what will be the topic after they arrive?

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
I use my own survey data, Tezz, based on years of being an atheist and dealing with atheists.

So, you can't support your claim with verifiable data that I can check. In other words, you made it up. You just plucked the 99% figure to add weight to your claim about most atheists not having read the Bible.

For instance, I know that you haven't read the Bible, because you can't even get through Genesis, for Godsake. You've already admitted as much in other posts.

I read Genesis fully. I read Revelations fully. Again, you are making up claims as to how much of the Bible I have read. I couldn't get through Exodus without laughing.

Even though you sell "Christian" audio books on Ebay, you think that everything in the Bible is based on Genesis,

Again, you are making up false claims. I did not sell Christian audio books on eBay. They were cassette tapes and they never sold. They got thrown in the bin after I received no bids for them.

You make up your data and you make false claims. That's presumptuous and dangerous. You spread disinformation, Doc. You should be ashamed. Please try not to pollute your posts with inaccurate facts in future.

Christians believe in the Bible, as being God's Word. Christians believe that God created the Universe, in other words CREATION. Genesis describes the story of Creation, according to the Christian Bible. If the start of the book is a bunch of fairy-tales, then what hope has the rest of it got to be true?

Because atheists have voluntarily lobotomized themselves, closing off their minds to anything divine, and only accepting that which they can verify with their mundane physical senses. When the ETs make their grand appearance (if that day ever comes), atheists will view this as the ultimate physical proof that "God doesn't exist" — otherwise, ETs would be mentioned in the Bible, right? Anything that disproves the Bible is solid gold for atheists (even though they haven't read the Bible).

You speak with authority on atheists, Doc, but you haven't a clue as to how they would react. I don't need proof that God doesn't exist - I KNOW IT DOESN'T exist. Whether or not aliens show up will not change that. Other atheists may think differently, I don't proclaim to know - unlike you.

The Bible disproves itself. It does not need aliens as evidence to the contrary.

We've had this discussion before, Tezz, and you became very defensive when I asked a simple rhetorical question: What if the aliens arrive and publically identify themselves as the biblical "angels" of old, the messengers of God? You flew into a tizzy when I posed that little scenario, because I suppose it violated your ultimate atheist wetdream.

Sadly, Doc. I didn't. Your hypothetical question is moot. It hasn't happened. If the aliens announced themselves as messengers of a divine God, then I would call them liars. That's probably how I responded last time.

Originally posted by tezzajw
So, you can't support your claim with verifiable data that I can check. In other words, you made it up. You just plucked the 99% figure to add weight to your claim about most atheists not having read the Bible....I read Genesis fully. I read Revelations fully. Again, you are making up claims as to how much of the Bible I have read. I couldn't get through Exodus without laughing.

And you keep making my point over and over, Tezz. You have not read the Bible. You still think that scanning the first and last books of the Bible somehow gives you an overview, a working knowledge of what it's all about. But you have zero, zilch understanding of the complete text, who wrote it, and why people believe it. Just like every atheist I've ever known. I'm putting it right in your face, Tezz, 99.99% of atheists haven't read the Bible.

Originally posted by tezzajw
Again, you are making up false claims. I did not sell Christian audio books on eBay. They were cassette tapes and they never sold. They got thrown in the bin after I received no bids for them.

They were Christian tapes and you were participating in the act of selling them on Ebay. You just admitted it. How is that a "false claim" on my part? Tezzajw's Christian Tapes on Ebay

Originally posted by tezzajw
You make up your data and you make false claims. That's presumptuous and dangerous. You spread disinformation, Doc. You should be ashamed. Please try not to pollute your posts with inaccurate facts in future.

I'll tell you what's dangerous, Tezz — trying to synopsize the Bible when you don't know your subject matter in the least. All you have up your sleeve is Genesis, and a very poor understanding of Genesis, at that. As soon as anyone challenges your half-baked rants, you start spewing your "false claims" and "inaccurate facts" accusations. And then you give up completely and leave in a petulant huff. As long as we're handing out unsolicited advice here, sonny boy, Don't even try to discuss the Bible in the future, because you're waaaay out of your element. Now go put that shrimp on your barby and smoke it.

