Blackwater Grizzly APC

Blackwater mercs are not what it seems is pleanty of complain on the way they do their use of force in Iraq and they are also run by christian fundamentalist.

Controversy "America's Holy Warriors"
Erik Prince (bio) is "the secretive, mega-millionaire, right-wing Christian founder of Blackwater, the private security firm that has built a formidable mercenary force in Iraq," Chris Hedges wrote December 31, 2006, in Truthdig. Prince "champions his company as a patriotic extension of the U.S. military. His employees, in an act as cynical as it is deceitful, take an oath of loyalty to the Constitution. These mercenary units in Iraq, including Blackwater, contain some 20,000 fighters. They unleash indiscriminate and wanton violence against unarmed Iraqis, have no accountability and are beyond the reach of legitimate authority. The appearance of these paramilitary fighters, heavily armed and wearing their trademark black uniforms, patrolling the streets of New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, gave us a grim taste of the future. It was a stark reminder that the tyranny we impose on others we will one day impose on ourselves."

www.sourcewatch.org...

People like this are very dangerous and something that Americans should be very aware of what these people may have in their agendas.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I totally agree.
There is no bigger fear than sleeping with the enemy. I personally think they should stop the G funding for the people of the FLF, ISS, and any other affiliated counter groups that will work for the Buck. I had heard one time that they were authorized by the USA to be on a "Kill" agenda for the simple looting of New Orleans. Also heard that they were the first there to respond and took the spotlight away from the RedCross. They were making approximately 3,500 per day per individual. Unreal...

Here's something I had found about the earlier claim I had made about the 'Blackwater' group:

Jeremy Scahill is an independent journalist who reports frequently for the Nation magazine and the Pacifica radio program Democracy Now! His investigations have exposed the role of the Blackwater USA security firm in the aftermath of the Hurricane Katrina disaster.

I was very into the 'Katrina recovery and the successful re-covery' for the individuals of the effects of Katrina. Here is a little more of the tid-bit's of the over all infiltration of the "Blackwater" and thier coherts:

Scahill: BLACKWATER USA is the most rapidly growing and, arguably, the most successful mercenary firm in the world today.

IMHO... "There is nothing but trouble ahead fro the G' that invite the world's best killer's and arbitratrator's of war and Terrorism as a safety device."

Sorry , I had forgot the source of the "Whole" story:
www.counterpunch.org...
[edit on 29-3-2007 by Allred5923]

[edit on 29-3-2007 by Allred5923]

Wow,

I had never really researched blackwater until now, and somehow missed their katrina involvement. After reading what has been posted I think it's fairly safe to say I have been grossly misled about the organization by people I thought I could trust. Such is life though I guess, and now instead of their new apc being cool it is scary. God only knows when they'll get an excuse to try it out on domestic soil.

This is a horrible design. Look how poorly shielded the tires are. Hit the vehicle virtually anywhere with an RPG and you've got a mobility kill, at least. Hell, you've probably just killed everyone in the vehicle!

lol uber not even close... First off all combat vehicles these days can drive on their rims in an emergency... and most have unbelievably well armored tires. second the entire vehicle chassis is diamond shaped, even modern dual charge rpg warheads would have serious difficulty breaching it on the first shot. The geometry of the armor plates effectivelly doubles their capabillity to protect.

Originally posted by roguetechie
lol uber not even close... First off all combat vehicles these days can drive on their rims in an emergency... and most have unbelievably well armored tires. second the entire vehicle chassis is diamond shaped, even modern dual charge rpg warheads would have serious difficulty breaching it on the first shot. The geometry of the armor plates effectivelly doubles their capabillity to protect.

You are so full of it man... You have no I dea what a RPG can do to a vehichle....Do you? There are no designs to protect you from an incoming missle or foriegn object.
If there were, do you think that the boy's over seas would be dying from IED?
Blackwater is an elite group, but they are no place close to touching the "Physical" technologies of the US G's.

I agree with you, there are so many techno's out there at this point and time, there is no way to be certain of any scenario that involves a weapon ....or a WIFE.. "That is if you are married and all..."

