Ancient People smarter than Us

This is an update to my old thread "Why are we the only civilization?"
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I am placing this here because it does touch upon the original subject, yet it brings to light some other aspects. Also, I am hoping not to have a religious debate in this one!

I will be briefly discussing a couple topics, hoping that others will be added. Knowing that some of these have been discussed before, they have not been talked about in this context (ie, that there is a cycle of advanced civilizations, then decline, then advancement again).

The first is the scientist and inventor Heron. Created the first coin operated device, automatic water machines, the first steam engine (2000 years before the Industrial Revolution), and on and on.

www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk...

and secondly, the Antikythera Mechanism, a device used for navigation by tracking star movements. It used a multitude of gears and clockworks... many centuries before gear-operated clocks were invented.

www.math.sunysb.edu...

Many other ancient puzzles and mysterys can be found here at:

www.world-mysteries.com...

I am still sticking with my theory that the world has known several advanced/modern societies, that due to war or celestrial events, perished, faced decline and stagnation, then had to re-develope. I am not giving credit that aliens are responsible for every developement made by man... we as a race are much smarter than that! Aliens CANNOT be made into the conspiracy scapegoat everytime something unexplained is brought to surface!

With the numerous subjects discussed on "World Mysteries", the advancement of the Antikythera Mechanism, the sheer brillance of Heron... how can we not wonder?

My eight year old son said it best, after watching the Heron special on History channel... "How were those people so much smarter than us?"

[Edited on 22-12-2003 by soothsayer]

Originally posted by soothsayer

I am still sticking with my theory that the world has known several advanced/modern societies, that due to war or celestrial events, perished, faced decline and stagnation, then had to re-develope. I am not giving credit that aliens are responsible for every developement made by man... we as a race are much smarter than that! Aliens CANNOT be made into the conspiracy scapegoat everytime something unexplained is brought to surface!

I agree with you...Yes, I do. There have been great cycles.

I'm LOVING that world mysteries site Soothsayer... been digesting all day.

But I've got to tell you, the articles on modern man's failed efforts to duplicate even a fraction of some ancient feats: Like erecting 400 ton monoliths or building the Great Pyramids... doesn't just point to our ancestors being smarter.

I mean an army of Einsteins, jackhammers, bulldozers and the most modern of cranes can't do what some ancient peoples did.

I know you want to avoid the Alien impact theory, but we need a third option here.

www.world-mysteries.com...

I think people are becomming dumber. The technology that we use allows us not to think about lots of things. We have calculators to do math. We have computers to crunch numbers that the caclulator can't. We have TV, which dulls the mind.

No one knows what to do when the power goes out. We can't function without our electronics.

There are many things that we take for granted in this world, where if we did not have it, what would we do?

What would you do without your car? Complain? Walk? Think of an ingenious way to travel? I am guessing complain.

It follows that a technologically advanced alien race would be mouthbreathing ignards.

Evolved into feebish shadows of their former humanoid form with spindly arms and legs and weakened lungs all supported by a mere shell of a brain that can't think to do more than push buttons.

Ya think?

Originally posted by RANT
It follows that a technologically advanced alien race would be mouthbreathing ignards.

You know, there are days when I espouse that particular theory. It does have a certain charm, doncha think?

(several tacky remarks were censored in the making of this post.)

Originally posted by crayon
I think people are becomming dumber.

I blaim spell cecker for the disintigration of my spelling scills.

I like this... my oldest kid is in second grade, and they are already being taught computers. I'm trying to teach him how do do math without a calculator... hell, trying to teach him how not to rely too heavily on technology!

My sister-in-law is a frshman in high school... and she needs a calculator for algebra. What? When I was in school, if we were caught with a calc, it'd be taken away, and assignment re-done!

Mentally, we as a whole are in decline. In my aforementioned thread, we did discuss things along this subject... how if there was a world-wide destructive event, how we would not be able to rebuild. Even the highest ranking engineer cannot duplicate/ reproduce an electric generator, a mechanic cannot make an airplane... and on and on.

How do the ancient people differ from us? Granted, education wasn't for the masses, thus making the great minded few and far in between... but those few excelled in such a wide area. Even the inventions and ideas they had were not limited to the technology on hand... Heron had ideas for things not "invented" for thousands of years. But what was different was their willingness to expand, to not be limited by their days standards.