Originally posted by tezzajw
Christians believe in the Bible, as being God's Word. Christians believe that God created the Universe, in other words CREATION. Genesis describes the story of Creation, according to the Christian Bible. If the start of the book is a bunch of fairy-tales, then what hope has the rest of it got to be true?

Yep, that's your whole argument and excuse for not reading the Bible. That's about it. You don't understand that Christians follow Christ, whose story is contained entirely in the New Testament, which is a distinctly different collection of writings than the folklore of the Old Testament. See, Tezz, when you try to judge the entire Bible based on Genesis alone, you come off looking like a very superficial atheist.

Originally posted by tezzajw
You speak with authority on atheists, Doc, but you haven't a clue as to how they would react. I don't need proof that God doesn't exist - I KNOW IT DOESN'T exist.... The Bible disproves itself. It does not need aliens as evidence to the contrary.

I speak with authority on atheists because I have been an atheist and have known the atheist crowd all of my adult life. And what I know is that 99.99% of atheists are a pack of malcontents who are utterly dependent on attacking the Bible to support their atheistic beliefs, even though they haven't read it. Like you, most atheists love to shred on Genesis, because that's as far as they ever got before giving up. You have no evidence whatsoever that God doesn't exist, and you haven't read the Bible, so you don't know what it proves or disproves. Just based on your public tirades, it's obvious that you're utterly clueless and in perpetual denial about the Bible.

Originally posted by tezzajw
If the aliens announced themselves as messengers of a divine God, then I would call them liars.

You heard it here, folks. An atheist who hasn't read the Bible is going to reject a superior species if they don't concur with his primitive, preconceived notions. Of course, should the aliens come down here and shout, "Your Bible is WRONG," then the atheists will be partying like it's their birthday — atheists flip-flop like that. As far as atheists are concerned, if the aliens believe in God, they're liars; if aliens don't believe in God, they're brothers.

The Christians, on the other hand, are going to be suspicious of the aliens no matter what, because their religion forewarns them about miraculous appearances and entities claiming to be God (or messengers of God). In this way, Christians are more skeptical than atheists.

Still, you can see how Tezz is always quick to call anybody a liar or a "spreader of disinformation" when they challenge his narrow perception of reality. But that's a good atheist for you, head in the sand, denial to the death.

— Doc Velocity

[edit on 2/28/2007 by Doc Velocity]

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Yep, that's your whole argument and excuse for not reading the Bible. That's about it. You don't understand that Christians follow Christ, whose story is contained entirely in the New Testament, which is a distinctly different collection of writings than the folklore of the Old Testament. See, Tezz, when you try to judge the entire Bible based on Genesis alone, you come off looking like a malcontent atheist.

Umm Doc, that sounds like You don't know the bible

Micah 5:1-2 (NIV) Marshal your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod. 2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."


the Old testament sets the stage for the Christ, without it there is no Christ, it sounds like you contradicted yourself. ( oh and I must be in the .01 %, thanks for pointing out how special I am Doc) and which "version" are you reading anyway doc. Just so we can keep it all straight...........



[edit on 28-2-2007 by thedigirati] for clarity


[edit on 28-2-2007 by thedigirati]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fixed quote

[edit on 28/2/07 by masqua]

Originally posted by thedigirati
Umm Doc, that sounds like You don't know the bible: Micah 5:1-2 (NIV) Marshal your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod. 2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

The Old testament sets the stage for the Christ, without it there is no Christ, it sounds like you contradicted yourself. ( oh and I must be in the .01 %, thanks for pointing out how special I am Doc) and which "version" are you reading anyway doc. Just so we can keep it all straight.

Sheesh, now I have to deal with another partial-reader of the Bible. It is no secret that there is prophecy in the Old Testament of the coming of a Jewish messiah. This messiah is not named in the Old Testament, they only knew (or were told) that he would come from the bloodline of David. Throughout the latter books of the Old Testament, God was preparing the Jews for this coming, in an attempt to keep the bloodline pure.

