Yahweh is a DEMON

Wonderful here we go again with religious people trying to prove that religion is the real deal and the other side trying to prove them wrong.

Religion is circular argumentation. You can not prove the existence of God through words, nor can you prove anything in the Bible or any other religious text is true or real.

We can't even prove the existence of a UFO if we have real footage, because people will argue it is a professional production fake.

For any type of religion it is a faith based individual experience, you either have it or you don't for that particular belief.

In conclusion, people that are religious shouldn't try to prove anything to others with their personal beliefs and others that don't believe shouldn't mock the ones that believe in their particular faith.

Only time, awarness and wisdom will show us all.


[edit on 6-3-2007 by Realtruth]

Originally posted by BlueRaja

Think of it this way-

God has the following qualities- Perfection, all loving, just, all knowing, all powerful. He created man with free will. He wants for man to be in communion with him, but due to man's sinful nature he can't be in the presence of the Lord without the blood of Christ covering his sin.

After man's fall, he was out of communion with God, and that's where God's justice came into play(i.e. the wages of sin is death).

In the OT, the only way for man to be atoned for was by blood sacrifice by the priests of a perfect example of an animal(-generally a Lamb). This was only a temporary solution, as even a perfect example of an animal wasn't enough to atone for the sin of man.

Because of God's love he saw a solution- send his only Son, who was the "perfect Lamb" whose blood would be sufficient to atone man's sin, as the alternative was eternity away from the presence of God, in torment.

This is how the God of the OT and NT can be reconciled. Without Christ's blood all men deserve to die, but because of Christ's love he died in our place, allowing us to come back into communion with God if we choose to be in communion with him.

This is the "mainstream" view on the OT and NT and when I finally understood it I stopped going to church. If a God is "all knowing" and "all loving" then how could it fail to understand that free will would cause a fall? By the time I was 10 years old I knew that a child tempted would do bad things....free will and temptation are going to lead to broken rules. So for this "original sin" all of humankind is doomed. That isn't a very knowing or loving god!

If that is the Creator of the Universe then I gladly turn my back on It. If a sacrifice is needed to 'wash away my sins' then again I gladly turn my back on It. How about the "all powerful Creator" makes a system where we can learn from our mistakes and grow into perfect beings? Being 'saved' doesn't make us do much....learning to save ourselves, much better idea.

Thankfully I do believe in Love as being the ultimate Creator and the Bible to be a bunch of cool stories and mythology, about ancient times and people.

I think that to say YHWH is a demon is a bit inflamatory, but would make for a neat short story. It's a shame most extremely religious people can't poke fun at their own beliefs.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
However, it's a hard sell to someone who is, perhaps, already gotten their minds made up that God is not capable of being violent, et cetera..

For example, let me explain it to you this way...

The only God I have ever known is a loving, compassionate, forgiving God... When I read the OT, it has no familiarity to me. Therefore, I tend to deduct that they must be speaking of some different entitiy entirely than the one I know as God..

Eckhart Tolle has a cool way of explaining all the spiritual stuff in a way that is practical!

But there are different roads and paths that one must travel down on their own spiritual journey.

All roads lead to God. (evangelicals hate this...) but the truth is...if there is one God...and all come from God that has been made, then a road can lead nowhere else.

Like the "River of fire"...love is always pursuing you...no matter where you are...even in the hell you have created. (This is from Orthodox Christians...'pre catholic')

here is the link

Peace

dAlen

Originally posted by Realtruth

Wonderful here we go again with religious people trying to prove that religion is the real deal and the other side trying to prove them wrong.

Religion is circular argumentation. You can not prove the existence of God through words, nor can you prove anything in the Bible or any other religious text is true or real.

We can't even prove the existence of a UFO if we have real footage, because people will argue it is a professional production fake.

For any type of religion it is a faith based individual experience, you either have it or you don't for that particular belief.

