The RUSSIAN perspective..

Some background info: stay with me folks, its necessary if you want to understand why i started this thread.
I was born and raised in the great city of Moscow, Russia. When i was 10 my family decided to immigrate to the USA. We tend to move quite often because my stepfather works in the aerospace industry. I have lived in such states as Alabama, Florida, and briefly in Colorado before leaving for Canada. To make a long story short, ive spent exactly half my life in Russia and the other half in the US and Canada (im 20 now) and there isnt a damn thing that i would change about it. Travelling to so many different places and interacting with so many different people has really opened my eyes. While still remaining a down to the bone Russian, i have truly come to appreciate the north-american way of life as well. Which is why it just kills me to see how much hatred there is between Americans and Russians. It friggin does. Our people have much more in common than our goverments would like us to believe. Because of my fascination with history ive started to study WW2 here in Canada. What ive learned from official American/British sources so far basically reflects upon the largely upheld view that America won that great conflict. From what ive seen, most people on ATS generally share that view. I do not want you to think that im saying Russia single handedly won that war. Hell no, it was a team effort. But what pisses me off so much is the combined effort of so many brain washed individuals to demerit Russias role in the Great Patriotic War. And this is what we teach our children. I remember an episode from a school i went to in Mississauga, Ontario. They got us all together in the gym at lunch. It was Remembrance Day, and an actor dressed in real looking WW2 stuff talked to the students. He concluded with the usual lest-we-forget statement and the numbers of casualties various countries suffered. He spoke of places ive never even heard of before, but do you know what he said about Russia? NOTHING. Not one word. As if those MILLIONS of people who died never even existed!!! I got up and left, although what i really felt like doing was taking that Lee-Enfield he had and shoving it up his ass, bayonet and all.

Please do not get me wrong: i do not want to undermine the part America, Britain, Canada and other countries played in that conflict. Neither do i want this to turn into one of those discussions where people can only resort to personal insults for their arguments. What i want is for you to try to understand the Russian perspective.

Read THIS and tell me what you think. If youre interested, go to the same site and see what Glantz has to say too.

[edit on 5-3-2007 by gone_wrong]

Yes - Russia was a major force in "winning" the WW2. Period. You can't argue the fact that majority of German casualities were inflicted in the Eastern Front.

But you really weren't the good guys, invasions of Baltic countires and the 1939 attack to Finland degraded Soviet Union just as bad aggressors as the Reich. And at least USA and Brittain did not opress and terrorize the areas they took for the next 50 years...

I never said that the Soviet Union was the "good guys". In fact, historians tend to think that Stalin was preparing to launch his own offensive, Germany just beat him to it. However he never did so thats besides the point. But how dare you compare the atrocities commited by the nazis to how the Soviet Union treated the countries it liberated. How does oppression and terrorism (which could still be argued) even compare to libenstraum and genocide
Oh, and surely you meant Poland If youre curious as to why SU invaded them maybe you should do some research, the answer is right on the surface. Something tells me you didnt even read my link..

Your link conviniently forgets to mention the invasions SU did BEFORE germans attacked it.

And no i didn't mean Poland i meant Baltic countries: Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia, they lost their independency and suffered the 50 years of terror. But ofcourse back at Moscow they said SU Liberated those countries... when trains that one went to Nazi camps turned back east and transported thousands of people to siberia.

As for the reason of invasion: Comitern and the spread of global communism ?

Ps. Soviet camps took more lifes than Nazi concentration camps.

Originally posted by northwolf
Your link conviniently forgets to mention the invasions SU did BEFORE germans attacked it.

Youre missing the point. I asked for input regarding the stereotypical bashing of everything Russian since the Great War, not more hating.

Originally posted by northwolf
the 1939 attack to Finland degraded Soviet Union just as bad aggressors as the Reich.

Originally posted by northwolf
And no i didn't mean Poland

If you refer to the conflict that started WW2 you would be talking about the invasion of Poland, not Finland.

Originally posted by northwolf
Soviet camps took more lifes than Nazi concentration camps.

Is that so? Care to provide any evidence?

Originally posted by northwolf
As for the reason of invasion: Comitern and the spread of global communism ?

Ah, so we keep coming back to the same question. Why oh why did Russia invade Poland and Finland? There must be a reason eh? Heres a "little" hint: WW1

[edit on 5-3-2007 by gone_wrong]

We can't forget that it was the bravery of those last 100,000 outside moscow that checked the Germans, and the same who were first to the German capital.