To this day, the Jews are still waiting for that messiah, because they don't believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ. No, Jews do not accept the New Testament's accounts of Jesus as the coming of The Christ.

So, we have a disconnect between the Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament speaks of "a messiah" in general, while the New Testament specifically names Jesus as the Christ, the christened one, the messiah. The story of Jesus Christ, as I have said repeatedly, is contained in the New Testament. Christians follow the teachings of Christ, as contained in the New Testament.

— Doc Velocity

[edit on 2/28/2007 by Doc Velocity]

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

So, we have a disconnect between the Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament speaks of "a messiah" in general, while the New Testament specifically names Jesus as the Christ, the christened one, the messiah. The story of Jesus Christ, as I have said repeatedly, is contained in the New Testament. Christians follow the teachings of Christ, as contained in the New Testament.

— Doc Velocity

[edit on 2/28/2007 by Doc Velocity]

still the contradictions continue, Jesus' Divinity was based on the "folklore" ( your words) of the old testament Doc, One again when you find yourself caught up in being misinformed you mis-direct. without a foundation, the building collapses, without the old testament, the new is meaningless
( BTW, you never said which "version" you have read)

I have found that in my adulthood having dealt with astronomers, astrophysicists and mathematicians that 99.99% of child prodigies are emotionally stunted and have to continually "prove" their intellect.

Originally posted by thedigirati
still the contradictions continue, Jesus' Divinity was based on the "folklore" ( your words) of the old testament Doc, One again when you find yourself caught up in being misinformed you mis-direct. without a foundation, the building collapses, without the old testament, the new is meaningless. ( BTW, you never said which "version" you have read)

I'm not "misdirecting" anyone, and I'm not misinformed. You're making the same mistake that Tezz always makes, assuming that the Old and New Testaments are one long, continuous narrative written by one guy taking dictation from God. And that's a major misunderstanding.

The writings of the Old Testament were already ancient by the time Jesus was born, assembled largely out of primitive folklore from all around the Middle East, derived of many authors from many different stages of Middle Eastern civilization. This is especially true for Genesis, which Tezz loves to shred and use as a barometer for the rest of the Bible. The "books" of the Old Testament circulated as independent pieces of writing for ages before they were assembled into one tome, and you can be sure that whole books were heavily edited and/or completely omitted for the sake of continuity.

That's why I have said and will always say that the Old Testament is largely a compilation of barbaric folklore, with livestock being sacrificed & torched on altars and God smiting those who defied him.

The New Testament is likewise selectively assembled of "books" that floated around the Middle East for hundreds of years before being edited and compiled into one body of work. The redundant accounts of Jesus by different authors adds "historical" weight, I think, to the New Testament over the Old.

And, no, you don't have to mindlessly accept every single word of the Old Testament as "fact" in order to be a Christian. The contention that the New Testament doesn't stand up without the Old Testament is nonsense. I've known Christians who carried nothing but the New Testament all their lives. It's always been a source of amusement to me how atheists are stricter than God about the Bible... You have to believe it all, or you're not really a Christian!! Which is absurd and just further demonstrates that the great majority of atheists don't know what the hell they're talking about.

The Old Testament is something taught in children's Sunday school classes, and most Christians I know have all questioned the incongruities of the Old Testament. What about the dinosaurs? How did Cain take a wife? If God flooded the whole earth, where the run-off go? And so forth. These are normal questions which have never been satisfactorily answered, as far as I'm concerned, but nobody has tried to force it down my throat except atheists.

And the Bible that I know is the same one that most people know, the King James.