People that are religious shouldn't try to prove anything to others with their personal beliefs and others that don't believe shouldn't mock the ones that believe in their particular faith.

Only time, awarness and wisdom will show us all.

I can't speak for motive of the original poster but he did make the decloration that "Yahweh is a demon." I cannot prove nor disprove his claim but I do think I can make an arguement that historically many of his followers have slaughtered in his name, and this could be suggestive of some sort of malevolence on the part of this "Yahweh."

The argument would only point out what is called "blind ignorance" in logic or philosophy jargon.

People believe what they want and follow what they want, and most of society does not follow a pattern of argumentative logic.

Just look at the world around you. No need to even look into the past.

Originally posted by befoiled
I can't speak for motive of the original poster but he did make the decloration that "Yahweh is a demon." I cannot prove nor disprove his claim but I do think I can make an arguement that historically many of his followers have slaughtered in his name, and this could be suggestive of some sort of malevolence on the part of this "Yahweh."

Originally posted by Abbadon777
then how could it fail to understand that free will would cause a fall? By the time I was 10 years old I knew that a child tempted would do bad things....free will and temptation are going to lead to broken rules. So for this "original sin" all of humankind is doomed. That isn't a very knowing or loving god!

If that is the Creator of the Universe then I gladly turn my back on It. If a sacrifice is needed to 'wash away my sins' then again I gladly turn my back on It. How about the "all powerful Creator" makes a system where we can learn from our mistakes and grow into perfect beings? Being 'saved' doesn't make us do much....learning to save ourselves, much better idea.

The point is that no matter what you do, you can't be perfect and that is why Jesus stands in the gap. What you describe as growing is not unlike Catholicism. Personally I prefer to know I am saved and work from my Salvation.

You refer to being Saved as a "sacrifice" in one sentence and "not making us do much" in another, so which is it? Do you really see being Saved as some big chore that will somehow strip you of something? Or an easy way to Heaven as you seem to claim in your contradiction?

No offense but you just seem angry and confused to me.

As I always say, my views are based on my beliefs and everyone has the right to believe what they wish.

Originally posted by saint4God
I disagree that this thread is about trying to understand. The thread title makes no question, the initial post only makes accusation, there are no questions. If the "seeker" truly wanted answers, there would be at least some question or attempt to understand. This is not the case. This is a "chorus thread" for those who want to sing along the same tune. So instead, I've asked questions. Instead, I'm asking others to think through their modes of thoughts. Anyone care to answer or objectively think through their claims?

Their are a few who have taken up the challenge to address the concerns of the original poster. We can see how "progressive" in consideration these ideas were given.

[edit on 6-3-2007 by saint4God]

Saint4God, what you are failing to see is that when people ask questions, they get the same answers they have always gotten. Without research and study, one cannot obtain the truth. You cannot continue to get the same answers, that often times don't work or don't seem right, and flaught them out as the "truth."

[edit on 6-3-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Oops, I thought the thread was about Yahoo

Oh, what the hey, while I am here I might as well immolate myself!

If everything is true about what people here say in regards to God Almighty, how does one account for something like the Ten Commandments? Ha! Gotcha!

Well, that'll be debated too, so I will dismiss it this once only.

Truth be told, that ultimate and absolute truth, true blue to the ends of the universe, that one, says we are the source of evil. And the source of salvation. I tend to agree on many levels with this insight.

Now hopefully I have killed this thread.

Originally posted by jbondo

The point is that no matter what you do, you can't be perfect and that is why Jesus stands in the gap. What you describe as growing is not unlike Catholicism. Personally I prefer to know I am saved and work from my Salvation.

You refer to being Saved as a "sacrifice" in one sentence and "not making us do much" in another, so which is it? Do you really see being Saved as some big chore that will somehow strip you of something? Or an easy way to Heaven as you seem to claim in your contradiction?

No offense but you just seem angry and confused to me.

As I always say, my views are based on my beliefs and everyone has the right to believe what they wish.