Gone_wrong I was hoping someone of russian origin would post something like this, because I am also kind of sick of all the legit weaponry threads that turn into America-Russia arguments.

I hope that this thread opens some eyes on this forum. Perhaps instead of another cold war we can have some form of peace.

[edit on 5-3-2007 by BlackWidow23]

I guess im odd, but in some ways I admire what the russians have done since WW2. Not the gulags and such mind you and I think the russian people hated stalin alot fo those things, but im talking about the early space age.

It was russians who launched sputnik and yuri gagarin, BTW I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I had an extremely liberal teacher telling us that john glenn was the first man in space which was wrong. I told her repeatedly that it was yuri gagarin . Anyway, I also admire their weapons industry. And of course, you cant forget stolichnaya vodka

Anyway, you have to remember that most people in the US and Canada are western european decended, not eastern. I would imagine there are very few slavs in the US and Canada and the education is probably driven to teach those who are western europeans with grandparents that fought in the war.

Originally posted by BlackWidow23
Perhaps instead of another cold war we can have some form of peace.

I truly hope so too

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
BTW I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I had an extremely liberal teacher telling us that john glenn was the first man in space which was wrong. I told her repeatedly that it was yuri gagarin

Hahahahahah Reminds me of my geography teacher here in Montreal. She kept saying that Canada is the largest country in the world since the break-up of the Soviet Union. All my efforts to persuade her that its actually still Russia were in vain. I finally had to turn the attention of our class to the last page of the book where all the sizes and populations of countries were listed. Ah good times good times

I do agree, Russia is completely washed away in American history books about World War 2. I too, never even thought about the Eastern front until I started researching World War 2 independently at a young age. This is truly a shame, the Eastern front is such an amazingly interesting campaign. Two of the largest modernized armies this world has ever seen, fought a brutal war of attrition to the last bullet, last man. It’s estimated that roughly 20 million Russians fell during World War 2, and yet they emerged as powerful as ever. The smaller more elite German units attempting a war of speed tactics, were countered by a massive horde of men and steel that rained on the German lines in simple formation, the horde one.

Truly amazing when you think about it, Churchill said shortly after Barbarossa that he expected a quick collapse of the Soviet Union, instead it resulted in the destruction of Berlin and Soviet shock troops storming the Fuhrer Bunker.

I have a strong respect for the Russian people, I can’t imagine many other civilizations not surrendering to such an onslaught during the early years of the war.

Now on another hand, I think Stalin put the Soviet Union into a downward spiral of disgust shortly after World War 2. He took his own citizens, his own soldiers, even his veterans that wore the Stalingrad insignia to gulags and had them brutally killed due to their ethnicity. Few people realize, that Stalin had more of his citizens killed, than Adolf Hitler sent to concentration/labor camps.

I have a deep respect for Russian people, but their Government past and present, leads MUCH to be desired.

gone_wrong
First, we here have been taught relatively unbiased history lessons, so i agree with you about the soviet input in ww2. But as all we know Molotov made a deal that divided europe between USSR and Germany. This deal then "made it allright" for USSR to start invading it's neighbours, while germany took poland... so the start of the war stems from expansionist desires of both madmen: Hitler and Stalin.

Out of curiosity:
Tell me what did they tell you at Moscow about Winter War '39?

What many Americans and Western Europeans (even those who know about Russia's true part in the war) think, is that the War on the Eastern Front was one between two evil dictators, both with thirst for blood and land, and that USSR's victory is undermined by Stalin's evil intents. Look at all the commotion now in the Baltics, with people wanting to take down the monuments to Soviet soldiers who died in WWII.

Reality is- Russian people (and others from around the USSR) were fighting to preserve their land, their freedom (Nazis aimed to make them slaves), and their future. The men on the battlefield were not fighting for Stalin. They were fighting for their motherland, and against Nazi aggresion in Europe. They didn't fight to occupy the Baltics and Eastern Europe- they fought to liberate Europe from the Nazis. Stalin and his minions occupied the lands.

And about the occupation of East Germany and Hungary and other Nazi sympathizers (not to be confused with Poland- which truly was an unfair occupation)- Russia lost so many people and so much of its history was destroyed, that Russians saw occupation of aggressor nations as justified, especially Eastern Germany. Century old churches and palaces burned down in USSR, museums plundered, hell Belarus alone had practically 100% of its historical architecture destroyed. There is no way Germany can ever repay Russia for everything Russia lost, not that it should after the fall of the Third Reich. Sure occupation from 1945 to 1989 was not "right", but when 20-25 million of your people are dead your instinct for retribution will take over.