Which brings me back full circle... what if there had been a culture or society that enveloped these "radical" ideas? It was said that Heron was just 1 small step from creating the Industrial Revolution... the only thing that stopped him was the need to make personal life easier on a grand scale. That was 2000 years ago. Even closer to our age would be Divinci. Could there not have been someone earlier than these two? I would agrue yes. The people as a whole do not have to be smart... just the leaders, the planners... the people would follow.

We've seen the odd objects like the minature gold airplane, the Antikythera mechanism, unexplained polished crystal disks, Reis maps, batteries, unrusting iron towers, screws in coal mine walls... the list goes on and on. It is a known fact (I'll find a link later) showing that with the two predominate humanoids in Europe (Cro-Mag and Neanderthal), the Cro Mag had a larger brain cavaity... and studying the ridges (whatever that means) shows that they were more intelligent than our ancestors.

Myths and legends speak of men who were gods, and lost cities/ civilizations of unspeakable powers. We've uncovered areas of India and Arabia with unaccountable high levels of radiation. We've uncovered the cities buried beneath cities beneath cities... with the lowest (and oldest) being of higher quality than the newer ones.

Just imagine the secrets we could have learned about had not the Library of Alexandria burned!

I am not going to waste your time, or post/thread space, with my explaination as how such a decline and re-evolution could take place (hint, first link!). But it makes sense! And, intentionally or not, it is happening again, but this time science is our tool of destruction (RANT- I agree).

We will get to the point of no return... when machine will do our thinking, or living, for us. We will either be replaced with machines via Matrix or Terminator, or we will have to shut off our wonders, and then re-evolve.

Geez, getting off subject... again. Oh well.

With us, as a species, having gone from swords to nuclear fusion in, what, 500 years(?)... "modern" science in the same amount of time... and thousands of years squatting, doing nothing? Mankind has been around for millions of years... our "modern" people only a short portion of that. There would still be plenty of time to have a civilization develope, disappear, and come back, many times over, if they developed in the same 500 years we had!

The first link I provided is a good one, there are many fine ideas for the pros and cons, and I would recommened anyone to read it (just ignore the 1-2 page relgious debate... geez).

I am for alien contact. I do believe the Sumerian/Babylon gods were aliens. But I don't believe that everything has to be accounted to them.

There is another angle to look at this subject. The sheer number of people that are living on this world.

What if the number of people in the world that are of the genious level have not changed? The percentage of those people 2000 years ago would be much higher. But now, it is small.

Maybe Rant is correct in the body type of the 'grays'. Large brain cavity, small frame. Also, what if the only ones that survive are the intelligent ones? Making the number of their race small.

I used to be good at math in my head. Since I do not have to use that part of my brain, it has become difficult to do certain types of math. So I need a calculator.

Also, due to technology, certain things have become quick. Buying a house? Buying a car? Getting credit? How long would some of these things take without the technology behind them.

Its a catch-22. Technology is great, but I think in the long run its going to hinder us.

I work with computers every day. I help build the some of the fastest computers on earth. But these computers are not designed to do mundane things. They are designed to solve problems that would take many lifetimes to calculate by hand. So in that sense technology is helpful.

But why should I balance my checkbook by hand without a calculator? I have things to do and don't have time to do that. So in that sense I think technology is hindering us.

We have been raised to be stupid.
We are not taught how to survive on our own.. we are taught how to consume products built by machines.
Any given person does not know how to make pigment or fabric although they could sew fabric that is premade together... Anyone can turn on a computer but few know how to build one and among those that think they do, ... almost all do not have the metal skills to build the components needed to make one.

do you see where I am going?

The more we know.. the less we know..

We are not INDEPENDENT or INTELLIGIENT... by any means.

Well, I wasn't espousing the theory that Aliens are retarded per se.

But rather from our perspective, they may seem that way. Some of our most acclaimed minds thought in abstracts few of us can even comprehend. The physical de-evolution theory I floated has the contrast of a huge, computer-like brain...not so much logical, but of superior will. What difference does a mathematical equation make, when you can 'think' around gravity. for example.

I think the Greys, for example, would have very low SAT scores but that doesn't mean they couldn't brainwash Einstein. I dunno.

But the loss of skills analogy for me, attests more to our aspiration to the abstract. I'm a victim of it. Been in Advertising, marketing and public relations for years... now this economy is a biotch; what am I going to do? Learn to fix cars?

soothsayer,

now why can't people like your son become scientists!

smart boy!

soothsayer, excellant topic and links.

