 3/17/2007 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
let us say that god is all knowing and all powerful.

if god is all powerful, god can interfere in world events in the future
if god is all knowing, god already knows how god will intervene in future world events

therefore, god cannot change god's mind without losing omniscience
but if god cannot chage god's mind, god loses omnipotence

so, how can god exist with this obvious paradox as an inherent part of god's existence?

God's Omniscience is just an expression of His Omnipotence. God can change His Mind, a capability further proving His Omnipotence AND Omniscience. God loses no Omniscience when He changes His Mind. In fact, His ability to change His Mind partly exemplifies His Omniscience.

If humans can change their mind and retain their level of knowledge, do you not think God can?

Originally posted by kinglizard
For someone who doesn't believe in God you are certainly all consumed by him. Heck you may be more Christian than most considering all the time you think about him. Maybe he's trying to tell you something.

no, i was just reading the god delusion and dawkin's brought up the point that omnipotence and omniscience aren't compatable. i thought about it for about half an hour and decided to start a thread.

I find these hypothetical scenarios completely useless and a total waste of energy. Can God create a hamburger so big even he can't lift it? Can God ask himself a question so difficult even he can't answer? What's the point...to try and disprove God or our beliefs. If I can't answer does that mean that God doesn't exist or that he isn't all powerful and know all that's POSSIBLE?

well, the intended point is to point out that from a logical standpoint a being both omnipotent and omniscient is ridiculous

We don't/can't know everything, we just follow God, his son and his record.

If I could satisfactorily answer your hypothetical scenario would you accept Jesus as your personal savior?

well, i wouldn't necessarly accept one religion. i could very well accept islam or judaism, as they both have omnipotent and omniscient deities.

i would admit that i was wrong in saying it was a paradox.

Anyway just to lay it all on the table, there is an endless list of questions we can't answer about God, if you would like to view this as a cop-out so be it....truly it's OK.

and that's the problem with the religious mindset, that there are answers that we CAN'T answer. looking for answers to unanswerable questions has led humanity to greatness.

we couldn't have known how the sun revolved around the earth.. well, we found out that it didn't and how we in fact revolved around it.

Originally posted by GreatTech
God's Omniscience is just an expression of His Omnipotence. God can change His Mind, a capability further proving His Omnipotence AND Omniscience. God loses no Omniscience when He changes His Mind. In fact, His ability to change His Mind partly exemplifies His Omniscience.

If humans can change their mind and retain their level of knowledge, do you not think God can?

if god were to change his mind on an action, he would have had no earlier knowledge of the changing of his mind, thus rendering him non-omniscient.

i'm basically stating that the only being that can be omniscient cannot be omnipotent.
actually, it couldn't be potent at all unless it was purely benign

no, i was just reading the god delusion and dawkin's brought up the point that omnipotence and omniscience aren't compatable. i thought about it for about half an hour and decided to start a thread.

You know, I hardly ever hear about Theists thinking about the delusion that there isn't a God. Being an Atheist, why does it even concern you? Like kinglizard said, there are countless questions you could ask about God, but will you be ever be satisfied with the answers you receive?

well, the intended point is to point out that from a logical standpoint a being both omnipotent and omniscient is ridiculous

Are you saying that a religious standpoint is illogical?

Originally posted by Paresthesia
You know, I hardly ever hear about Theists thinking about the delusion that there isn't a God. Being an Atheist, why does it even concern you? Like kinglizard said, there are countless questions you could ask about God, but will you be ever be satisfied with the answers you receive?

you're right, they are less polite than that. they tend to call us horrible human beings (using much stronger words, of course) instead of such.

delusions are things that stand up in the face of contradictory evidence or in the face of a lack of evidence, and i have yet to see any evidence to show me that there is a deity, there is no way i am delusional by any definition of the word

Are you saying that a religious standpoint is illogical?

yes.
no witty comeback here, i'm saying that religion is without logic. it's that simple

I believe thehumbleone had it right, you just didn't seem to understand what he was saying.

