Stanley Milgram: The Milgram Experiment

This is the second study that I will be authoring today, and I feel that this subject is very applicable to the current state of our society. I believe as a society we truly lack accountability, especially with our youth. We are always so quick to point fingers and pass the blame onto someone else, rarely do we see people stand up and take the blame.

Well Stanley Milgram's study takes a good long hard look at this concept, and I feel this one too is quite ground breaking.

The Milgram Experiment

The Milgram experiment was a seminal series of social psychology experiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram, which measured the willingness of study participants to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts that conflicted with their personal conscience. Milgram first described his research in 1963 in an article published in the Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology,[1] and later discussed his findings in greater depth in his 1974 book, Obedience to Authority: An Experimental View.[2]

The experiments began in July 1961, three months after the start of the trial of Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem. Milgram devised the experiments to answer this question: "Could it be that Eichmann and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could we call them all accomplices?"[3]

The Milgram Experiment

I am not going to copy and paste the whole article here, but I highly recommend you spend a minute or two reading it to really understand it. The concept the of experiment was quite simple, but very efficient.

How It Worked

The role of the experimenter was played by a stern, impassive biology teacher dressed in a technician's coat, and the victim was played by an Irish-American accountant trained to act for the role. The participant and a confederate of the experimenter were told by the experimenter that they would be participating in an experiment to test the effects of punishment on learning. A slip of paper was then given to the participant and another to the confederate. The participant was led to believe that one of the slips said "learner" and the other said "teacher," and that the participants had been given the slips randomly. In fact, both slips said "teacher," but the actor claimed to have the slip that read "learner," thus guaranteeing that the participant was always the "teacher." At this point, the "teacher" and "learner" were separated into different rooms where they could communicate but not see each other. In one version of the experiment, the confederate was sure to mention to the participant that he had a heart condition.

The "teacher" was given a 45-volt electric shock from the electro-shock generator as a sample of the shock that the "learner" would supposedly receive during the experiment. The "teacher" was then given a list of word pairs which he was to teach the learner. The teacher began by reading the list of word pairs to the learner. The teacher would then read the first word of each pair and read four possible answers. The learner would press a button to indicate his response. If the answer was incorrect, the learner would receive a shock, with the voltage increasing with each wrong answer. If correct, the teacher would read the next word pair. The subjects believed that for each wrong answer, the learner was receiving actual shocks. In reality, there were no shocks. After the confederate was separated from the subject, the confederate set up a tape recorder integrated with the electro-shock generator, which played pre-recorded sounds for each shock level. After a number of voltage level increases, the actor started to bang on the wall that separated him from the subject. After several times banging on the wall and complaining about his heart condition, the learner gave no further responses to questions and no further complaints.

At this point, many people indicated their desire to stop the experiment and check on the learner. Some test subjects paused at 135 volts and began to question the purpose of the experiment. Most continued after being assured that they would not be held responsible. A few subjects began to laugh nervously or exhibit other signs of extreme stress once they heard the screams of pain coming from the learner.

This is definitely the case for our society today, in my opinion. Here we had an individual who was, or so he thought, inflicting some serious harm onto another individual. And they continued to do so because they were not accountable for it. The hell with what this guy is going through, it isn't my problem. ...I was told too! That doesn't cut it. Nobody can make you do anything. We have choices in life, and it is time that we begin to take account for the choices we make. Considering this experiment was based on the Nazi Trials, and whether or not they were accountable, I found it quite interesting.

Does anyone else have a problem with this?

Is it a problem that individuals were ready and willing to harm someone else, if they were not to blame? Human decency anyone? Or maybe because this man was "stern", they felt pressured into hurting someone else. Personally, I don't buy it. Rather than show some backbone, we are ready and willing to abide by these expectations.