— Doc Velocity

again, the point was missed, state the bases of Jesus' Divinity. Without the old testament Christ has no Divine nature. Jesus was not the only "prophet" of that era, but he met the required Prophecies ( from the old testament) to be called divine ( hence the term "the Nazariene" ) Maybe you need to read More then just the new testament. because it won't stand alone, which is why they are found together in Most cases ( other then in abridged form) funny how you state they I and others have not read the bible when you make it sound like you have only read HALF of it


BTW I never mention the old testament as being the Jewish Bible, you did as well as bringing up Genesis, Neither of which are pertinent to this discussion, so yes, I would claim that as mis direction, all I ask is where the "proof" of Jesus' divinity comes from, you can google it if need be

[edit on 28-2-2007 by thedigirati]

Originally posted by thedigirati
ZOOM...again, the point was missed, state the bases of Jesus' Divinity. Without the old testament Christ has no Divine nature. Jesus was not the only "prophet" of that era, but he met the required Prophecies ( from the old testament) to be called divine ( hence the term "the Nazariene" ) Maybe you need to read More then just the new testament. because it won't stand alone, which is why they are found together in Most cases ( other then in abridged form) funny how you state they I and others have not read the bible when you make it sound like you have only read HALF of it

I haven't missed your point. You are wanting to say that Jesus needs credentials in order to be The Christ. You're trying to say (albeit clumsily) that the Old Testament somehow proves Jesus's divinity. But that's a load of malarky.

If the Old Testament was convincing in that respect, then the Jews would have accepted Jesus as the Christ, and there wouldn't be a division between Jew and Christian today. The Christ of the New Testament was accepted because of his words and actions, not because of Old Testament prophecy. If you think Old Testament prophecy is inextricable from New Testament Gospels, go try to sell that to the Jews. They'll laugh in your face.

— Doc Velocity

which "Jews" would that be? the Bloodline is extinct....
I can see that your "blind" faith would never waver, and I'm amused by it ( hence the term blind.....) but your "logic" revolves in circles, I think you might want to do a bit of research about your claims.
I spent two years at a seminary after I got out of the Marines, I dropped it because I found no inner truth there for me as I thought It would ( there are no atheists in a battlefield ) you proclaim many things but have yet to back any of them up in any way, if this is your "opinion" clearly state it as such please

Originally posted by thedigirati
which "Jews" would that be? the Bloodline is extinct....
I can see that your "blind" faith would never waver, and I'm amused by it ( hence the term blind.....) but your "logic" revolves in circles, I think you might want to do a bit of research about your claims.

My "blind faith" in what? I'm not religious, I just know my subject matter, which is more than most atheists can claim. As for my "logic revolving in circles," welcome to atheist hell. Most atheists out there specialize in closed-loop thinking, so I speak to you guys on your own terms. But I'm not attempting to rationalize the Bible and Christianity, as you are, with some sort of "Basic Programming" — IF Christians are this, THEN they cannot be that. IF God is this, THEN God cannot be that. IF Christians deviate from atheist definitions, THEN GOTO hell.

Originally posted by thedigirati
I spent two years at a seminary after I got out of the Marines, I dropped it because I found no inner truth there for me as I thought It would ( there are no atheists in a battlefield ) you proclaim many things but have yet to back any of them up in any way, if this is your "opinion" clearly state it as such please.

Back up what with what? I'm not making extraordinary claims, I'm just here to assist you with resolving your egregious misconceptions. What have I said that requires proof? What would you like for me to do, start quoting Bible verses? Oh, joy, I know everyone will stick around for that. As far as backing up what is said, I think that you need to provide a little proof that the New Testament cannot stand without the Old Testament. That is the extraordinary claim of the day, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

— Doc Velocity

[edit on 2/28/2007 by Doc Velocity]

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- how to heal a laser wound

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- hail to Xluzyon VIII, our new master, may death come quick to his enemy

- how to pimp a flying saucer ?

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

My "blind faith" in what? I'm not religious, I just know my subject matter, which is more than most atheists can claim. As for my "logic revolving in circles," welcome to atheist hell. Most atheists out there specialize in closed-loop thinking, so I speak to you guys on your own terms. But I'm not attempting to rationalize the Bible and Christianity, as you are, with some sort of "Basic Programming" — IF Christians are this, THEN they cannot be that. IF God is this, THEN God cannot be that. IF Christians deviate from atheist definitions, THEN GOTO hell.

Originally posted by thedigirati
I spent two years at a seminary after I got out of the Marines, I dropped it because I found no inner truth there for me as I thought It would ( there are no atheists in a battlefield ) you proclaim many things but have yet to back any of them up in any way, if this is your "opinion" clearly state it as such please.

