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A Woman Rides The Beast- Hillary Clinton 2008?
page: 2share:
Originally posted by Ashley_T
mythatsabigprobe,
Upon researching there is no evidence that there are ten horns on the statue the woman is standing upon.
[edit on 11-3-2007 by Ashley_T]
Err...ya....my research skills need a little modifying....
I stand corrected.
Originally posted by queenannie38
Far more than you do, obviously.
But that's okay. The less we know, the more we can learn!
OTOH, the more we assume, the more we risk...well, you know:
ass U me
Obviously you know very little about me, so you are the one doing the Ass-U-Me stuff…
I have studied eschatology from the proper perspectives, under various religions, and from all three main schools of teaching on the subject. I am sorry if I am going to take the teachings of the tens of thousands of scholars on the subject over the drug induced hallucinations of the likes of Mr. Crawley.
Originally posted by queenannie38
And open mind is vibrant mind - a closed mind is dead.
Maybe you should study the topic from a broader perspective yourself and not be so closed minded.
I have always been cordial and open minded in dealing with other members of Thelema and the OTO, such as Cug, and have even learned a few things from him. As I have said I have studied the topic from a wide range of teachings. Personally don’t really see a reason to add Crawley’s teachings to that list as no one outside the followers of Thelema, Golden Dawn, the OTO, the AA, and some other small groups of Satanists, luciferians, and certain practitioners of magic, take him as a credible source of any information.
Originally posted by queenannie38
I'd be far more cautious about heeding the advice of anyone who tells you to limit your investigation in any way.
So which is more limiting, going off the research of ten of thousands of men over centuries, or one guy who did his research by entering drug induced trances and conjuring a daemon?
Yeah, when I want to know about God, I am really going to conjure a daemon and get my information from him…
Originally posted by queenannie38
There is no reason to fear information and there is no reason to believe that God will not guide us even if search all things...if we have faith we have no reason to fear. ANYTHING.
Its true that as a Christian we are not supposed to fear, I have little fear in dealing with topics such as Crowley as I have an unshakeable faith. It is not proper though, to teach others who may not be at that level of faith to go and seek out things which can range from confusing, to incorrect, to straight out blasphemous.
Obviously I have done a bit of reading on occult topics as I was able pick up on what it was you were preaching right away, and even relate it back to the OTO who you never even mentioned. So, am I still narrow minded, or a bit more well read and open minded then you give me credit for?
Originally posted by queenannie38
I follow in the very footsteps of Christ Jesus - just as he had no use for the Pharisee's religion, I have no use for christian 'theology.' Rather I seek the Mind of Christ.
Not if you’re following in the theology of Crawley who considered himself to be the Anti-Christ.
Originally posted by queenannie38
It is:
Do as thou wilt and harm none.
What's the difference?
No its:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Love is the law, love under will
Even though everyone is supposed to interpret what this means for themselves, it generally means that you love yourself first, not your neighbor, and not God. Do what you want, do what you love; love what you want to do. It conflicts against the Golden Rule that is part of every other true religion: “Love your God above all and love your neighbor as yourself”. If Crawley lived by his own law, then all one has to do is look at his lifestyle to tell this rule is all about self love and excesses.
Originally posted by queenannie38
Your mind is closed to learning but open to judging me based on whatever reason I give you for my avatar's choice of ornament?
How very Christ-like!
First, it is a common mistake by those who are anti-Christian, or have been exposed to anti-Christian propaganda, to believe that the bible tells Christians not to judge. Nothing could be further from the truth. The bible very certainly tells people to judge the actions of others, and not to associate with those that do not act in a Godly manner. That is what excommunication is all about.
What the Bible does say is that a Christian cannot judge a persons heart. In addition, the bit about “let he who is sinless throw the first stone” is not about judgment, but rather Christ was making a point of the fact that we all have sinned equally and deserve death. As a matter of fact God states that we are supposed to judge, and he gave the position of sitting in Judgment to wise men such as Solomon.
From the exact same sermon of Christ as the “Judge not” quote:
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Hm... So how are we to know who not to give something holy too, if we do not judge them by their actions to be worthy of that thing or not?
Besides that fact, I was not judging you anyway, I was asking a simple question…
After talking to Cug about the OTO he stated that it was not something a Christian would wish to join, not that they couldn’t do it, but rather that they are not compatible theologies. But maybe you just really don’t even understand enough about either groups theology to know any better.
[edit on 3/12/2007 by defcon5]
Originally posted by queenannie38
Babalon
NOT Babylon.
Actually this is incorrect, according to Strongs Hebrew and Greek Concordance its:
Βαβυλών
Babulōn
bab-oo-lone'
Of Hebrew origin [H894]; Babylon, the capital of Chaldaea (literally or figuratively as a type of tyranny): - Babylon.
So at best, it’s BabUlan, not BalAlon. Either way though, it refers to the world Empire of Babylon in its translation from Greek. See Biblical Prophecy cannot be studied in a vacuum, you must also study other prophecies that relate to that prophecy, and according to the book of Daniel, the Beasts are all world controlling Empires
Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
This is the Roman Empire, it is the exact same beast. It is also the first beast that is mentioned in Revelations 13:
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
In Revelations, the beast contains attributes of the three proceeding world empires. This is because historically Rome would absorb the cultures of the countries it conquered into its own culture. The proceeding Empires that Rome had ingested at the time of the writing of Revelations were: the Babylonian Empire, The Media/Persian Empire, and the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great.
Then something happened to Rome, it failed as an Empire, but it never really went away as a world power. Instead, it became a world power through the controlling of religion. Even though individual countries self ruled Europe from that point forward, there was always a Bishop of Rome at each kings side ensuring that each country follow the path prescribed by Mother Rome. This merging of the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Church is exactly what is being described, in incredible detail, in Revelations 17.
One of the most telling aspects of this relation to Rome is in this verse:
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
This Seven headed beast is the same seven headed beast mentioned in Revelations 13, the Roman Empire, that sat astride the Seven Hills of Rome. You must understand that in the time of the writing of Revelations, that Rome was persecuting the Christians, so when Christians wrote about Rome, they did so using certain allusions to it. This fact is also evident in other New Testiment books including many of the letters of Paul. Rome was so well known to be the City of the Seven Hills, that this was the allusion that the writer is using to talk about them without mentioning them by name.
Seven Hills of Rome
At the time that Revelation was written, the early Christians were persecuted by the pagan Roman Empire, which itself was historically known as the "City of Seven Hills". It is widely believed that the "seven mountains" mentioned refer to the seven hills of Rome.
[edit on 3/12/2007 by defcon5]
Lets take a look at the “little Horn” of Daniel for a second:
This little horn is not mentioned as a separate entity in Revelations, however it can be seen from comparing the actions of the “little horn” that this fourth beast is commanded or ruled by the horn.
This horn would do several things, he would:
1) Speak great things against God, even consider himself to be god on earth or Gods voice on earth.
2) Blaspheme Gods Tabernacle.
3) Wear out the saints (Christians), or persecute them.
4) Seek to Change the Times and the Laws, specifically Religious times and laws.
Now, is there any person in history that has done all these things?
Yes, and there has only ever been one…
This person existed within The Roman Empire, and exists to this day in Rome:
The duties of the Pontifex Maximus were:
1) Administration of jus divinum, or divine law.
2) Set the Calendar and Religious Calendar.
3) Persecute Heretics.
As the current Emperor of Rome normally held the Title of Pontifex Maximus, he was considered a god on earth, there were even temples specifically set up for Caesar worship. In fact the Seven Churches mentioned in Revelations 1 are all churches that existed in cities containing temples to Caesar, this is why they are specifically mentioned. Rome also was responsible for desecrating Gods Tabernacle through performing Caesar worship in then destroying the second Solomon’s Temple.