Good post, couldn't agree with you more...

U2U me anytime for the conversation of using it as such...

Here's a video of the vehicle on Future Weapons.

Originally posted by Allred5923

You are so full of it man... You have no I dea what a RPG can do to a vehichle....Do you? There are no designs to protect you from an incoming missle or foriegn object.
If there were, do you think that the boy's over seas would be dying from IED?
Blackwater is an elite group, but they are no place close to touching the "Physical" technologies of the US G's.

Let me get this straight- you're saying that design has nothing to do with the protection a vehicle provides? So a design with sloped armor isn't any more effective than one using 90 degree verticle angles, at stopping a projectile? In addition to angles, there are varying densities of materials used in armor which deform the penetrators, making them far less effective(or ineffective). There's a significant difference between an IED and a RPG. IEDs rely on their sheer size(i.e. hundreds of pounds of explosives at times), rather than an RPG relying on a shaped charge.

Here's a picture of a Stryker, with mods that defeat RPGs.

www.lakecityjournal.com...

those attachments deform the warhead.

I have just watched an updated VIDEO from Jeremy Scahill, very interesting watching as I never new that there were so many private mercs in Iraq, anywhere in the region of 40 000 active military units...sheeeesh

Put an RPG into the windshield (it's only rated to stop a 7.62 NATO round) and it's toast.

Deform one of the rims with an RPG or IED and it'll be hard as hell to get up to a good speed...

Use angled, shaped charges that'll be angled to match the angles of the underbelly...

This thing is a fracking joke to anyone who wants to seriously kill its occupants.

I wonder if the electronics are EMP shielded?

This vehicle may be able to withstand a hit by an IED but the speed has got to take a huge hit. Armored Humvees have a max speed of about 55-60 MPH and those are if they are new. Any idea how fast these can get?

reply to post by Lonestar24


"Failed Existences"? Wow. I don't think my mother would agree with that..... Hatred is bad medicine LoneStar.

I drive one and I have an MBA from NYU. Its more fun than sitting behind a desk on the phone, which I'm pretty sure you're just really angry about anyway.

EFP's will penetrate the armor on an Abrams tank. Its pretty hard to defeat an EFP, which is why there are IED detection teams running most of the roads.

The shaped armor is designed to deflect fragments, and will take a considerable hit with conventional explosives. This model is just a prototype anyway. Most Grizzlies running the roads have no passenger windows and the hulls are shaped differently.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
these guys/gals are over in Iraq and Afghanistan risking their lives because they believe in their cause. If you didn't believe in what you were doing would $100,000-150,000 be enough incentive for you to get maimed or killed?

I agree SOME believe in the cause. Others are there for the love of money and some even because they enjoy it.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
Let me get this straight- you're saying that design has nothing to do with the protection a vehicle provides? So a design with sloped armor isn't any more effective than one using 90 degree verticle angles, at stopping a projectile? In addition to angles, there are varying densities of materials used in armor which deform the penetrators, making them far less effective(or ineffective). There's a significant difference between an IED and a RPG. IEDs rely on their sheer size(i.e. hundreds of pounds of explosives at times), rather than an RPG relying on a shaped charge.

Here's a picture of a Stryker, with mods that defeat RPGs.

www.lakecityjournal.com...

those attachments deform the warhead.

I'm assuming that the 'attachments' on the stryker that defeat the RPG are slat armour? First off, slat armour flat-out is crap against tandem-charge devices. An rpg-29 would puncture clean through this thing.


Anyhow, without slat armour, this thing is toast against an rpg. That sheet of AR500 may protect great against bullets and fragments, but it won't stop a projectile that can blast through over a foot of steel. And that's just the low-quality RPG-7. The good HEAT from that can pierce over a foot and a half of steel, and the tandem-charge can pierce over two thirds of a meter.

And that's not even talking about the rpg-29, which can pierce the frontal arc of a challenger-2 tank (and has in battle).

Am I saying this apc sucks? No. It's pretty decent. Has a good speed and protects against basic penetrating bullets and fragmentation, as well as staying structurally sound after being slammed with some pretty heavy shocks. But that AR500 won't stop an rpg.