But what is taught in American schools is pure disinformation on this subject. I don't care whose side you favor, history is history, and denying a major part of it is not right. And the fact is that without Russia, the Third Reich would probably have never fallen, even given the combined efforts of the allies. 70%+ of German troops (plus hundreds of thousands of sympathizers from Eastern Europe like Romania and Hungary) and 80% of German war machinery were concentrated on the Eastern Front. Imagine if all that might was centered in Normandy and Italy, and Russia was neutral. It might have given Germany enough time to develop nuclear weapons, and God knows what that would have led to.



And northwolf- about the Winter War: it is still widely debated part of history. I do not agree with Stalin's invasion in 1939, I admire Mannerheim and his hadling of both wars, and outright refusal to attack Leningrad and advance further in WWII, plus he was a talented general. Technically the Karelian isthmus is historically Finish land, but Finland was not really a defined sovereign nation untill 1917. It was under Swedish reign for many centuries, and I am not sure how much autonomy it had. After that it was a part of Russian Empire, where it had a large degree of autonomy. But all that time it was under direct or indirect control of outside powers. Stalin saw the attempted invasion of 1939, as a way of restoring USSR to Emperial Russian dimensions, plus Finland had supporters of Bolshevism. Vyborg was then seen as a Russian city, even if it wasn't.

Again- this was one of Stalin's idiotic crusades. Russian schools teach it this way, after all Stalin and his rule was largely discredited after Khruschev came to power. My distant uncle died in that war and I heard from Russians how unnecessary and senseless that war was. I lived in Karelia most of my life and I know its Finnish history.

[edit on 6-3-2007 by maloy]

Originally posted by ShooterSix
Two of the largest modernized armies this world has ever seen, fought a brutal war of attrition to the last bullet, last man. It’s estimated that roughly 20 million Russians fell during World War 2, and yet they emerged as powerful as ever. The smaller more elite German units attempting a war of speed tactics, were countered by a massive horde of men and steel that rained on the German lines in simple formation, the horde one.

While somewhat true, that is still a generalisation and could be debated. Personally i still havent made up my mind on Russian tactics so i wont get into that.

Originally posted by ShooterSix
Now on another hand, I think Stalin put the Soviet Union into a downward spiral of disgust shortly after World War 2. He took his own citizens, his own soldiers, even his veterans that wore the Stalingrad insignia to gulags and had them brutally killed due to their ethnicity. Few people realize, that Stalin had more of his citizens killed, than Adolf Hitler sent to concentration/labor camps.

Ethnicity had nothing to do with it. Most people ended up in those colonies for political reasons. I agree, its a shame that so many good soldiers who wound up as POWs through no fault of their own, as well as honest citizens were sent to labor camps.

[edit on 6-3-2007 by gone_wrong]

northwolf -
Obviously it is not right to go about invading other countries. Even Stalin could not have done that just because he "felt like it", there must have been a pretty good reason. If you want to understand that reason you must first look at the history of these nations. I dont think that i have to tell you about the animosity between Russia-Poland/Finland that goes back for centuries. But lets talk about more recent events. Look at how Poland and Finland supported the white movement during the Russian revolution in every concievable way. Needless to say that they were against the red communist movement. Check out what these countries did during the Russian civil war right after the revolution. Finally look into the Russo-Polish war (1919-1921) where soviet soldiers were this close to taking Warsaw, and the role Baltic states played in WW1. It becomes obvios that Stalin simply wanted revenge. What he did was justifiable in his eyes, but of course that doesnt make it right.
I left Russia before i ever had the chance to study the Winter War or any others, but if youre interested i could ask my friends. Though im sure that that chapter in history was skipped over in Russian textbooks. I read things that suggest the Soviets shelled the hell out of their own men to give them a much needed excuse to start the war. Truly disgraceful.

I think you have to think for your selfs on this issue. I do not mind the russian ppl. I think they are good hard working ppl just trying to making an honest living, as is anyone.

Often times I think we let our respected governments do the thinking for us. Its sorta like, just because they threaten their interest they must threaten mine. And to a degree its true, you have corrupt governments no matter where you go. Greed and power controlling all of them. But we shouldn't generalize and stereotype so much. People really need to start being able to think for themselves.

The governments are not always wrong...but, more often then not, they're not always right...



[edit on 023131p://5203pm by semperfoo]

I will talk about the only thing I can think of besides Vodka that has come out of Russia..