As such, does this list look familiar:
1) Caesar was worshiped as god on Earth, and later the Pontiff is considered the Vicar of Christ and ultimate voice of God among men
2) In 70AD, Emperor Titus destroyed the Second Temple after his troops set up his ensigns and standards in the Tabernacle and worshiped them.
3) Caesars, especially Nero, persecuted Christians by torturing them to death in various ways, including in the arena. Later as the Pontiff any Christians considered to hold Heretical beliefs were tortured and burned under the Inquisition. This is the most telling fact in relating Rome to these beasts, is that Rome has been to only empire in history to wholesale persecute Christians.
4) As said above the Pontifex Maximus set the jus divinum, or Devine Law, and was responsible for setting both the normal Calendar and Religious Calendar. Both of these jobs continued to belong to the Pope after the Roman Empire became the Roman Catholic Church. The Gregorian Calendar being a prime example of a calendar set by Pope Gregory. In addition, the Pontiff oversaw the canonization of multiple pagan celebrations into the Church holidays that are still followed today. Religious law was set by the Pope under the auspices of Papal Authority, and until the Protestant Reformation, was followed under pain of death at the hands of Inquisitors.
Still don’t believe this is all about world empires and Rome?
Where does this show up besides in the writings of Crawley or other works based on his works? Again, this LAM person was at best a work of drug induced fiction, and at worst a daemon.
Even your link does not show this to exist in any documentation outside that of the OTO, other then it also happens to be a word in Tibetan.
[edit on 3/12/2007 by defcon5]
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
This little horn is not mentioned as a separate entity in Revelations, however it can be seen from comparing the actions of the “little horn” that this fourth beast is commanded or ruled by the horn.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
This horn would do several things, he would:
1) Speak great things against God, even consider himself to be god on earth or Gods voice on earth.
2) Blaspheme Gods Tabernacle.
3) Wear out the saints (Christians), or persecute them.
4) Seek to Change the Times and the Laws, specifically Religious times and laws.
Now, is there any person in history that has done all these things?
Yes, and there has only ever been one…
This person existed within The Roman Empire, and exists to this day in Rome:
Pontifex Maximus
The Pontifex Maximus was the high priest of the Ancient Roman College of Pontiffs. This was the most important position in the Ancient Roman religion, open only to patricians, until 254 BC, when a plebeian first occupied this post. A distinctly religious office under the early Roman Republic, it gradually became politicized until, beginning with Augustus, it was subsumed into the Imperial office. It was last held by the Christian Roman Emperor Gratian until the title passed over to the Bishop of Rome.[1][2]
Today, "Pontifex Maximus" is one of the titles of the Bishop of Rome as Pope of the Catholic Church. As a papal title, the translation Supreme Pontiff is customary when writing in English, in which the Latin term Pontifex Maximus refers to the former pagan Roman post.
The duties of the Pontifex Maximus were:
1) Administration of jus divinum, or divine law.
2) Set the Calendar and Religious Calendar.
3) Persecute Heretics.
As the current Emperor of Rome normally held the Title of Pontifex Maximus, he was considered a god on earth, there were even temples specifically set up for Caesar worship. In fact the Seven Churches mentioned in Revelations 1 are all churches that existed in cities containing temples to Caesar, this is why they are specifically mentioned. Rome also was responsible for desecrating Gods Tabernacle through performing Caesar worship in then destroying the second Solomon’s Temple.
As such, does this list look familiar:
1) Caesar was worshiped as god on Earth, and later the Pontiff is considered the Vicar of Christ and ultimate voice of God among men
2) In 70AD, Emperor Titus destroyed the Second Temple after his troops set up his ensigns and standards in the Tabernacle and worshiped them.
3) Caesars, especially Nero, persecuted Christians by torturing them to death in various ways, including in the arena. Later as the Pontiff any Christians considered to hold Heretical beliefs were tortured and burned under the Inquisition. This is the most telling fact in relating Rome to these beasts, is that Rome has been to only empire in history to wholesale persecute Christians.
4) As said above the Pontifex Maximus set the jus divinum, or Devine Law, and was responsible for setting both the normal Calendar and Religious Calendar. Both of these jobs continued to belong to the Pope after the Roman Empire became the Roman Catholic Church. The Gregorian Calendar being a prime example of a calendar set by Pope Gregory. In addition, the Pontiff oversaw the canonization of multiple pagan celebrations into the Church holidays that are still followed today. Religious law was set by the Pope under the auspices of Papal Authority, and until the Protestant Reformation, was followed under pain of death at the hands of Inquisitors.
Still don’t believe this is all about world empires and Rome?
Originally posted by queenannie38
Besides...Babalon's initials are L.A.M. see here.
L.A.M. will be drawn from the water at Ra's Well. The NEW Mexico Moses.
Where does this show up besides in the writings of Crawley or other works based on his works? Again, this LAM person was at best a work of drug induced fiction, and at worst a daemon.
Documents of the OTO indicate that LAM is the Tibetan word for Way or Path and that a LAMA is "He who Goeth".
Even your link does not show this to exist in any documentation outside that of the OTO, other then it also happens to be a word in Tibetan.
[edit on 3/12/2007 by defcon5]
Originally posted by defcon5
Obviously you know very little about me, so you are the one doing the Ass-U-Me stuff…
You're right. I know nothing about you except what you posted. Which was:
Originally posted by defcon5
What exactly does this have to do with the bible, after all members of Thelema are not Jewish, and are not Christian, so what would they possibly know about the subject?
You are assuming that only those who consider themselves Jews or Christians are qualified to know anything about the bible.
I have studied eschatology from the proper perspectives, under various religions, and from all three main schools of teaching on the subject.
What are the 'proper' perspectives?
I am sorry if I am going to take the teachings of the tens of thousands of scholars on the subject over the drug induced hallucinations of the likes of Mr. Crawley.
No one is asking you to do so. I wouldn't either. I'd rather just trust God.
Maybe you should study the topic from a broader perspective yourself and not be so closed minded.
My Teacher has the broadest perspective there is - I don't - but I DO trust my Teacher implicitly.
I have always been cordial and open minded in dealing with other members of Thelema and the OTO, such as Cug, and have even learned a few things from him.
I'm not a member of Thelema or OTO, either one. I'm a member of the human race and that's it.
As I have said I have studied the topic from a wide range of teachings.
Yes, I do recall you saying that.
Personally don’t really see a reason to add Crawley’s teachings to that list
Your reasoning is not what determines what I post.
So which is more limiting, going off the research of ten of thousands of men over centuries, or one guy who did his research by entering drug induced trances and conjuring a daemon?
You assume Crowley is my source. He is not. I know less about Crowley than you do, more than likely.
Yeah, when I want to know about God, I am really going to conjure a daemon and get my information from him…
When I want to know about God...I ask God.
Its true that as a Christian we are not supposed to fear, I have little fear in dealing with topics such as Crowley as I have an unshakeable faith. It is not proper though, to teach others who may not be at that level of faith to go and seek out things which can range from confusing, to incorrect, to straight out blasphemous.
If it is truth then it is not blasphemous. God makes all crooked paths straight - if you trust God for yourself then why not trust someone else's direction in the same fashion?
Obviously I have done a bit of reading on occult topics as I was able pick up on what it was you were preaching right away, and even relate it back to the OTO who you never even mentioned.
I'm not 'preaching' anything. I didn't mention the OTO because I know even less about that then I do about Mr. Crowley!