Back up what with what? I'm not making extraordinary claims, I'm just here to assist you with resolving your egregious misconceptions. What have I said that requires proof? What would you like for me to do, start quoting Bible verses? Oh, joy, I know everyone will stick around for that. As far as backing up what is said, I think that you need to provide a little proof that the New Testament cannot stand without the Old Testament. That is the extraordinary claim of the day, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

— Doc Velocity

[edit on 2/28/2007 by Doc Velocity]

I never claimed the new testament can stand on it's own, YOU did, that is an extraordinary claim, I never said Jesus' divinity was based solely in the new testament, you did. I would say that would require some source to back it up

external source

According to these learned dissenters, the New Testament could rightly be called, "Gospel Fictions."

A century ago, mythicist Albert Churchward said, "The canonical gospels can be shown to be a collection of sayings from the Egyptian Mythos and Eschatology." In Forgery in Christianity, Joseph Wheless states, "The gospels are all priestly forgeries over a century after their pretended dates."

Those who concocted some of the hundreds of "alternative" gospels and epistles that were being kicked about during the first several centuries C.E. have even admitted that they had forged the documents. Forgery during the first centuries of the Church's existence was admittedly rampant, so common in fact that a new phrase was coined to describe it: "pious fraud." Such prevarication is confessed to repeatedly in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Some of the "great" church fathers, such as Eusebius, were determined by their own peers to be unbelievable liars who regularly wrote their own fictions of what "the Lord" said and did during "his" alleged sojourn upon the earth.

Turning to the gospels themselves, which were composed between 170-180 C.E., their pretended authors, the apostles, give sparse histories and genealogies of Jesus that contradict each other and themselves in numerous places. The birthdate of Jesus is depicted as having taken place at different times. His birth and childhood are not mentioned in "Mark," and although he is claimed in "Matthew" and "Luke" to have been "born of a virgin," his lineage is traced to the House of David through Joseph, such that he may "fulfill prophecy." He is said in the first three (Synoptic) gospels to have taught for one year before he died, while in "John" the number is three years. "Matthew" relates that Jesus delivered "The Sermon on the Mount" before "the multitudes," while "Luke" says it was a private talk given only to the disciples.


www.atheistwa.org...

seems the old testament is not the only folklore.............


[edit on 28-2-2007 by thedigirati]

external source

" his lineage is traced to the House of David through Joseph, such that he may "fulfill prophecy."

Doc, please tell me what prophecy this is referring to, I need your Awesome wisdom

www.atheistwa.org...

also direct me to any sources you may have the the new testament stands alone, this is all new to me, I've never heard that point of view

Your previous comment sounded like a UFO believer that says "prove they don't exist"

Originally posted by thedigirati
I never claimed the new testament can stand on it's own, YOU did, that is an extraordinary claim, I never said Jesus' divinity was based solely in the new testament, you did. I would say that would require some source to back it up.

What you said was that the New Testament can not stand without the Old Testament; and I said that the New Testament does stand without the Old Testament. Proof of my observation can be found in the existence of the New Testament Church, with congregations all around the world. You can look them all up, if you want, but I'm just linking you to a few of them here:

www.newtestamentchurch.com...
www.ntcg.org.uk...
www.lookinguntojesus.net...

The New Testament Church appeals to the writings of the New Testament alone for its authority, such that "The Bible" for them is the New Testament itself. You could fairly argue that all evangelical churches are New Testament-centric, as well, but I'm not going down that path because, frankly, I don't care.

Originally posted by thedigirati
According to these learned dissenters, the New Testament could rightly be called, "Gospel Fictions.".... seems the old testament is not the only folklore.

Well, you're not impressing me with this old stuff, either, because I'm not religious to begin with. As I have said before, I have no doubt that the New Testament was heavily edited, if not outright concocted, and selectively compiled — rejecting a number of "Gospels" that might raise hackles — and it's still being edited and reinterpreted to this day. You have no argument from me there.