Most likely Earth was invaded several times. Whether from underground or from space. Humans were created as worker slaves and perhaps left behind to fend for themselves.

There is currently a hierarchy/ruling class that deals with specific bloodlines. Earths original human population has been gradually slaughtered off and replaced. Bush(s), Clinton(s), Blair and Putin are all good examples of this ruling class. Look into their eyes for a clue.

Granted that there may have been some smart inventors in ancient times and a few brilliant philosophers.
However to jump forth and conclude that because of this that people in ancient times were smarter may be innacurate.

For one thing People like Archimedes,Aristotle, Plato,Plotinus
and others were only a tiny fraction of the entire population
as a whole.
It doesn't mean that the majority of their countrymen were
of similar brilliance.
People back in ancient times probably did not have as much access to libraries,the media, and universities like
we do.
I suspect that many people in ancient times were probably
illiterate too.
But then I might be wrong about that.

One can't generalize the intelligence level of ancient people as a whole by merely a few brilliant examples.
This I'm sure I can be right about.

Originally posted by yogibear
For one thing People like Archimedes,Aristotle, Plato,Plotinus and others were only a tiny fraction of the entire population as a whole.

It doesn't mean that the majority of their countrymen were of similar brilliance.

Good point... let me comment by adding this: in the past, there were fewer people, as well. So, statisticly, then, since there are a great deal more people living today, we should have a larger number of persons (modern) to draw from...

Let's see... Edison, Tesla, Einstien, Hawkins... umm... ahh... anyone know anybody else we can add to this?

I understand where you are coming from. In those ancient days, there was no education for the masses (at least, in our sense of the word). There probably was more illiteracy (but seeing how my 14 year old sister-in-law writes and talks... and her friends...). You may even want to add life expectancy, too... can't develope as many great ideas in 30 years as you can in 50 or 70. So yes, the ancients should have been, for the lack of a better word, dumb by our standards... but this wasn't the case.

I am not intending that ALL of the ancient people were smarter than us, using the examples you gave. Even today, with the workings of Tesla to Hawkins, with our level of education, are we as smart as they are? NO. Same thing with the past... the masses will always be behind the smarter ones.

Maybe I was over-reaching. Maybe the ancient people were "smarter" because there was less in the world. It would be very easy to invent something, or have an origional idea, when there is nothing in the world... unlike today, where you have to research the patent offices, only to find your idea was done by 20 people before you in the past 100 years.

Or maybe the "alien contact" theorists are right, that the ancient people were idiots, and only the help of aliens brought us from the caves. This would explain the great role religion played in their lives, and how their dieties were usually always present to help or offer aid.

Or (again), people back then were smarter because they were not constrained by modern thought or society. It would be a lot easier to be a free thinker and take chances when you are not required permits, special lisences, zoning regulations... not to mention the neighbors reactions.

Have we, upon becoming more civilized, more modern, lost something of our inquisative nature? Have we been pounded into believing we are nothing without a college degree, thus limiting ourselves? Or is it that we rely too heavily on technology?

I say the ancient world was smarter than us for many reasons. Maybe smarter is too harsh a term... perhaps open-minded to new ideas would be better.

It doesn't even have to be with the odd artifacts discovered, or the inventors or scientists. Just look at the structures they left behind.

Whole cities unearthed (or atop mountians) that predate anything resembling "settlement building society". Roman archways, bridges... hell, even the Collisium... still standing, yet our sidewalks have cracks and grass growing from them in a year or too... house foundations sinking away, crumbling into nothing.

The ancient people saw a world full of mystery, and sought to understand it. We see... the world full of others who (we hope) will do things.

Maybe that is the difference after all.

Straying a little bit from the original topic, but� It is can be difficult comparing current intellectual achievements with those in the past. I have taken part in similar discussions before and there is a factor that many seem to overlook.

What exactly do you mean by �ancient� or �the past� ?

As an example, look at the four names mentioned in yogibear�s post

For one thing People like Archimedes,Aristotle, Plato,Plotinus and others were only a tiny fraction of the entire population as a whole.
It doesn't mean that the majority of their countrymen were of similar brilliance.

He makes a good point, but let�s take it a little further and look at when each of these men lived.

Plato 427 - 347 BC
Aristotle 384 - 322 BC
Archimedes 287 - 212 BC
Plotinus 205 - 270 AD

This is a span of almost 700 years!