Peer pressure, group dynamics, blah. Grant it we may feel pressure it certain situations, I think it is time our society takes a look at this and begins to understand that each individual is responsible for their own actions. I find a contradiction in my own thought process, as I tend to view criminals leniently too often. Abuse begets abuse, sexual predators may have been abused themselves, etc., are all ways I try to understand the cognitive process of a criminal. But ultimately, I am beginning to believe that we all make a decision.

The (S) Shockers in this experiment made a decision on their own accord. It was their choice to press that button and inflict harm onto another person.

All of the peer pressure and group dynamics in the world are not going to excuse that.

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This is the second of the two Experiments that I am turning to our membership for thoughts and opinions. In two weeks time I will be doing some seminars on these concepts, and I am relying heavily on theese experiments. I am very interested in hearing what our members have to say.

Be sure to check out the first of the two experiments here:

Philip Zimbardo: Standford Prison Experiment



[edit on 15-3-2007 by chissler]

I think that they are relavent to our time period. I think the Stafford prison experiement shows or could be used to show how quickly people change and how they react in some situations.

That can show how people change on both sides of the wall.

I also like this experiment. It was an experiment to help understand if the German people were monsters or if authority figures could have an impact on getting people to do horrific things.

I think the outcomes were amazing to see.

Another experiment you might want to check out was the third wave.
It was more sper of the moment, but I think it's equally relavant to our time.

I also hold people responsible for their actions. We all make choices and the excuse of someone was telling me to do it does not wash, some people stopped the shocking, and some continued to the end, even when the person was screaming they might have a heart attack.


Here is a link to the third wave.
www.vaniercollege.qc.ca...

I appreciate the link. This is the first I've heard of it, but I will certainly have a look.

What amazes me is how this experiment, and others like it, are capable of transcending time. Even though forty years has passed this the Milgram Experiment has been done, it's content is still applicable today. Individuals do not hold themselves accountable for their actions. In this case, we had an individual torturing another human being. Case in point, the Nazi's. Yet we attempt to excuse our own behaviour, and the behaviour of others, due to the fact that we were "following orders", or abiding to "peer pressure".

Maybe someone who is more Military savvy can answer this, but if a solder receives an order that is immoral or wrong, and then acts on those orders, is he or she still accountable? Saying the commanding officer gave an order is not a validated excuse is it? I personally don't think it should be, which is hand in hand with the experiment.

What amazes me is how this experiment, and others like it, are capable of transcending time.

It would appear that human are ever unchanging. This happened in the lab, but the real life versions of this are just so hard to grasp. It's hard to believe that people just go along with this stuff, unquestioningly and unchallenged.

I guess had I not seen it live, it would have been hard for me to truly believe it. Even with being aware of these experiments, it can not prepare you for a real life version.

Individuals do not hold themselves accountable for their actions. In this case, we had an individual torturing another human being. Case in point, the Nazi's. Yet we attempt to excuse our own behaviour, and the behaviour of others, due to the fact that we were "following orders", or abiding to "peer pressure".

These are experiments are not only timeless, but I think they would cross other barriers as well and I think that is good. It's something about human nature that allows us to do this. Follow along with the crowd, even when we think that things are not right or acceptable.

I think this happens even more when people can wash their hands and say I was just following orders, the responsibility can just be fobbed off on someone else, be it the state or other.

The other thing with these experiments is that the changes happened in days or minutes. That just shows how quickly this kind of madness can sweep in.

Nice post, chissler. I wonder about the military as well.

As in, if military were to hold themselves to this standard, and were to act on their own best judgement, then why, when it was determined that Iraq was not posing anywhere near the threat they claimed, did not the military then refuse to continue killing people in cold blood and exit Iraq?

Probably for the same reasons the IRS continues to ruin people's lives over debateably illegal federal income taxes. Because they can and are not accountable. Accountability may ultimately come from within, but absolute power corrupts absolutely. What's another life, or another 100,000 in the grand scheme of things? To the unaccountable, just worthless pieces of meat.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Probably for the same reasons the IRS continues to ruin people's lives over debateably illegal federal income taxes. Because they can and are not accountable.