So, am I still narrow minded, or a bit more well read and open minded then you give me credit for?
No change.
Not if you’re following in the theology of Crawley who considered himself to be the Anti-Christ.
I am not following theology of any sort...Christian or 'anti-christian.' I am following Christ's path and examples. Period.
Even though everyone is supposed to interpret what this means for themselves, it generally means that you love yourself first, not your neighbor, and not God.
That is what it means to YOU.
If Crawley lived by his own law, then all one has to do is look at his lifestyle to tell this rule is all about self love and excesses.
I don't have any interest in the lifestyle of Mr. Crowley...or anyone else for that matter. Only my own.
The bible very certainly tells people to judge the actions of others, and not to associate with those that do not act in a Godly manner. That is what excommunication is all about.
Actions are what we SEE. What appears...not what is intended.
John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
There is NO excommunication!
John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
What the Bible does say is that a Christian cannot judge a persons heart.
That's right. If you don't know someone's heart then you have no business whatsoever judging their actions as either Godly or not.
In addition, the bit about “let he who is sinless throw the first stone” is not about judgment, but rather Christ was making a point of the fact that we all have sinned equally and deserve death.
Good thing that the same principle applies to grace, huh?
As a matter of fact God states that we are supposed to judge, and he gave the position of sitting in Judgment to wise men such as Solomon.
You are not Solomon nor are you Moses.
Hm... So how are we to know who not to give something holy too, if we do not judge them by their actions to be worthy of that thing or not?
The lesson about judgment comes long before one is given stewardship over 'holy things.'
After talking to Cug about the OTO he stated that it was not something a Christian would wish to join, not that they couldn’t do it, but rather that they are not compatible theologies. But maybe you just really don’t even understand enough about either groups theology to know any better.
It goes far beyond your conception of this or that theology…and is also irrelevant to this discussion.
Originally posted by queenannie38
You are assuming that only those who consider themselves Jews or Christians are qualified to know anything about the bible.
Only the Holy Spirit can guide you to correctly interpret the scriptures, so how can someone that has no such belief truly understand them?
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Originally posted by queenannie38
What are the 'proper' perspectives?
Well first, someone should have a very good grasp on the entire bible before going into prophecy as they’re the most difficult parts to understand.
Either way though it should be read in context, taking into consideration the historical considerations of when it was written, and should be read with the help of the Holy Spirit. You must also be careful to read it using exegesis and not eisegesis, drawing out the true meaning, not trying to fit a certain meaning into it that you want it to have.
When reading prophecy specifically it helps to have a fairly good grasp on history, and to have studied the major schools of interpretation, those being Futurism, Preterism, and Historicism. There are a few more, but these three are the main ones. Schools such as Idealism I personally don’t find to be very credible as they go against other scripture.
Believe it or not I have seen pastors who have held classes on end times prophecy and not even be aware that there are various schools of interpretation.
Originally posted by queenannie38
I'm not a member of Thelema or OTO, either one. I'm a member of the human race and that's it.
Hmm.. Ok then why link through the thelemapedia?
Why believe in Babalon, which is strictly a spelling of Babylon chosen by Crowley?
From your own link:
Crowley probably chose the spelling of Babalon for its Qabalistic significance. By replacing the letter 'y' with an 'a', the word 'AL' appears in the center. The whole then naturally breaks into Bab-al-on. 'Bab' is Arabic for a door, or gate. 'AL' is the Key of Liber Legis, and is also a Qabalistic title of God, meaning 'The One' in Hebrew. 'On' is the name of the Egyptian city that the Greeks called Heliopolis, the City of the Pyramids. By gematria, Babalon sums to 156, which is the number of squares on each of the elemental Enochian tablets of Dee and Kelly.
Originally posted by queenannie38
You assume Crowley is my source. He is not. I know less about Crowley than you do, more than likely.
Crowley MUST be your source as he is the creator of the concept of Babalon, and of LAM. See above quote ^…
So even if your getting your information second hand, Crowley is still your source, no matter if you realize it or not.
Originally posted by queenannie38
If it is truth then it is not blasphemous. God makes all crooked paths straight - if you trust God for yourself then why not trust someone else's direction in the same fashion?
Not everything is truth…
Not everyone is on the right path…
I am certainly not going to follow someone that is following someone else that I know was on the wrong path such as Crowley. Crowley’s path is about as opposite of the path of Christ and the word of God as one can get.
Most Christian organizations are not as polite as I am being on the topic, to them Thelema, OTO, Golden Dawn, and the rest are all Satanism.
Originally posted by queenannie38
That is what it means to YOU.
No that IS what it means... It's about finding a persons “true will”, again from your source:
True Will
The phrase "True Will" does not appear in the Book of the Law. Nevertheless, Crowley's various commentaries on the Book routinely postulate that each individual has a unique and incommensurable True Will that determines their proper course in life. This invention of Crowley's appears to be an attempt to explain how some actions may be wrong (or "false") when "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt." (CCXX III:60) Actions that conform to True Will are thus considered to be correct, while willed actions that deviate from True Will may nevertheless be wrong.
For a Christian its not about a persons will, it's about doing the Will of God. Again, Thelema is about putting self first which is against not only what Christ taught, but also against the Golden Rule of all true religions.
Originally posted by queenannie38
I don't have any interest in the lifestyle of Mr. Crowley...or anyone else for that matter.
Again, then why quote theology that is unique to the teachings of the man, such as Babalon and Lam? There are no alternative sources for these teachings they are strictly teachings from Aleister Crowley.
Originally posted by queenannie38
There is NO excommunication!
Join a Christian Church then tell them you can only come every other Sunday as you have OTO meetings to attend, and you’ll find out real quickly there is such a thing as excommunication.
There is also excommunication in the Jewish faith, here are some of the grounds for it:
The Lord told Abraham that uncircumcised males should be excluded from the people (Gen 17:14). Similarly, Moses was commanded that those who committed serious sin were to be “cut off from among their people” (Lev 18:29). Jesus taught that a person who rejected admonition should be excluded from the Christian community (Mt 18:15-17). The apostle Paul wrote that members of the church should not so much as eat with a person guilty of immorality (1 Cor 5:1-13). The apostle John advised his audience “receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds” (2 Jn 10-11). Out of these and a large multitude of similar scriptural passages emerged the practice of excommunication, in both Judaism and Christianity.
Originally posted by queenannie38
That's right. If you don't know someone's heart then you have no business whatsoever judging their actions as either Godly or not.
God judges in the temporal arena, and the eternal. In this life God will judge a person's actions, but always (except when the person has irrevocably rejected Him) holds out the chance for turning back and repenting. Only on the Last Day, at the great white throne judgment will God pronounce eternal judgment on a person, forever determining his or her destinies. From this judgment, there is no appeal or second chance.
The Christian, on the other hand, is never given the right or the responsibility of eternally judging anyone (unless they have clearly rejected Christ permanently). Christians cannot correctly weigh action, motives, opportunities, nor know all things about any individual: God alone is capable to do so.
However, Christians are to make decisions (appraisals, discernments, and even take corrective actions). But even judging in this aspect is intended to be remedial, and leaves the door open to the person for repentance and reconciliation. Any judging on the part of a Christian which does not, is a false aspect of Christian judgment. We are called upon to ''judge righteous judgment'' (John 7:24) and failure to do so is to be negligent in a crucial aspect of our Christian calling.
Better put then I can state it…
Either way, I still fail to see where I have pronounced any judgment on you; I have based my argument up to this point on the sources you are quoting on prophetic interpretation of a biblical passage.
Originally posted by queenannie38
Good thing that the same principle applies to grace, huh?
Yes, as long as one is also repentant.