My point is that some can mistakenly take hundreds, and even thousands of years worth of civilization and lump it up collectively as �the past� then compare it with the 20, 30, 40 years of life they have experienced. Look at all the brilliant thinkers that lived in �the past�. Why don�t we have more like them �today�? Well, to do a fair comparison against the four men listed above, we would have to look at a similar time frame � from today back to the year 1310 AD or thereabouts.

Lets see.... Curie, Planck, Goddard, Hubble, Schrodinger, Turing, Veneziano, Bohr, Fermi, Oppenheimer, Heisenberg, Millikan, Yukawa, Dirac, Feynman, Charney, Revelle.... and that�s only going back about 100 years.

The Great Pyramids were built around 2560 BC, the Parthenon was started around 447 BC � that�s a span of 2113 years.
The Coliseum was started in 70 AD � that�s only 1934 years from today. Is the Coliseum part of �the past� or �today� ?


As for the loss of certain skills in our society - yes it is true, but this has been happening for a long, long time. It is a result of specialization and the fact that there is literally way too much knowledge now for any one person to grasp even a fraction of it. I work on a computer and of course I couldn�t build one from scratch. The time it would take learning how to prospect for metals, mine, refine, form them�. Find oil, refine it, construct the needed plastics�. Head to the beach, get some sand, learn how to blow a glass CRT screen�. It would all take more time than I have years under my belt. Someone else does know how to do each one of these things though, and does them or has built a machine that can do them more efficiently. As a member of today�s society, I do not need to have these skills, these are all areas that other specialize in and provide them as a service for which they are compensated. And this is not just a phenomenon of recent years�

Did Plato have a flock of sheep that he sheared himself, then scour, comb, and weave the wool to make those nice white robes we always picture him wearing?
Did Plotinus know thing one about cutting and shaping and fitting the stone with which the Coliseum was constructed?

Sure, I couldn�t make my own clothes, or hunt for or grow my own food�. But I�m also very happy that I don�t have to spend 60-70% percent of my time doing JUST that and ONLY that in order to survive.


[Edited on 1-1-2004 by Donner]

Originally posted by Donner
What exactly do you mean by �ancient� or �the past� ?

look at when each of these men lived.

Plato 427 - 347 BC
Aristotle 384 - 322 BC
Archimedes 287 - 212 BC
Plotinus 205 - 270 AD

Lets see.... Curie, Planck, Goddard, Hubble, Schrodinger, Turing, Veneziano, Bohr, Fermi, Oppenheimer, Heisenberg, Millikan, Yukawa, Dirac, Feynman, Charney, Revelle.... and that�s only going back about 100 years.

Did Plato have a flock of sheep that he sheared himself, then scour, comb, and weave the wool to make those nice white robes we always picture him wearing?

Did Plotinus know thing one about cutting and shaping and fitting the stone with which the Coliseum was constructed?

*On the dates... true... but the first 3 are seperated by 200 years. The middle two only 40 years.

*How many of the scientists you mentioned wer "cross-trained" in various aspects of, well, science and all it accompases... or were they single-minded, relying on others to do the mining and forging?

*Plato may not have had sheep... but I'm sure he knew someone who did. By the way... I know how to shear and prepare wool, spin it and dye it... but not knit.

*Plotinus actually did know a thing or two about stone masonry. Just like today, would you higher somebody who didn't know the job to do the job?

I would say that the difference between ancient and past is... umm... good question... let me think. I know what I want to say, it's just a matter of finding the words.

For arguments sake, I would say "past" would be from between the Dark Ages/Renesounce (forgive spelling) to the Industrial Revolution... ancient would go beyond that.

reason being is that they didnt have TV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

8)


Sign. Future Wolrd Dictator!

Hm..I don't know about that one. Perhaps in some aspects they were, but in others they weren't. Take the Internet for an example. Back then, it would takes months to send a message across seas, now it takes a couple of seconds to transmit the data. Who is smarter in that aspect? Us or them? lol I think you get my point. The Internet was a HUGE invention, it has affected the way we live in great amounts, communication, discussion, selling and buying, marketing, news, etc etc. I believe we are smarter than them. But, you sort of contradict yourself there sooth. You said "He invented a star-tracking device that used gears and clockworks before gears and clockworks were invented" That is impossible. Obviously the gears and clockworks WERE invented, or he would not have been able to make them. See what I am saying here?

-wD

well if they are so smart how come they arent around as a civ then? we seem to be doing alright the horrible lot that we are