Exactly. Very interesting concept as well. To dumb it down some, Why does a dog lick his gear? Because he can! When the individual is not held accountable for his or her own actions, the ability and willingness to "free wheel" is ever so tempting.

Like the person who shocked the actor in this experiment. Why? Because he could!

Originally posted by chissler
Like the person who shocked the actor in this experiment. Why? Because he could!

Wierd how it comes down to if you had the chance to inflict harm on someone, knowing you were protected from any kind of physical retribution, would you do it? Without any real prior motive, just because you could, and you never knew the person?

That to me is almost a defining border line between good and evil, in the testing of any soul for raw benevolence or raw malice.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
That to me is almost a defining border line between good and evil, in the testing of any soul for raw benevolence or raw malice.

Is it though? When we look at Nazi Germany, and the shear ignorance of the German people, not to mention the Nazi puppets, are we to believe that they are all evil people? The teachers, doctors, lawyers, etc., are all evil? Well, maybe the latter. But facts indicate that power turned good people into bad people. For me, the line between good and evil, well it is slightly thicker than this issue. Good people do bad things every day. Bad people do good things every day. Not every good person does something bad everyday, but somewhere out there, some anti-social behaviour can be uncovered.

Whether we want to call it group dynamics, peer pressure, or any other scapegoat, blanket term to cover our own ass, I don't know. I don't think this alone indicates any level of evil, but it certainly speaks volume of our character.

Now if you were to do harm onto someone else, the shocker in this experiment, or the Nazis, and actually enjoy it, that would be evil. To get a rise out of the suffering of others, that is a determining factor in good and evil. Not the only one, but one nonetheless.

I like to believe that I am a good person, and I think that many other members along side me are good people too. But I am also quite sure that most of us are guilty of some form of anti-social behaviour, where we most definitely, directly or indirectly, caused another individual grief. Does this make us evil? No. It means we made a mistake.

To speak specifically of this experiment for a moment, I am still grasping at straws to understand exactly where I stand.

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I've said above that I am putting on a workshop in two weeks for "high risk youth" for a full day. I am going to present some of these ideas to them and see what they think. I may try to concoct some scheme where I can put this experiment to test before alerting them to exactly what I am doing. It would be interesting to see how they would behave, if they knew all to well that they could get away with it.

Very, very interesting.

Originally posted by chissler
Is it though? When we look at Nazi Germany, and the shear ignorance of the German people, not to mention the Nazi puppets, are we to believe that they are all evil people?

At it's core, without a complicated set of social circumstances attached to it such as a Nazi Germany example, lol, if it was just you and the choice of choosing to inflict or not to inflict harm excessively, was really more what I meant. But sure, when you start attaching all the situations Germans were forced into, that is going to blur the line considerably.

The teachers, doctors, lawyers, etc., are all evil? Well, maybe the latter.

Well, according to that other study:

One-third of guards were judged to have exhibited "genuine" sadistic tendencies...

If those statistics translate through to larger populations, add a mound of serious racial brainwashing, a ruthless dictatorship and military, public fearmongering, extreme peer pressure, racial hatred, and it becomes understandable how Hitler type regimes continue to persist.

Sadism is generally considered evil, wouldn't you think? 33% genuinely sadistic people wouldn't have exactly passed the good/evil test with flying colors. Well ok, maybe if Marquis de Sade was in charge.

That means that there well could have been a core 33% sadistic people in the German military to begin with. To me that's hard to believe. If those figures apply universally, then what about the implications of that in other militaries?

Great thread chissler, but it's a huge topic and I can't even begin to think where to start. I'm sure I'll want to expand on this later, but for now, this will have to do.

