The only remedy which remains to stop a war of aggression against Iran

Originally posted by darkbluesky

Originally posted by Agit8dChop

Darkbluesky, do you support strikes against Iran?

No.
Sorry for the one liner.

Do you believe invading Iraq was the 'needed' thing or the 'right' thing?

Originally posted by Starvald
"US Army Soldiers and Marines patrol daily to keep the militias from killing each other and abducting or terrorizing citizens of the wrong religious and/or politcal persuasion"

LOL, no they dont, they patrol daily to stop insurgents bombing forward bases and taking pot shots at their troops.

Let me be sure I've got this right....They go out on patrol to stop insurgents from taking pot shots at them while they're......out on patrol???? Still waiting for your evidence of the daily slaughter......

I have a vague idea of how a republic works but ill admit i dont know much behind the actualy process of that. Can you explain to me how Congress would go about creating a legislation, how it is representative of the people in your nation and how they pass it please.

Sorry, I dont have the time. Read up on it:

US House of Representatives
US Senate

So basicaly you cant, dont worry i doubt many actually can outside of the House itself. Anyway my point was you beleive that because the democrats cannot pass something such as that then it is obviously representative of the will of the people. But im a affraid it just doesnt work like that.

.....my evidence of daily slaughter?

Originally posted by Starvald
"what ever it is people get labeled these days for speakin ill of the president and his war... "

I think the term you are infact looking for is Liberal Pot Smoking Islamo Communist Nazi Facist.

If we can drop the last three I might be in...
The first two I'll sign the charter!

L.P.S. Party in '08

(John Lear if you believe in decriminalization I'll nominate you as our presidental nominee!)

ahhh what the hell


John Lear in 08!!!!!

They haven't let a lot of the evidence of senseless killing out.....

What do you think that would do for the already plummeting support for this sham?

The learned their lessons the first time when those prison abuse shots came out....

I guess I (or you, for that matter) need to stop being lazy and go find the numbers you are asking for....Since, obviously, torturing and shaming PROVEN innocent people in a concentration camp is not enough evidence for you to know that our military lets in some of the lowest forms of life on this planet........

If being a soldier in this war is so honorable, then why don't you go enlist?

It's easy to pick a side from the comfort of your everyday social status, isn't it?

I base my opinions on research..not the lies spoonfed to me.....

EDIT:

To get this thread back on topic (my apologies for my sidetracking), my contribution to this thread is that we are pretty much screwed. Bush has already stated that any opposition to the Iraq war passed through Congress will be vetoed. What do you think will happen when he decides to strike Iran? We are in a dictatorship. The only solution is a revolution. The problem is, there are still too many people out there that believe what they are being told. Of the people that see through the lies, too few people are willing to do anything about it. The ones in control of this contry, no matter what party they are from, take too much comfort in knowing that no matter how screwed up they get this country, they will still get a big fat paycheck, trips in private jets, freedom to do and say anything, and go anywhere they please.

So, in closing, our willingness to stand by and watch until it's in our own backyard is pretty much going to be the end of America's reign as a superpower. Oh well, I enjoyed it while it lasted.....

[edit on 15-3-2007 by Azazelus]

Originally posted by darkbluesky

If a majority controlled Dem Congress cant pass legislation to get US forces out of Iraq, it tells me a majority of registered voters are against the idea.

Fixed spelling errors, just bugs me not to offend you .

I don't think it works this way.

Congressmen and women do vote TYPICALLY for business interests that their base supports them.

For example, a lot of them are lobbied by big business to support such and such companies (oil, pharms, food, etc) and will do whatever necessary to support their moneyed supporters.

IMHO they do not care about what the average joe thinks. They are not the ones donating millions of dollars to campaigns. It is the big business owners, corporations who can afford the donations and these guys are lining congress people's pockets in exchange for votes.

Its the cruel hard facts of lobbying.

Legal bribery, what a crock. See CUNNINGHAM, California (he just went to jail for much shorter than petty thieves get even though he did a more damage, in my opinion).

bs

[edit on 15-3-2007 by biggie smalls]

as an American I know that we are Governed by the Golden rule...............


He who has the Most Gold.....Makes the Most rules, it's a simple as that
as it is with ALL other countries

if you think otherwise, you must be very young

Originally posted by Starvald
So basicaly you cant,

Actually, I can. Here is the "Cliff Notes" summary:


A legislator finds an issue with some degree of importance (social, financial, criminal, security, etc.) Tells his staff to draft a bill. Appropriate committees have a cursory review and add comments, check it for compliance with existing statutes and precedent. If the legislator is in the party in power he/she easily gets the bill scheduled for a floor vote. If he she is in the wrong party, or has pissed off the House Speaker, or any committee chairmen, the bill may never see the light of day.