RPGs will punch through just about any vehicle of this size and weight. That's what they're designed to do. By up-armouring such a vehicle you would sacrifice speed, limits of observation and manoueverability, which are this type of vehicles main defence. Short of a full blown APC there is little protection against a shaped charge warhead.

The answer is simple - an RPG cage. Cheap, simple to apply and light. They work well, simple as that. The warhead is detonated against the cage a couple of feet from the main armour, removing the shaped charge threat. This just leaves the fragmentation effect which the armour should easily defeat. British vehicles have been using them in one shape or form for nearly 50 years with excellent results.

At the end of the day this vehicle is not designed to offer protection against RPGs, it is designed to protect against small arms fire.

reply to post by BlueRaja


A-Katrina
B-These are the same guys who would be used to further spy on Americans-Look at the CEO's of Booz Allen and former heads of the CIA and NSA......
C-If they were real patriots, they would get involved with the military as reservists, active duty, or otherwise-all that matters to them is "Action" and money, patriotism falls behind these two motivators, and only right now seems convienent because we are fighting a 'war on terror' and taking taxpayer money to sit around in the desert (which is what most of these guys do) isn't considered 'bad'....nevermind the US taxpayer is drowning in economic and financial bad politics...

Originally posted by BlueRaja
I'd wager that the majority would have issues with shooting a fellow American merely for money.

And that is probably so but have or would that majority have joined the US army? Isn't the most obvious way to identify someone who 'volunteers' for such activities the fact that they get paid?

If by destroy corporate property you mean an armed attack(which is what they're hired to protect against over there), then I'd agree, but not for vandalism or dissenting opinion.

So why can't the corporations hire their own to protect their property? Since when should the US ( insert whatever nationality) taxpayer pay a additional tax to safeguard the ample property and assets of corporations?

You have to look at the context of their statements about defending corporate property. If I was working as a contractor overseas, and my job was to protect site A, and there were folks trying to attack it, I wouldn't have qualms about shooting them either.

Because we all know that property has far more value than human life whatever the reasons for the attack. Why should i respect those who would protect stolen property from the ire of their former owners?

That's a far cry from ever entertaining the notion of conspiring against fellow Americans for a 2-3X military pay raise.

Why is that? Isn't the history of modern humankind ( the last few thousand years at least) proof enough that loyalty and the sword arm can be bought to do the bidding of the creditor?

Originally posted by BlueRaja
A- Can you give examples of Blackwater or any other private security company conducting paramilitary ops on US soil?

So who do the majority of Us intelligence agencies work for if not for private owners and when have they ever stopped conducting themselves in whichever way both yields results and allows them to continue as before?

B- Can you explain how the folks that comprise these outfits(i.e. former military, law enforcement) who love their country would be interested in having any part in rounding up their countrymen(and examples showing that they exhibit any characteristics/tendencies indicating such).

Why do we presume that they love their country when they do not love it enough to leave the armed services when it involves itself in war crimes on foreign soil? Why should i expect anyone who will accept payment for such crimes to suddenly gain a consciousness when he is forced into situations where his life is now threatened by fellow countrymen he is no more familiar with than his previous victims?

these guys/gals are over in Iraq and Afghanistan risking their lives because they believe in their cause.

Some clearly are but they are certainly no majority as that would have allowed them to sabotage the illegal attacks on foreign countries far more effectively. If they believed in a cause they would have refused to take part in such wars and instead insisted that they be sent home so as to best defend their fellow countrymen when they are in fact attacked.

If you didn't believe in what you were doing would $100,000-150,000 be enough incentive for you to get maimed or killed?

Absolutely! Few Americans ( less than 5% if i remember correctly) earn that type of income and if such rewards were available it would probably be a relatively simple matter to raise sufficient troops to not only conquer a large proportion of the known world but to occupy it for a damn long time at that.

Stellar

This 'Grizzly' is not the first of its kind. The South African Defence/Police Forces have been building vehicles that are 'V' shaped for a number of years now.

en.wikipedia.org...