Originally posted by queenannie38
You are not Solomon nor are you Moses.
I guess I missed the bit where I said I was…
[edit on 3/12/2007 by defcon5]
Originally posted by defcon5
Again, then why quote theology that is unique to the teachings of the man, such as Babalon and Lam? There are no alternative sources for these teachings they are strictly teachings from Aleister Crowley.
Hmmm and why do you need and alternative source? You dont seem to need any when you quote from the writings of the bible. So how can say for certainty that Cowley is wrong?
You do know she is the LAM dont you?
You have no clue...its not your fault everyone has a hard time understanding Lucifer...at first. Take heed to the following lyrics snippet.
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But whats confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me lucifer
cause Im in need of some restraint
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or Ill lay your soul to waste, um yeah
You really should show the lady some respect because now the Devil wears a blue dress.
Originally posted by queenannie38
It is:
Do as thou wilt and harm none.
What's the difference?
Originally posted by daffcon5
No its:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Love is the law, love under will
Actually depends on what quote you are referring too. From my teachings it has been.
"An it harm none, do what thine wilt
Love is the Law Love is the Bond"
This means to harm none including yourself in any way shape or form.
Love is the Law...this is the law from the source.
Sorry for the interruption, carry on...
Edit to add more quotes
[edit on 12-3-2007 by LoneGunMan]
Originally posted by defcon5
Only the Holy Spirit can guide you to correctly interpret the scriptures, so how can someone that has no such belief truly understand them?
Who said I didn't have that belief?
Actually....I don't....not anymore. Now I KNOW that without a doubt. Beyond faith into understanding/knowledge.
Well first, someone should have a very good grasp on the entire bible before going into prophecy as they’re the most difficult parts to understand.
A very good grasp on the bible?
Try me.
It IS the LAM's book of life, remember?
You must also be careful to read it using exegesis and not eisegesis, drawing out the true meaning, not trying to fit a certain meaning into it that you want it to have.
You are preaching to the choir, my dear.
\o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/
Although it is not about DRAWING out...God draws US out...the Holy Spirit REVEALS to us His WORD. If we draw from the well on our own, the water is bitter poison. But if we drink when the Holy Spirit gives us to drink...it is truly LIVING water!!
When reading prophecy specifically it helps to have a fairly good grasp on history, and to have studied the major schools of interpretation, those being Futurism, Preterism, and Historicism. There are a few more, but these three are the main ones. Schools such as Idealism I personally don’t find to be very credible as they go against other scripture.
To be quite honest - all that is a bunch of men's teachings and postulations...crap basically. If we listen to men we cannot hear God. Either or. One of two masters...not both.
Believe it or not I have seen pastors who have held classes on end times prophecy and not even be aware that there are various schools of interpretation.
I'm sure you have. That's why I have no use for men's teachings. Why should I go through a middle man when Christ is our middle man? ONE is all we need.
Why believe in Babalon, which is strictly a spelling of Babylon chosen by Crowley?
Technically there were no vowels back then anyway so it is a superfluous point.
I believe in God and God loves me. So there is no reason not to believe in myself as being who I am. God is for me - who can be against me?
From your own link:
I googled that. It is easy to do. I dislike giving a statement contrary to popular opinion without giving some sort of starting place for interested seekers.
Crowley MUST be your source as he is the creator of the concept of Babalon, and of LAM. See above quote ^…
So even if your getting your information second hand, Crowley is still your source, no matter if you realize it or not.
No. God is my source. There is only one creator...of all things. Including Babalon/Babylon...however you spell it. The key here is the fact that I am no longer a baby..a child. I am all grown up and ready to do the work I was sent here to do.
So...Babalon is better than Baby lon. See?
Not everything is truth…
Not everyone is on the right path…
I am certainly not going to follow someone that is following someone else that I know was on the wrong path such as Crowley. Crowley’s path is about as opposite of the path of Christ and the word of God as one can get.
I know you think you know this. However you are mistaken. There is but one set of footsteps...they lead right up to the foot of the cross...up onto the cross...nails and all. That is only the halfway point. But until we get there we cannot understand the universal nature of carnal death. Crowley died just like Jesus died. Just like we all have died.
Most Christian organizations are not as polite as I am being on the topic, to them Thelema, OTO, Golden Dawn, and the rest are all Satanism.
Who cares? Their judgments and even rudeness are nothing to me, personally. Although they are not a true reflection of Christ in any way.
"There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt." (CCXX III:60) Actions that conform to True Will are thus considered to be correct, while willed actions that deviate from True Will may nevertheless be wrong.
For a Christian its not about a persons will, it's about doing the Will of God. Again, Thelema is about putting self first which is against not only what Christ taught, but also against the Golden Rule of all true religions.
Are you under grace or the law? I am under grace. To the pure all things are pure! Why should my freedom be judged by you when God is my judge and has not convicted me? Why should I deny the gift of grace just because you don't think it applies to all men? Including Aleister Crowley?
Again, then why quote theology that is unique to the teachings of the man, such as Babalon and Lam? There are no alternative sources for these teachings they are strictly teachings from Aleister Crowley.
The Holy Spirit. God. I am Babalon. I am LAM. My name is Lucretia Ann Myers. That's not the whole story or even 1% of 1% of it. It would take 8 years to tell you all and you wouldn't accept any of it anyway. It doesn't matter anyway. God didn't seek to prove it to others but to me. There are other things to prove to the world. Such as God IS real...God IS good....God IS love...God is PERFECT.
Join a Christian Church then tell them you can only come every other Sunday as you have OTO meetings to attend, and you’ll find out real quickly there is such a thing as excommunication.
What does THAT have to do with what Jesus said? 'a christian church' is just another man-made assembly. The true church is the body of Christ.
God judges in the temporal arena, and the eternal. In this life God will judge a person's actions, but always (except when the person has irrevocably rejected Him) holds out the chance for turning back and repenting.
Do you KNOW that for sure? Do you KNOW for sure that you have been judged?
I do - I have. There is no irrevocable rejection of God...only incomplete awareness of His Glory. Once He reveals His Glory to any soul...in full...there is NO possible way the soul desires to run the other way. God is too perfect and too beautiful with loving-kindness...none can refuse their creator forever.
EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess. GOD said it and so it will be. His will WILL be done.
Yes, as long as one is also repentant.
You have to be a sinner before you can be a saint.
Originally posted by queenannie38
You are not Solomon nor are you Moses.
I guess I missed the bit where I said I was…
No - what you said was that God gave the right to judge to wise men like Solomon. There are none like Solomon who God gave infinite wisdom to! God gave Moses the Law...Solomon the wisdom...and he gave Christ the glory of manifesting perfect AGAPE love for all men. And there are others mentioned who will 'rise up in judgment' - one specifically being 'the Queen of the South.'
So unless you know Moses or know who the Queen of the South is...you don't know anyone who has been given the right to judge God's people (which is the whole human race).
Originally posted by defcon5
The most commonly accepted interpretation of this verse is that the Woman is the Roman Catholic Church and the Beast is the Roman Empire. The beast has seven heads, which relates to the seven hills of Rome. There are even statues of the woman with the cup that the masons placed in some of the early Roman Cathedrals to indicate this relationship.
defcon5, WTF?
Hmm, I guess you're just another anti-Catholic punk spewing his anti-catholic hate.
Oh, and most commonly accepted by who?
Oh right, the protestants who follow the new testament canon chosen by the Roman Catholic Church.
[edit on 12-3-2007 by thehumbleone]
Originally posted by LoneGunMan
You really should show the lady some respect because now the Devil wears a blue dress.