The whole point is that you can't get an "overview" of the Bible by reading Genesis alone, or even Genesis and Revelations together. Unfortunately, that's what most atheists do — they scan a few passages in Genesis, make their judgment, then claim to have "read the Bible" before shredding it, without even knowing the difference between the Old & New Testaments.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by thedigirati
Doc, please tell me what prophecy this is referring to, I need your Awesome wisdom

You need something, alright. What's your point? I already remarked on the prophecy regarding the bloodline of David earlier. Guess you ZOOOM missed it.

— Doc Velocity

what will be the topic after they arrive?

what about the historybooks?laws of nature? relativity theory
(so einstein was wrong??)and all the other astrofysics and their theories?
they will have to be rewritten?
and i think it will be a very big book then. their will be lots of work to write new ones and burn the old ones.

and will it be possible to travel to other stars and so ?when can i book a vacation to the Andromeda Galaxy for a couple of weeks?
can i take my own spacecar to go?
thx
grtz
Inna Fire

again Doc, your talking Genesis, I've read it as well as the rest of the bible, I'm different then an atheist hence the name under my nic, but yet again, you have not answered my DIRECT question, you are not religious, ( what ever THAT means, sounds like and oxymoron from your previous statements)
you Still have not answered what made Jesus Divine. you say the new testament stands alone, then why would it matter what Jesus' lineage be? or that he was of "virgin birth". Could it be because the OLD testament says thats how people would know the Christ ( christened one). your statements fall on themselves like a house of cards in the wind Doc. you sound like a Hoaxer that you loath so much.

Engarde' defend yourself.............

Originally posted by MajesticJax
Total chaos, global meltdown in finances, religion, security, etc., and that's EXACTLY why the governments of the world have tried to keep a lid on ET life!

I doubt this is how it would be. Yes, everything will need tweaking, but think of how many problems would be washed away. Just the proof of ET life would put religious disputes at an end, at least on hold. I'm sure some "nutcases" would try to convert the aliens to some religion, but If the Ets are friendly, benevolent beings, we are likely to begin following whatever beliefs they may hold. The ET's may have to be a lot more advanced than us though. If aliens who's civilization had only been around a few centuries longer than ours (or even shorter!), would you be able to accept their religious beliefs? Then again, if the beings had been civilized for tens of thousands of years, would you convert? I would. The government hides the "truth" because they need to have an advantage in case of global war. They know that many countries would be better off without the U.S. playing global police. Here's another thought though, what if all the conspiracy theories regarding aliens were false? What if no government on the planet has confirmation of ET life? Personally, I'd rather believe, they are hiding aliens than not.

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by thedigirati
Doc, please tell me what prophecy this is referring to, I need your Awesome wisdom

You need something, alright. What's your point? I already remarked on the prophecy regarding the bloodline of David earlier. Guess you ZOOOM missed it.

— Doc Velocity

My wife and I have read this thread 3 times each, I guess I DID miss it doc, please quote it for me, thanks

edit for lazy typing LOL

[edit on 28-2-2007 by thedigirati]

Originally posted by thedigirati
you Still have not answered what made Jesus Divine.

Obviously, he wasn't considered "divine" by the Jews as a whole, or they wouldn't still be waiting for their messiah to arrive today. He was not universally recognized as the messiah in his day, nor in the present. He was recognized as divine by his followers for his words and deeds, which is the same context in which evangelical Christians recognize him.

Originally posted by thedigirati
you say the new testament stands alone, then why would it matter what Jesus' lineage be? or that he was of "virgin birth". Could it be because the OLD testament says thats how people would know the Christ ( christened one).

Don't you understand that Jesus was not universally recognized as the prophecized Jewish messiah? He was rejected by the Jews, for the most part. His following was negligible during his lifetime, although annoying enough to piss off all the wrong people. His "divinity" was proven to the apostles through his words and deeds, not through Old Testament prophecy, or else he would have been universally accepted.

Originally posted by thedigirati
your statements fall on themselves like a house of cards in the wind Doc. you sound like a Hoaxer that you loath so much. Engarde' defend yourself.............

Defend myself against a dog chasing his tail?

— Doc Velocity