If brought for a vote, each rep. will vote yeah or nay based "theoretically" on his/her responsibility and duty to his/her constituents and the nation. In actuality he/she will vote the way that will do the least damage to his/her approval rating. It all goes back to votes. Big money is important, but only in terms of advertising and support to turn out the votes of the average voting slobs.

If the bill passes the house it goes to the Senate (or to the House if the bill originated in the senate). If the senate cannot pass the bill, the two houses go into "conference" where they try to modify the bill in such a way that both houses will pass it.

If a bill passes the senate with a super majority (67 votes) its veto proof.

Make no mistake - Conress men and women almost always vote with there inside polling numbers, even when they say they are voting on thier conscience.

So you see Starvald, I do understand, and can explain the legislative process in my own country. So if anyone wants to cast a WATS vote for this post......I graciously accept.

Anyway my point was you beleive that because the democrats cannot pass something such as that then it is obviously representative of the will of the people. But im a affraid it just doesnt work like that.

I respectfully disagree.




[edit on 3/16/2007 by darkbluesky]

[edit on 3/16/2007 by darkbluesky]

Originally posted by Starvald
.....my evidence of daily slaughter?

Sorry, confused you with another poster.

Originally posted by biggie smalls
For example, a lot of them are lobbied by big business to support such and such companies (oil, pharms, food, etc) and will do whatever necessary to support their moneyed supporters.

Right, to get the money, which is the lifeblood of campaigning and winning re-election.

IMHO they do not care about what the average joe thinks. They are not the ones donating millions of dollars to campaigns. It is the big business owners, corporations who can afford the donations and these guys are lining congress people's pockets in exchange for votes.

At the end of the day its THE VOTES that matter, unless the politician is not seeking re-election, then as I said earlier, voting reverts to personal wealth and power gain by the politician. This is when he/she says damn the constituents, whatever big (name the interest) wants.

Originally posted by Azazelus
They haven't let a lot of the evidence of senseless killing out.....

Who is "they"?

I guess I (or you, for that matter) need to stop being lazy and go find the numbers you are asking for....Since, obviously, torturing and shaming PROVEN innocent people in a concentration camp is not enough evidence for you to know that our military lets in some of the lowest forms of life on this planet........

Yes...YOU need to go get the facts to support YOUR claims, that's the way it typically works.

If being a soldier in this war is so honorable, then why don't you go enlist?

I have deleted my initial response to this idiotic question. Suffice it to say.... I've done my part.

It's easy to pick a side from the comfort of your everyday social status, isn't it?

You seem to have picked a side as well, no?

I base my opinions on research..not the lies spoonfed to me.....

Research that you're not willing to share with us apparently..unless you mean the "research" that consists of regurgitating abu grahb and Gitmo stories you saw on the Cartoon News network.

We are in a dictatorship.

Thats a huge insult to every true dictator that ever carried out a pogrom, or a good 'ole ethnic cleansing, or stripped his people of their rights to speech, rights to travel, rights to worship the God of their choice...

The only solution is a revolution.

Lead the way.

So, in closing, our willingness to stand by and watch until it's in our own backyard is pretty much going to be the end of America's reign as a superpower. Oh well, I enjoyed it while it lasted.....

[edit on 15-3-2007 by Azazelus]

I'm sure you did, probably while contributing nothing except a a bunch of malcontent lip service.

but how can you say current legislation is reprasentative of the people when the majority of legislation that is introduced is written specificaly by lobbyists?

But heres the thing i dont get, whats the difference in introducing a bill or legislation to congress or the senate? is it the same process?

Originally posted by Starvald
but how can you say current legislation is reprasentative of the people when the majority of legislation that is introduced is written specificaly by lobbyists?

As I already said, whatever the issue at hand, if the congressman votes against the will of a majority of his constituents too many times or on important issues, he will not be around after the next election. This is a great motivator to enact the will of the constiuency.

It matters not who wrote the bills, the congressman still has the freedom to vote yes or no.

But heres the thing i dont get, whats the difference in introducing a bill or legislation to congress or the senate? is it the same process?

I understand the general process, I'd only be speculating on details like this. I do know that legislation does originate from both houses.

I have a vague idea of how a republic works but ill admit i dont know much behind the actualy process of that. Can you explain to me how Congress would go about creating a legislation, how it is representative of the people in your nation and how they pass it please.