AND
the pony boys have arrived!
Men, that is.
(pedal, boys!)
I don't give a damn bout my reputation
You're living in the past its a new generation
A girl can do what she wants to do and thats
What I'm gonna do
An I don't give a damn bout my bad reputation
Oh no not me
An I don't give a damn bout my reputation
Never said I wanted to improve my station
An I'm only doin' good
When I'm havin' fun
An I don't have to please no one
An I don't give a damn
bout my bad reputation
Oh no, not me
Oh no, not me
I don't give a damn
bout my reputation
Ive never been afraid of any deviation
An I don't really care
If ya think I'm strange
I ain't gonna change
An I'm never gonna care
bout my bad reputation
Oh no, not me
Oh no, not me
Pedal boys!
An I don't give a damn
bout my reputation
The worlds in trouble
There's no communication
An everyone can say
What they want to say
It never gets better anyway
So why should I care
bout a bad reputation anyway
Oh no, not me
Oh no, not me
I don't give a damn bout my bad reputation
You're living in the past
It's a new generation
An I only feel good
When I got no pain
An that's how I'm gonna stay
An I don't give a damn
bout my bad reputation
Oh no, not me
Oh no, not
Not me, not me
© Joan Jett & the Blackhearts
]i[ AM that eYe am
Originally posted by queenannie38
the pony boys have arrived!
Men, that is.
Isnt that some kind of kinky thing? Like where the women wear a riding outfit and the men...get...rode...like a pony?
Ahem..
[edit on 12-3-2007 by LoneGunMan]
Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Isn't that some kind of kinky thing? Like where the women wear a riding outfit and the men...get...rode...like a pony?
You must be speaking of Lady God-Iva… who rode through Coven-Tree in full and glorious natural splendor mounted horseback in protest of her husband’s unfair taxation!
Yes! In DEED. No riding outfit, though!
And it wasn't kinky! It was public service!
It's all the same...only the names have been changed...to protect the guilty from the innocent!
[edit on 3/12/2007 by queenannie38]
Originally posted by thehumbleone
Hmm, I guess you're just another anti-Catholic punk spewing his anti-catholic hate.
I am too old to be a punk, but thanks for the compliment on my youth anyway…
I happen to follow the school of Historicism in my prophetic beliefs. This was not always the case though, as when I was younger, I did not realize any school existed outside of Futurism. Personally, I don’t have anything against Catholics in general, I even went to a Catholic High School, and I am sure that there are many good and true Christians within Catholicism. However, that changes nothing in the aspect of what is clearly referred to in the prophecies as being the Roman Catholic Church, the Pontiff, and the Roman Empire.
When Martin Luther first made the connection between the “little horn” of Daniel and the Pontiff, Rome tried like crazy to cover this prophetic connection up. They had scholars from the Jesuit Order come up with competing interpretations of these prophecies. The school of prophetic interpretation now accepted by the Roman Catholic Church is Preterism, it’s their choice because it’s the one with the most truth in it so they can slide the few misinterpretations right by you.
If you look in a Catholic Bible with commentary, you’ll find that they admit that the Beast is Rome, the allusion to the “Seven Hills” is almost impossible for them to cover up. The Lie though, is that they attribute this beast to only Nero Emperor of Rome.
The other prophetic school of interpretation that the Jesuits came up with is now known as Futurism. Futurism has found a popular culture in the Fundamentalist movement, and in many independent Christian Churches, even though it was rejected by Rome who invented it. Futurism is also the school that most popular media on the end times is written about. Stories such as “Left Behind”, and the books of Hal Lindsey are based on it. Personally, I believe that the reason Futurism has gained such a foothold is that it is the only school that supports a rebirth of Israel to complete the end times. I don’t think I need to explain to anyone here why certain powers that be would have an agenda where they wish to get the Christians to side up with Israel. I also don’t think I need to explain to anyone who it is that controls the Media in the USA.
To me these other two competing schools of interpretation encompass what the Bible refers to as the Great Deception.
Originally posted by thehumbleone
Oh, and most commonly accepted by who?
First off, go back and read the whole thread not just the first couple of posts. I already gave an explanation in the thread to this exact question; here I’ll quote it for you:
Originally posted by defcon5
Originally posted by Mahree
Most commonly accepted by whom? Any statistics on that?
Not by the Roman Catholics surely?
What is your source for this "commonly accepted interpretation?"
Actually the Roman Catholic Church currently believes in the prophetic school of Preterism and as such they admit that Revelations relates to Rome, the only difference is that they believe it only relates back to Rome under Nero.
It identifies "Babylon the Great" (Revelation 17-18) with the ancient pagan City of Rome or Jerusalem.
Those of the school of Historicism accept that it is exactly the way I stated it, the Roman Empire, and the Roman Church.
Whore of Babylon (Revelation chapter 17) with the Roman Catholic Church, the Papal system and each successive Pope himself
Many Futurists believe that the Whore relates to a new revived Roman Empire that many attribute to the European Union.
The idea that it relates to Rome though is pretty much not refuted by any of the three main schools of eschatology, as the indicator of the seven hills to the seven heads, and that she sits on seven mountains, is pretty definitive.
As these three schools are embraced by all mainline Christian religions, you can bet it’s a majority. Just in the Protestants that believe in Historicism and the Catholics who believe in Preterism that is that largest percentage of Christians in the world.
Originally posted by thehumbleone
Oh right, the protestants who follow the new testament canon chosen by the Roman Catholic Church.
Incorrect…
I suppose next you’ll try to tell me that the cannon was selected by the Roman Catholic Church during the Council of Nicaea. The gospel books of the bible had already been in use before this council, and there was already an accepted cannon in use by the early Christian Church. The Muratorian fragment is so far the oldest know copy of the New Testament, and it is dated around 142-157 AD. Irenaeus was the person who should to receive most of the credit for choosing the standard set of New Testament books that now comprise the New Testament Cannon. The Catholic Church did exist at this point, but the Church had not become intermingled with the Roman Empire yet. Rome was still persecuting Christians under Marcus Aurelius, during Irenaeus lifetime. The Old Testament was based on the Latin Compilation of Hebrew works known as the Septuagint.
I am sorry if this is not what you consider politically correct, but not being politically correct does not make it incorrect either. Not everything has to be politically correct in an imperfect world.
Originally posted by defcon5
I happen to follow the school of Historicism in my prophetic beliefs.
Why don't you just follow the Holy Spirit?
The Lie though, is that they attribute this beast to only Nero Emperor of Rome.
Do you really think they are purposefully LYING about it?
Could it not be that they are merely mistaken? Or confused?
WHY would anyone put on a front of serving God and then LIE to the people they serve in God's name? There is a big discrepancy there and I don't think people are that devious when it concerns spiritual matters.
To call someone a liar is a HARSH accusation...even from a distance. If their intentions are not malignant, then might your accusations be considered somewhat UNjustified? Can you read their hearts and minds?
K eep
I t
S imple
Beasts:
I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. Ecclesiastes 3:18
The sons of men...are the beasts!!!
To me these other two competing schools of interpretation encompass what the Bible refers to as the Great Deception.
Then why allow yourself to possibly be deceived by following the teachings of men?
Do you not believe that the Spirit of Truth will show you, yourself, the truth in the scriptures? Because if you don't trust the Spirit...and choose to go through a third party...not only are you not sure if that third party is being led by the Spirit...you are shutting yourself out from receiving the information, yourself!
The Spirit of Truth does what it wills...when it wills.
BUT it will NOT compete with men for your attention or trust.
It identifies "Babylon the Great" (Revelation 17-18) with the ancient pagan City of Rome or Jerusalem.