No offense taken! I'm not angry or confused (well I'm confused how so many people can believe in a literal interpretation of religion but I digress)

I wasn't very clear, sorry! My point is that (according to the Bible) God is perfect and all knowing, so It created humanity knowing we would be flawed. Then punished humanity for that flaw, that's just silly (to me).

My sarcasm didn't translate...the "sacrifice" of JC isn't much of a sacrifice. According to Gospel, he died for 3 days...how is that a sacrifice? and why would God require a sacrifice?! That is also just silly (IMO). This gap that JC stands in? Why is there a gap? It can only be because it's supposed to be there, so yet again silly to punish humanity for it.

My idea of being saved (which I don't think we require) wouldn't be a gift, when something is given as a gift it doesn't cause you to learn. Being saved shouldn't require anyones blood! It shouldn't require that you accept a dead guy as your one and only saviour (again silly). An infinitely wise and kind Creator would have a much better system (IMO). Why create an amazing universe, amazing people and toss out the half that don't 'accept Christ as their one and only....' It's just so....silly.

So silly that I have a hard time understanding how intelligent people can believe it to the point they would refuse others views. Thanks btw for noting falling into that crowd that doesn't accept any other view

Originally posted by Abbadon777


My sarcasm didn't translate...the "sacrifice" of JC isn't much of a sacrifice. According to Gospel, he died for 3 days...how is that a sacrifice?

Abbadon, you know what. I am pretty accepting of everyone's beliefs and I have some pretty weird ones of my own, but I have got to reply to this little comment that you made. How about we take you. Beat you until after, you will have been scarred for life even if you live. Put a thorn of crown of thorns upon your head and press it down just for good measure. Then, after you suffer for a little while from the pain, take you out and nail your hands and feet to a cross and let the crows gouge your eyeballs out.. Ah, that's no pain or sacrifice on your part. Now is it? Your comment was, I am sorry, but on the verge of idiocy.

[edit on 6-3-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 6-3-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 6-3-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

I'm sorry to have offended you.

Taken in the context of who JC was supposed to be...and what it was supposed to accomplish. Save EVERY HUMAN SOUL FOR ALL OF TIME THEREAFTER in comparison to the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS who have suffered just as much OR MORE in history for NOTHING.

Then really that isn't much of a sacrifice.... thousands of police, fire officers, and soilders have suffered just as much and WORSE without the knowledge that they were the "Son of God" or that their sacrifice would benefit the entire species of humanity. When they were burned, tortured, mained and killed they did it with just the strength of will of being a human doing what they believed in! I'd suffer that to save my family, much less all of humankind, and again to return to the topic at hand. What kind of God would require any of that? Not a loving one (IMO).

After reading this thread,
I now understand why Jesus said
only a few will make it to heaven.

Thanks for making it clear.

As a Gnostic, it should come as no surprise that I agree with the OP. I've been saying this for a long while now.

Originally posted by Telkar
As a Gnostic, it should come as no surprise that I agree with the OP. I've been saying this for a long while now.

I too have some gnostic tendencies

What the OP is claiming is nothing new.

Even Jesus was accused of having a demon in him by the pharisees.

Don't you have an original idea?

Originally posted by Abbadon777
I'm sorry to have offended you.

Abbadon,I do applaud you for apologizing.

No hard feelings on my part...

Being someone who does happen to believe that Christ was a real individual who suffered tremendously, your comment angered me. I will be honest.

However,I do understand were you are coming from,Abbadon.. Your comments made sense other than the one I called you out on.

Notice,I did not call you an "idiot" because your over-all post is not what I had a problem with. I called your statement "idiotic." I actually can even agree with you to an extent... It all does seem rather odd that God almighty would need to sacrifice his son... However, being someone who believes that it did occur, I am not going to disgrace it by saying that it "wasn't a sacrifice."

I wish that I could lay all of my beliefs out on the table and then perhaps people would understand me better. However, most likely I'd be labeled a "nut " and "heretic," and a whole host of other things.