[edit on 3/16/2007 by bokinsmowl]

Bokinsmowl!

Excellent!!! I thought of that oldie, but doubted I could find it, so didn't even look. I can still hear my kids singing that song when they were knee high to a grasshopper.

Great nostalgia, Thanks.

Originally posted by darkbluesky

Who is "they"?

Hmmm, lets see....Those in charge of running this country maybe?

Yes...YOU need to go get the facts to support YOUR claims, that's the way it typically works.

You asked for evidence, so I asked you to provide your own that American troops are doing the right things over there...

I have deleted my initial response to this idiotic question. Suffice it to say.... I've done my part.

Good for you. It's sad when you let anger talk. You end up making yourself look like you can't debate a topic.

As far as doing your part...Are you stating that you have seen active duty in Iraq, served the people of Iraq, and fought FOR the people of Iraq....Since, this was supposedly to aid the people of Iraq....

You seem to have picked a side as well, no?

We all have. I wasn't directing that comment solely to you. Let me point out, that I never mentioned your name even ONCE in my post. You took offense....

Research that you're not willing to share with us apparently..unless you mean the "research" that consists of regurgitating abu grahb and Gitmo stories you saw on the Cartoon News network.

Not willing to share? It's out there for you to see every day....

As far as the prison abuse...Yeah, let's just disregard that, it's not important, or a valid argument of my postion.... (end sarcasm)

Congratulations though, you have fallen for the trickery...."Pay no attention to the new Holocaust" ..."We got Saddam!"....."Forget about Osama"..."Here's Khalid!"...."Exxon boasts it's highest profits ever, but hey, we still need high gas prices!"...

Thats a huge insult to every true dictator that ever carried out a pogrom, or a good 'ole ethnic cleansing, or stripped his people of their rights to speech, rights to travel, rights to worship the God of their choice...

You do realize the hilarity of that statement, don't you? Hmmm.. Christian president/Christian agenda....Muslim=bad......Those who will not follow=terrorists....The Patriot act....mail opening....etc., etc., etc.....

Lead the way.

Why should I have to? This is America....this stuff shouldn't even be happening...

I'm sure you did, probably while contributing nothing except a a bunch of malcontent lip service.

What are you doing? Getting angry at all of us simply because we do not support your opinions? Heh....

I enjoyed your flame post though. It added a lot to the topic of Iran....

So.....

War with Iran is pretty much on its way. Regardless of what the American public wants.....

HAAAAHAHAHAHAAHAH classic, back in the day when the simpsons was funny.

But Darkbluesky how can you actually check what they vote on?, do you know the voting records of your congressman and senators? is that even publishd? i just think it would be interesting to know just to get a general idea of how much they vote in line with the people, cause they sure as # never do that here. Our constituency MP's change every single time, meaning that those who actually seek reelection are few and far between and because of that the people never really get represented.

Also you gotta admit, given the fact the for many relection isnt much of an issue and given the fact they can make a great deal of wealth and power for six years, the system is obviously hampered severly and not with the peoples interests in mind, so to an extent it may not always be representative of the peoples will.

how can you actually check what they vote on?, do you know the voting records of your congressman and senators? is that even publishd?

votesmart.org...

give that link a try. locate your representative via. zip code or last name and then under their biography (on the right side under their picture) you can click "voting record". you can even search their voting record by issue. if you then click on the bill title you can get even more information about the specific bill.

[edit on 3/16/2007 by bokinsmowl]

Originally posted by Starvald
HAAAAHAHAHAHAAHAH classic, back in the day when the simpsons was funny.

Actually, that classic goes back to about 1972-73.

But Darkbluesky how can you actually check what they vote on?, do you know the voting records of your congressman and senators? is that even publishd?

I'm begining to think you're pulling my leg. Of course it's available as public information to anyone, in any country, anywhere in the world.

clerk.house.gov...

You can find the same information for the Senate as well.

Also you gotta admit, given the fact the for many relection isnt much of an issue and given the fact they can make a great deal of wealth and power for six years, the system is obviously hampered severly and not with the peoples interests in mind, so to an extent it may not always be representative of the peoples will.

This is your belief, it differs with mine. I respect your right to hold your own views and beliefs.

So your beleife is that the way the system of congress and the senate is set up, it is set up to maximise the will of the people and not the will of private interests such as corporations?

Cause from what i can tell the people dont really seem to get represented all to often.

"I'm begining to think you're pulling my leg"

half an half.

[edit on 16-3-2007 by Starvald]