BUT that is not what the writer intended! Babylon - being a whore - would more likely be a woman than a religious institution, don't you think?
An individual...just like: Alexander the Great, Constantine the Great, Catherine the Great.
And if it were a city, then why not consider that it is actually Babylon? Babylon is usually called Babylon in the bible...or Assyria or Ninevah.
When we speak of a thing, such a place, group, or institution, as 'Great' it is invariably put before the noun, itself. Only when speaking of individuals do we put the 'Great' behind their proper name - with the article!
Something easily investigated!
The idea that it relates to Rome though is pretty much not refuted by any of the three main schools of eschatology, as the indicator of the seven hills to the seven heads, and that she sits on seven mountains, is pretty definitive.
Why?
It could be any one of the following: Byzantium, Babylon, Jerusalem, and Rome.
Or it could be something else altogether. It isn't like seven is a rarely used number in the bible! It means divine perfection!
If John marveled at the whore with great admiration, and she was called 'the Great', sitting upon the symbol of divine perfection - the continued insistence of bible 'scholars' to turn this symbolism into something representing condemnation seems almost perverse.
Why? Because she is a whore?
Or because the religious men need a place to put those who they consider 'them' to their 'us?'
Remember Nineveh DID repent, in full, when Jonah came with the warning from god! Christ is pretty straightforward regarding Nineveh/Babylon:
Matthew 12:40-42
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Why not apply the same standard of mental acumen to reading the bible as you would to, say, the Sunday Paper? The Spirit will lead us and reveal the truth - but yet if we don't even apply logic to what we read, we are not even helping ourselves be helped by God!
God gave you a brain for a reason. And not just to keep your head from imploding into a crater.
As these three schools are embraced by all mainline Christian religions, you can bet it’s a majority.
What does it matter if it is a 'majority?'
ESPECIALLY when you consider this statement:
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 12:9
The WHOLE world would be considered the majority, wouldn't it?
The whole world deceived. hmmm....
Common sense would tell a person that whatever idea is 'commonly accepted,' a claim of which is proven by agreement with the majority, is the deception!
Originally posted by queenannie38
Why don't you just follow the Holy Spirit?
I believe that the Holy Spirit lead me to a deeper understanding of prophecy, to seek it out, and learn what each of the major teachings on it are. Once you study the three schools, and understand the prophetic language used, it becomes very clear which school matches the events of history.
Many Christians don't know this, but there are really three major "prophetic schools" of interpretation now in conflict - Preterism, Historicism, and Futurism. Each of these schools view the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation differently. This Prophetic Perspectives series will simplify and clarify the issues.
One of the most well-respected Bible Commentators in the history of Christianity was England's well-beloved, E.B. Elliott. In 1862, the 5th edition of his classic four-volume Horae Apocalypticae - A Commentary on the Apocalypse, was published in London. The great Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon, in his Comments on the Commentaries, considered Elliott's work "the standard."
Volume 4 contains a well-written, thorough, and extremely valuable overview of every major Apocalyptic commentator in the history of Christianity - from the days of John to the mid 1800's - called History of Apocalyptic Interpretation. As a result of his vast research and tremendous historical perspective, Elliott clearly reveals the three major contending schools of prophetic interpretation.
"For, in conclusion, the readers of this Historic Sketch will see that there are but three grand Schemes of Apocalyptic Interpretation that can be considered as standing up face to face against each other... The 1st is that of the Praeterists; respecting the subject of prophecy, except in its two or three last chapters [of Revelation], to the catastrophes of the Jewish nation and old Roman Empire ... which Scheme, originally propounded, as we saw, by the Jesuit Alcasar, and then adopted by Grotius ... by Professor Moses Stuart in the United States of America, and by disciples in the German School in England ...
"The 2nd is the Futurist Scheme; making the whole of the Apocalyptic Prophecy, (excepting perhaps the primary Vision and Letters to the Seven Churches,) to relate to things now future, viz. the things concerning Christ's second Advent: a Scheme first set forth, [as] we saw, by the Jesuit [Francisco] Ribera, at the end of the 16th century; and which in its main principle has been urged alike by Dr. S.R. Maitland, Mr. Burgh, the Oxford Tractator on Antichrist, and others, in our own times and era, not without considerable success ...
"The 3rd is what we may call emphatically the Protestant continuous Historic Scheme of Interpretation; that which regards the Apocalypse as a prefiguration in detail of the chief events affecting the Church and Christendom, whether secular or ecclesiastical, from St. John's time to the consummation: - a Scheme which, in regard of its particular application of the symbols of Babylon and the Beast to Papal Rome and Popedom, was early embraced, as we saw, by the Waldenses, Wickliffites, and Hussites; then adopted with fuller light by the chief [Protestant] reformers, German, Swiss, French and English, of the 16th century; and transmitted downwards uninterruptedly, even to the present time.
"It is the last of which [the Protestant Historicist School] which I embrace for my own part with a full and ever strengthening conviction of its truth." Horae, Vol. 4, pps. 562, 563.
The Horae Apocalypticae, is a very good spot to start if you wish to truly learn the history of eschatology, and learn what the three main schools of interpretation are.
Originally posted by queenannie38
Do you really think they are purposefully LYING about it?
Could it not be that they are merely mistaken? Or confused?
To call someone a liar is a HARSH accusation...even from a distance. If their intentions are not malignant, then might your accusations be considered somewhat UNjustified? Can you read their hearts and minds?
By the time martin Luther lived and had the guts to stand up to Rome, it was already more of a political power then it was a religion. They tried very hard to have Luther silenced, the only thing that kept Luther alive was that he had won over many of the lords in Germany. He had shown them how Rome was twisting the scriptures to squeeze the masses for profit, and he sought to correct that. Luther quite innocently started out simply trying to reform the Roman Catholic Church, as he was an Augustinian Monk, but then he found out the hard way that the problems with the church were not accidental, but intentional.
When he first encountered Indulgences he understood them to be a misinterpretation on the part of Johann Tetzel, and he wrote the 95 Theses to the Archbishop of Mainz, he similarly nailed them on the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg. Students took the 95 Theses, and using the then new printing press, distributed them widely across Germany. Rome was caught publicly lying, misusing the scripture, and abusing the masses with the purpose of attaining money to pay for its crusades against the Turks, and the building of several cathedrals. Needless to say this was quite embarrassing to them, and they sought to have Luther recant. Rome was used to steamrolling over anyone that dared to oppose them, but this time ended up being different as the points made in the 95 Thesis were so clearly put forward that they won over protection for Luther from many of the German Nobles. Therefore, when Rome wished to put Luther before the Inquisition to be tortured and burnt at the stake, they were unable to gain custody of him without proving that he had committed a crime in Germany. Germany basically refused to extradite Luther back to Rome to face the Inquisition, which was simply a death sentence and certainly not a real court. It was finally agreed that Luther would be tried in Worms before the Diet and was granted safe conduct there under Charles the 5th, Since Charles had promised that no German Citizen would ever be convicted without a fair trial. When asked to recant his writings, which Rome was unable to show as erroneous, Luther’s response was:
Unless I shall be convinced by the testimonies of the Scriptures or by clear reason … I neither can nor will make any retraction, since it is neither safe nor honourable to act against conscience. God help me. Amen.
Pretty gutsy for someone that possibly faced the Inquisition, but he stuck to his guns because he was correct and he knew that Rome was lying. Anyway the rest of the story is, as they say, history….