Since you're discussing this regarding Nazi Germany, I wanted to bring up some people I know. I'm not sure if this makes me unusual in terms of the kind of people the rest of you meet in your daily lives, but I used to work with a fellow (he lived across the street - my ride to work) who was in the Hitler Youth Party when he was a teenager. In addition to that, several years back one of our other co-workers discovered that his father is a Nazi war criminal and has been tried in absentia in Italy. This is what you get when you work for Volkswagen.

While it's not a subject he likes to discuss, I did ask J why he had joined the Hilter Youth and he said it was what all the kids were doing. They got out of school, wore little uniforms, marched around and generally had a great time with their buddies. It was, quite simply, the thing to do. The kids wanted to join because all their friends were doing it.

I am of very mixed feeling about the second Nazi that I have met. If you didn't know what he is accused of, all you would see is a wrinky old man who's losing his marbles. According to the Italian courts, he is the The Beast of Bolzano. I've only met Mr. Seifert twice, but I find it very hard to reconcile the man I met with the crimes he has been found guilty of. I have no doubt of his guilt, I just can't understand how he could do such things. This is a seemingly normal person.

I don't think either of these men are evil, although I do think Mr. Seifert has done some pretty evil things. Love the sinner, hate the sin etc.....

I'm not even sure what the whole point of this post is, except to say that it disturbs me to know how easily this kind of thing can happen, even for 'good' people. It's downright scary what people are capable of doing under the correct circumstances.

Originally posted by Duzey
Love the sinner, hate the sin etc.....

I envy you buggers who can take a huge concept and sum it up in six or seven syllables. Love the sinner, hate the sin. I like that.

Originally posted by Duzey
I'm not even sure what the whole point of this post is, except to say that it disturbs me to know how easily this kind of thing can happen, even for 'good' people. It's downright scary what people are capable of doing under the correct circumstances.

Exactly. This is the underlying theme of a few of my recent threads, one directed towards the media, where little things can have good people doing horrible things. I've not researched this experiment as I have the Zimbardo one, but I was floored when I began to read it.

As for the two individuals that you refer, to a lesser extent, I think we can all give some personal stories of people like that. Mind you they may not be Nazis, but the concept is applicable. I like to think that a basic human decency exists in all of us, and even if we could get away with something, most of us would restrain ourselves. Seems like, for the most part, the contrary is what we tend to see.

If you get the chance, check out the Zimbardo thread I've recently authored, and even offer some more thoughts on this one. Like you've said, there are so many ways to approach it. I'm looking to go into this workshop is a loaded arsenal. Hearing accounts of other people and what they think about it, will allow me to present the concept more efficiently to the youth.

Thank you for your post.

The Milgram Experiment

Chissler, good luck with your seminar. There is a wonderful book called "For Your Own Good" by Alice Miller. You might want to read it before the seminar. She talks about the roots of violence in our society, how they begin with parents teaching their children to obey them, no matter what. This is not really a good thing to teach kids. Better to teach them to make healthy choices. Always give your kid a choice, as in "Do you want to go without dinner? Or do you want to go without TV? Your choice." This is especially effective with punishment. Thekid feels like he has some control over his situation. Forcing kids to obey you no matter what, isn't good because it teaches the kid that you are the ultimate authority and should never be questioned. Kind of like our current U.S. society now.
Anyway, she has some very interesting things to say about the connection of obedience to authority and violence. I think that is a large part of the problem with the Milgram experiment - it showed that most people will obey without question when someone acts authoritatively.

For a follow up on the Milgram experiment see this string about How Evil Are You? The Milgram Experiement, hosted by Eli Roth

reply to post by chissler


I was just thrilled to find this thread today as it is such an important experiment which teaches us the psychology of how individuals can follow orders even when they go against what most would think their better judgement.

Proudly I bring this back out to the members as there are so many threads where we see this exact type of behavior being acted on worldwide to the destruction of our planet and our lives.

Here is a documentary by the Discovery channel, please join me as I watch it:

dsc.discovery.com...