Abbadon,I am sorry we had this little run in, but you just struck a very sensitive chord with me. I hope that you have no hard feelings due to my reaction because I certainly have none towards you.

May God bless...

Originally posted by thehumbleone

Even Jesus was accused of having a demon in him by the pharisees.

I am not even going to address this issue with you. You and I have had this conversation time and time again... I have made my case well... We just agree to disagree on what you are insinuating. I think we both know what you are insinuating... We both know that it has been a matter of debate on here many times... Expect someone else to be more aggressive with you on this issue. I just really don't have the time, energy or patience to discuss it with you right now., except to state that I truly think that what you are insinuating is false.

[edit on 6-3-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

No hard feelings at all Speaker!

This subject (and many on ATS) get people riled up. My own thoughts and the nature of this thread made my post a little more inflamatory than I would normally have wished.

But it's all good and eventually we'll all find the truth!

Best to you

(edited name, doh!)

[edit on 6-3-2007 by Abbadon777]

Originally posted by Abbadon777


But it's all good and eventually we'll all find the truth!

Best to you

Eventually, yes, all things will be revealed.

Before i address some points, perhaps some of you may appreciate this piece by Amitakh Stanford , entitled , "Is The Bible The Devil's Tool," located here : www.xeeatwelve.net...


----

Your challenging someones belief by using the Bible? Sorry, but you can't say one persons god is a demon, because both of you are using evidence out of context!

-shrunkensimon

I certainly have not used the biblical quotations out of context. The books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are largely the law of Yahweh, and of that law, i have highlighted some of the most grotesque and evil commandments. The quotation from 1 Samuel, Chapter 15, about genocide and infant massacre was not taken out of context at all, i actually started from the beginning of the chapter.

I know what this thread is not. It is not a fact-finding discussion with a serious approach towards finding what Yahweh is.

-saint4God

You are entitled to your opinions, but i clearly indicated why i know that "Yahweh is a demon," based on biblical excerpts.

wonder where in the bible does it say that god is a nice guy?

-whatuknow

Besides the slandering and manipulations of the work and teachings of Jesus in the New Testament, the book of Psalms is riddled with statements such as "But I am like an olive tree flourishing in the house of God; I trust in God's unfailing love for ever and ever (Psalm 52:8)."

God has the following qualities- Perfection, all loving, just, all knowing, all powerful. He created man with free will. He wants for man to be in communion with him, but due to man's sinful nature he can't be in the presence of the Lord without the blood of Christ covering his sin.

-blue raja

Do you realize how contradictory and plain evil this statement is? If he is all powerful, and "all loving," why would he create evil beings to exploit the innocent, who he claims that he "loves?" Why would he force every being in existence to suffer needlessly by the mechanisms of nature, decay, suffering, and death? Why would he, an all "loving," being, TORTURE Jesus, to somehow erase humanitie's debt of sin, the very sins that he supposedly created in the first place!?.


----


Torturing people to death, no matter what slant, spin, or rationalization you put on it, is evil. Anyone that believes that torture is not evil is either extremely programmed and deluded, or evil themselves. Yahweh condones and commands torture, muder, and theft, completely contradicting his own laws. Yahweh is TRUELY a DEMON.



The True God wants to be Loved, not feared. Fear is an evil tool of enslavement, and is heavily promoted by Yahweh.



The material creation, Yahweh's "kingdom," is inherintly evil. By it's very inherint mechanisms, it forces all beings to decay, suffer and die.

You must recognize and understand the difference between the physical body and the concioussness, and realize them as seperate entities. The spirit, or concioussness, exists independently of the physical shell entrapment. The material universe, Yahweh, and all evil, is to be destroyed PERMANENTLY.



I know in my heart that, very soon, everyone will get exactly what they deserve. It is our intentions which are important. Those who truly Love Truth will be justly rewarded.




[edit on 3/6/2007 by DerekOneSeven17]