Rome has lied before, it has no problem with lying, and has killed many innocent people to cover its lies. Their lies throughout history have been intentional with the purpose to gaining power, money, and exerting political influence over nations of the world. They were never able to prove that Martin Luther was in error in any of his writings on their misinterpretations before a court of law, which is proof that their interpretations were wrong. The fact that they knew their interpretations were wrong yet stood by them, tells that they were intentional. As Preterism, and Futurism were in response to Historicism, which became widely accepted under Luther, I find it hard to believe that they are anything less then more intentional lies put forth by the Roman Catholic Church as damage control.
Originally posted by queenannie38
WHY would anyone put on a front of serving God and then LIE to the people they serve in God's name?
Where does a wise person look for Satan in this world? Hanging out with people he has already won over such as Satanist, or trying to infiltrate Gods Church where he can do some real damage?
You know, wisdom...
Its one of the gifts of the Spirit…
Originally posted by queenannie38
I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. Ecclesiastes 3:18
The sons of men...are the beasts!!!
Perhaps you can explain why God would contradict himself on this interpretation then?
After all, the reason that we know for a fact that the beasts are kingdoms, is because God sent an Angel to Daniel to interpret his dreams for him. These same beasts are the images used in the prophecies of Revelations, and thus must also be kingdoms.
Here is the condensed version for space purposes:
Dan 7:2 Daniel spoke and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings:
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear,
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard,
Dan 7:7 And behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly;
Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
So they are kingdoms…
Keep it even simpler: the interpretation is right in the prophecy, not from some other random quote from somewhere else in the bible…
[edit on 3/13/2007 by defcon5]
Originally posted by queenannie38
Then why allow yourself to possibly be deceived by following the teachings of men?
I don’t believe that I am deceived; I work within the confines of the inspired scripture of God and use that as reproof of what I read outside scripture. With your apparent belief in such concepts as LAM, Babalon, and whatever kind of goddess worship you have eluded too multiple times, I would have to guess you are the one basing belief on man made concepts.
I have read your links and they go into all kinds of manmade pseudo-doctrine: pyramids, L Ron Hubbard, Scientology, Ritual sexual majic, Alister Crowley, Aliens, you name it, all things that have nothing to do with the inspired Word of God.
I am not even sure what you believe at this point, as everything you quote you deny believing in. Maybe your just trying to mish-mash a whole bunch of religions together, but remember what Christ said about trying to follow multiple religions:
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Serving God and mammon seems to be exactly what you’re trying to do from what you have written so far...
Originally posted by queenannie38
Do you not believe that the Spirit of Truth will show you, yourself, the truth in the scriptures? Because if you don't trust the Spirit...and choose to go through a third party...not only are you not sure if that third party is being led by the Spirit...you are shutting yourself out from receiving the information, yourself!
The Spirit of Truth does what it wills...when it wills.
BUT it will NOT compete with men for your attention or trust.
You keep going on about the spirit, but the Spirit of God grants different men different gifts. Not all men are gifted with the ability to understand prophecy, yet there are others who are gifted, and write about it. The trick is that all Christians are gifted with discernment, which means that I can tell when I am reading something that is in agreement with the scripture and when I am reading something that is not. So far all the links you have sent me fall into the “not” department. Obviously when all I knew was Futurism, it did not seem to agree with what I was reading in scripture, and so I continued searching until I learned the truth.
Originally posted by queenannie38
BUT that is not what the writer intended! Babylon - being a whore - would more likely be a woman than a religious institution, don't you think?
Nope! You ever read the book of Hosea, the entire book is about a man being told to marry a whore so he could understand the pain experienced by God when his people betrayed him, then write about it. In Hosea the connection between a literal female prostitute, cheating on her husband, and an entire kingdom of people acting like whore’s and cheating with strange gods is very prominent:
Hos 1:1 The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.
Hos 1:2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
Originally posted by queenannie38
Alexander the Great
Interestingly enough Alexander the Great is mentioned very specifically in the book of Daniel, which is pretty neat. This bit is about the how Greece would overthrow the Persian Empire, kind of fitting to mention with 300 being the latest big box office draw right now…
Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Dan 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
Originally posted by queenannie38
And if it were a city, then why not consider that it is actually Babylon? Babylon is usually called Babylon in the bible...or Assyria or Ninevah.
Because, as I already tried to explain to you, the writer of Revelations had to use allusion to avoid naming Rome specifically. Babylon represents a very rich and opulent world power, which followed pagan gods, that was absorbed by the Roman Empire. The writers point is to show that Rome is also an opulent power that similarly was practicing idolatry. He had to do this without naming Rome by name, or he would have been put to death and his writings destroyed.
You don’t have to look very far into the Old Testament to find how idolatry became an issue among the Hebrews after their captivity in Babylon, and that this continued idolatry is what caused much of the strife for Israel. Hosea above is a prime example of this, but there are thousands of more examples in the Old Testament. Baal worship, and worship of the “Queen of Heaven” are two forms of idolatry that carried over from Babylon to Israel.
Originally posted by queenannie38
When we speak of a thing, such a place, group, or institution, as 'Great' it is invariably put before the noun, itself. Only when speaking of individuals do we put the 'Great' behind their proper name - with the article!
Revelations was not written in English, but rather in Greek. Therefore the rules of the English Language do not apply to it. Besides this the title also contains the word “Mystery” first, so its “Mystery Babylon the Great”.
Originally posted by queenannie38
Why?
It could be any one of the following: Byzantium, Babylon, Jerusalem, and Rome.
Or it could be something else altogether. It isn't like seven is a rarely used number in the bible! It means divine perfection!
Because the writer of Revelations wanted it to be understood who he was referring too, yet be vague enough not to name Rome directly. In order to do that he used the allusion to the “Seven Hills of Rome”. If you go back up I have already linked to sources on how commonly known that title of Rome was. Also John was writing many years after the book of Daniel, in the time of Rome, which did not exist when Daniel was written. So the author was using the same prophetic language used in Daniel, but showing that he has identified who the next beast in the succession is, without naming it outright.
You are correct though that seven normally means something different, perfection or completion.
[edit on 3/13/2007 by defcon5]
Originally posted by queenannie38
If John marveled at the whore with great admiration, and she was called 'the Great', sitting upon the symbol of divine perfection - the continued insistence of bible 'scholars' to turn this symbolism into something representing condemnation seems almost perverse.
Why? Because she is a whore?
Or because the religious men need a place to put those who they consider 'them' to their 'us?'
The angel actually reproves John for marveling after the beast. Why would john marvel? Most likely because he was a man and apt to temptation like all men are at the sight of something tempting.
Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
There is another interesting indicator in this verse that adds to the support of it being Rome, BTW. “The beast that was, and is not, yet is”, This means that the beast lived in Johns time, then something happens to it and it dies, yet it still lives on to the end of the world. This correlates with the “Deadly Wound” of the beast in Revelations 13, here:
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rome existed as the Roman Empire in the time of the writing of Revelations, even though the empire died, Rome continued to exist by handing over much of its power to the Pontifex Maximus under Corpus Juris Civilis as issued by Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Justinianus. This included such things as the empire pledging to commit military resources to the Pontifex for the eradication of herritics. Now this next bit is important: Justinianus I, released his first draft of the Corpus Juris Civilis on April 7, 529 AD, now that was only the first draft, we don’t have a an exact date for when it was finalized but it was roughly in 534 AD. Exactly when the Roman Empire ended seems to be much disputed and I have yet to find an exact date, but before it did so it basically handed off its power to the Ponitff’s who ruled through religion for roughly the next 1262 years.