When we say that God is all knowing and all powerful, we are speaking within the realm of our physical universe. God exists outside of our universe and the laws of that universe. So first off, subjecting God to the concept of time in the way we think of it is probably ludicrous at best. The fact that God exists outside of our dimension of time is the very reason he is able to be all knowing without imposing on our free will. It is also how is able to change anything within our universe, like a programmer using a computer (for lack of a better analogy).

Now if you were to ask me if God was all knowing and all powerful within his own realm of existence, I couldn't really say, but I would say it's possible that no he is not. If he was, I would imagine Satan never would have had a chance to try and overthrow God in the first place, since he would have already known about it. So following this concept, his omniscient and omnipotent nature is preserved in the context of our universe.

With all that said, I am of course in no position to claim that this is the true nature of God, but it is a logical possibility that erases the paradox you have presented.

Somedude, I agree with what you said.

IMO, I believe God is omniscient and omnipotent even in his own realm of existence.

[edit on 17-3-2007 by thehumbleone]

you're right, they are less polite than that. they tend to call us horrible human beings (using much stronger words, of course) instead of such.

They, they, they.

First of all, don't generalize an entire religion and its people. You're right, there are some people who'll say that anyone who doesn't believe what they believe are horrible human beings, but those people are on the extremes. And extremes are never good no matter what.

I know lots of Christians that don't think I'm a horrible human being (as well as Christians that do). In fact, most of my friends are Christian, and I know they love me.

yes.
no witty comeback here, i'm saying that religion is without logic. it's that simple

My art teacher who happens to be my number one hero is a devoted, devout Christian. She says grace at every meal and attends Church every Sunday and loves her saviour. Without His guidance, she probably would not be near where she is right now. She teaches at a Christian Art School and also sells her artwork (which is STUNNING). Her paintings of Jesus (and other biblical characters) have been made into postcards that are now being sold in Christian stores.

My point? She's outstanding in what she does and she has boundless knowledge about anything and everything. I'm sure if I told her I didn't believe in God, she'd know where I was coming from and not be upset about it at all.

And she doesn't hesitate to share her views (which are from an "illogical standpoint") on politics, the paranormal, stupid things like scientology and Christians overreacting about Halloween. I can hardly say she's illogical in a single aspect!

Why do you feel so compelled to prove them wrong? Would you be satisified if you made someone lose their faith?

Why do you feel so compelled to prove them wrong? Would you be satisified if you made someone lose their faith?

Trust me Paresthesia, I've been wondering the same thing for a long time. :shk:

Good post though.

[edit on 17-3-2007 by thehumbleone]

Madnessinmysoul, these stupid paradoxes such as "Can God create a rock so big that He cannot lift it?" are pointless and illogical. Besides, they certainly do not disprove the existence of God.

For example, I have a paradox for you. Can you eat your own face? Can you literally reverse your mouth around and consume your entire head? No. Humans cannot do it. And for all I know, humans have never tried it. There was never a need to try it, the same way that God never had a need to try and create a gigantic rock. But, since humans cannot eat their own faces, does that mean they can't exist? Of course not. Same with your little paradox of God.

Yes, I also find it a bit off center that atheists and agnostics seem to spend more time occupied with thoughts on God than believers themselves, but I also think I understand where people like madness are coming from, mainly from my own experiences. To spend so much time trying to find answers, hoping that something will come of it, only to come up empty and have your beliefs decay and slip away from you... It's not an easy thing to go through. It hasn't been easy for me. For someone who has spent so much time and headache thinking about these kinds of questions, only to have others dismiss them and have a seemingly effortless time believing is very frustrating. I know I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here, but I think there is a large percentage of believers who just don't understand what others have been through in their faith, and vice-versa for non-believers. I mean sure, there are those who are just spiteful and feel like they have to put down anything that they don't agree with, but maybe a little mutual understanding could go a long way with issues like these. They can be very sensitive, and a lot of times for both sides.

madness - I could be totally wrong about this, but I was just trying to relate with my own experience.