The women, how many supermodels that produce super drool have come out of there lately. There are some major hotties that are being aloud to come out from all those big woolly coats.

Other than that you guys don't have much to about.

Just when you guys were starting to get cool, and not trying to run the world into a communist police state you go and elect Putin. My personal anti-christ.

From the Russian perspective how many Russians died so Stalin and Lenin could make everyone equal over the Czars of the "Motherland"

I take that back I personally really like the story of Vasiliy Zaitsev. One of the greatest snipers of the history of the world.

[edit on 6-3-2007 by Royal76]

Originally posted by maloy
Look at all the commotion now in the Baltics, with people wanting to take down the monuments to Soviet soldiers who died in WWII.

I was deeply disgusted when i first heard that news. For the sake of being objective, i can understand how these monuments stand as a symbol of oppression to those people. So go ahead and destroy the statues of Lenin, Stalin, whoever else was responsible for it. Noone will mind. But why level the ones that stand for the soldiers, the simple people who lost sooo much fighting for your very freedom. I digress..

Originally posted by maloy
Reality is- Russian people (and others from around the USSR) were fighting to preserve their land, their freedom (Nazis aimed to make them slaves), and their future. The men on the battlefield were not fighting for Stalin. They were fighting for their motherland, and against Nazi aggresion in Europe. They didn't fight to occupy the Baltics and Eastern Europe- they fought to liberate Europe from the Nazis. Stalin and his minions occupied the lands.

THANK YOU

Originally posted by maloy
And about the occupation of East Germany and Hungary and other Nazi sympathizers (not to be confused with Poland- which truly was an unfair occupation)- Russia lost so many people and so much of its history was destroyed, that Russians saw occupation of aggressor nations as justified, especially Eastern Germany. Century old churches and palaces burned down in USSR, museums plundered, hell Belarus alone had practically 100% of its historical architecture destroyed. There is no way Germany can ever repay Russia for everything Russia lost, not that it should after the fall of the Third Reich. Sure occupation from 1945 to 1989 was not "right", but when 20-25 million of your people are dead your instinct for retribution will take over.

Right on.

Why do you keep letting the worlds biggest murders run the country???

www.abovepolitics.com...

educate yourself on the deaths of those who oppose Vladimir Putin

Originally posted by semperfoo
The governments are not always wrong...but, more often then not, they're not always right...

Great phrase, i gotta remember that one

Originally posted by Royal76
I will talk about the only thing I can think of besides Vodka that has come out of Russia..

The women, how many supermodels that produce super drool have come out of there lately. There are some major hotties that are being aloud to come out from all those big woolly coats.

Other than that you guys don't have much to about.

Thx for the compliment. Women and Vodka are definitively among the greatest of Russian assets; right up there with our land, natural resources and AKs
Seriously tho, thanks for trying to remain objective. You want to talk about Russian accomplishements? OK how about:

The biggest plane, chopper, cruise missile etc - russians have a thing for builing em large
Some of the best writers, poets, engineers this planet ever had
The ass kicking we dished out to Napoleon and Hitler
The periodic table of elements
The first satellite in space
The first man in space
The first space station
The first icebreaker
The first radio

..right off the top of my head

Originally posted by Royal76
From the Russian perspective how many Russians died so Stalin and Lenin could make everyone equal over the Czars of the "Motherland"

A hellova lot. But were not talking about that

Originally posted by Royal76
I take that back I personally really like the story of Vasiliy Zaitsev. One of the greatest snipers of the history of the world.

Yup, he was a great man

Originally posted by Royal76
Why do you keep letting the worlds biggest murders run the country???

Myself, i do not agree with the somewhat authoritarian way Putin handles things. But it would be stupid to ignore how much better he made my country during his presidency. I will even go further to say that he did as good a job as anyone else might have done, if not better. His reforms undeniably raised economics, living conditions etc. during his reign. And please dont give me that whole anti Putin stuff. You dont understand the peculiarities of Russian politics. Lol they even made a wicked movie called just that))) Things work differently in Russia than they do in the West. Everything in your links is quite disputable. Alexander Litvinenko did not die because he was opposed to Putin. If they wanted him gone he would have died a much simpler, faster death. Yet nobody gave a rats ass about him. He really started to go off about the president when he was on his deathbead, hell why not get some publicity before you die. Mass murderer? DO NOT get me started on Bush. In any case you dont have to worry, Mr Putin wont be elected for another term.