So now lets jump into the way-back machine and move forward that 1262 years to see what happened:
Italian campaign of 1796-97
Days after his marriage, Bonaparte took command of the French "Army of Italy" on 27 March 1796, leading it on a successful invasion of Italy. At the Lodi, he gained the nickname of "The Little Corporal" (le petit caporal), a term reflecting his camaraderie with his soldiers, many of whom he knew by name. He drove the Austrians out of Lombardy and defeated the army of the Papal States. Because Pope Pius VI had protested the execution of Louis XVI, France retaliated by annexing two small papal territories. Bonaparte ignored the Directory's order to march on Rome and dethrone the Pope. It was not until the next year that General Berthier captured Rome and took Pius VI prisoner on 20 February. The pope died of illness while in captivity. In early 1797, Bonaparte led his army into Austria and forced that power to sue for peace. The resulting Treaty of Campo Formio gave France control of most of northern Italy, along with the Low Countries and Rhineland, but a secret clause promised Venice to Austria. Bonaparte then marched on Venice and forced its surrender, ending over 1,000 years of independence. Later in 1797, Bonaparte organized many of the French dominated territories in Italy into the Cisalpine Republic.
So roughly 1260 years later the Pope was dethroned, and power of self governance was granted back to the people of Italy. Does the number 1260 strike you at all? It should…
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Returning to the 3 1/2 times, which we now know represents 3 1/2 lunar years of 360 days each, using the same methodology as is used for the 70 weeks of Daniel we calculate it to actually represent 1260 literal years. So, Time, Times and half a Time in prophecy is really 1260 years!
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
42 months times 30 days per month on average = 1260 days…
The 1260 days/years is a very well know bit of prophetic language, just google it up and you’ll find thousands of sites on the topic.
Yet after all of this, Rome still exists, and even is a self ruling country again…
So the Beast who “was, and is not, yet is” of revelations 17, and the beast with the “deadly wound which healed” mentioned in revelations 13 are both also Rome. Rome who was a Political Power, who 1260 years later was removed from power, yet got her power back and still exists and will until the return of Christ.
Originally posted by queenannie38
Remember Nineveh DID repent, in full, when Jonah came with the warning from god! Christ is pretty straightforward regarding Nineveh/Babylon:
The problem here is that the “Queen of the South” which you are referring to is not Babylon, but rather the “Queen of Sheba”. The reason that we know who is referred too is because in 1Kings 10, we see this event occur.
1Ki 10:1 And when the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon concerning the name of the LORD, she came to prove him with hard questions.
1Ki 10:2 And she came to Jerusalem with a very great train, with camels that bore spices, and very much gold, and precious stones: and when she was come to Solomon, she communed with him of all that was in her heart.
1Ki 10:3 And Solomon told her all her questions: there was not any thing hid from the king, which he told her not.
The “Queen of Sheba” is commonly known to mean the Queen of Ethiopia. So Christ’s point is that both Nineveh and Ethiopia, who where judged harshly by God will stand in accusation of man in the end times. Basically they are saying “Hey! Look what happened to us, you think you’re going to get away without punishment, nah-ah”…
Originally posted by queenannie38
Why not apply the same standard of mental acumen to reading the bible as you would to, say, the Sunday Paper? The Spirit will lead us and reveal the truth - but yet if we don't even apply logic to what we read, we are not even helping ourselves be helped by God!
I believe that I do use proper logic to read the Bible. I have shown, using history, some of the most logical explanations to several of the more difficult topics in prophecy.
Not song lyrics, not the works of Crawley, just documented history.
[edit on 3/13/2007 by defcon5]
Originally posted by queenannie38
As these three schools are embraced by all mainline Christian religions, you can bet it’s a majority.
What does it matter if it is a 'majority?'
ESPECIALLY when you consider this statement:
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 12:9
The WHOLE world would be considered the majority, wouldn't it?
The whole world deceived. hmmm....
Common sense would tell a person that whatever idea is 'commonly accepted,' a claim of which is proven by agreement with the majority, is the deception!
Yep, good point and not one I disagree with. As a matter of fact, this is a big part of what never felt right to me about Futurism, as I mentioned above. Futurism is too well and widely known to be the correct school of prophecy, but it’s the most enticing for several reasons. First reason is that using Futurism, you can create a set of signs that very specifically show when the end is going to come, which is totally unbiblical. Secondly, is everyone seems to know this school, even total non-believers. Third, it’s exciting, it reads in that form like popular fiction, rather then a bunch of boring history.
In case you have not read the links about Futurism, its that one that everyone on this site talks about, with the future seven year tribulation period, the rapture, a rebuilt Jewish Temple Mount, and a single evil bad guy know as the Anti-Christ. Believing in this school specifically is what I mention when I mean the “Great Deception”. The reason why is because folks think they can plot out an exact 3.5 year period to be really good Christians during, and the rest of the time they can act like greedy, selfish, hypocrites.
Preterist’s beliefs run much closer to those of Historicists, with slight inaccuracies to throw folks off the trail of the Pontiff. Let me give you an example right from the “New American Bible for Cathoics”…
Commentary:
Rev 16, 19 the great city: Rome and the empire.
Rev 17, 1-6 Babylon , a symbolic name (v5) of Rome, is graphically described as the great harlet.
[now here is the bit where they alter it from historicism]
Rev 17,3 Scarlet beast: See note on REV 13 1-8. Blasphemous names: divine titles assumed by Roman emperors, see note on REV 13 5f.
So you see, they agree with historicism, right up until you get to the bit were it mentions the Church or the Pope, then they pawn it off on something else. According to your logic, this should be true: “The best lies are those that include mostly truth”…
Since Catholicism is the largest religion in the world technically I can get away with telling you That Rome being Babylon is the most widely accepted interpretation, but they don’t agree with me 100% obviously.
Now, and this bit is important: Historicism is supposed to be the second largest school of prophecy after the Catholic Churches Preterism, but its not!! Futurism has been used to usurp it! This has been done in a very tricky manner, and now a VAST number of people who should believe in Historicism don’t even know it exists. Historicism should be followed by all the mainline Protestant Religions, yet most protestant churches avoided teaching prophecy as it was too “Fire and Brimstone” for most practitioners fragile Poly-Anna ears. In the interim Zionist’s such as Hal Lindsey, Pat Roberts, and John Hagge, with the support of the media which is also dominated by Zionists, wrote all these books and movies based on the precepts of Futurism. The reason being that Futurism requires the Temple Mount be restored in order for the Anti-Christ to go there and declare himself god. When 2000 hit, and folks started getting interested in the topic of the end times, even most pastors had precious little training on the subject, and how many guesses do you want of what source they went and educated themselves from?!?
So now, all these folks that could have cared less about prophecy, as it was too negative and did not effect their lives, have been trained in a school of prophecy that even the group that created it, the Roman Catholic Church, has rejected, and these folks are running around preaching it like its gospel truth. At present, of the original Protestant churches who should believe in historicism, such as the Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Baptists, the only two churches I ever see actively teaching this school to their members are the Seven Day Adventists and the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Therefore yes, I believe it’s the great deception which deceives the whole world, and is on par with Satan’s other big deception which would be worldliness.
[edit on 3/13/2007 by defcon5]
Originally posted by thehumbleone
Originally posted by defcon5
The most commonly accepted interpretation of this verse is that the Woman is the Roman Catholic Church and the Beast is the Roman Empire. The beast has seven heads, which relates to the seven hills of Rome. There are even statues of the woman with the cup that the masons placed in some of the early Roman Cathedrals to indicate this relationship.
defcon5, WTF?
Hmm, I guess you're just another anti-Catholic punk spewing his anti-catholic hate.
Oh, and most commonly accepted by who?
Oh right, the protestants who follow the new testament canon chosen by the Roman Catholic Church.
[edit on 12-3-2007 by thehumbleone]
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