What lies beneath the Patriarchal Cenotaphs?

I hadn't realized that there was a religious site in the levant called "The Cave of the Patriarchs", and that it is generally, or at least relgiously, by the muslims, jews, and christians, considered to be the site of the tombs of Adam and Eve, Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah, and Jacob and Leah.

Later its claimed that the tomb of the Prophet Joseph is located there. Jewish Midrashic sources also claim that the Head of Esau (considered to be the father of the Edomites).

The structure has a series of cenotaphs located on the main floor, these are structures that basically are stand-ins for the tombs themselves.

There are two entrances within the structure that lead undergound, to a series of caves, which was discovered in the 12th century by a christian monk, and contained human remains.
Very few people apparently have entered into the caves since then.

The tomb of Joseph was locally beleived to be in the same area, apparently undergound, and was commemorated as such by the muslims when they were the ones running the place. The Marmalukes placed a cenotapg for Joseph not long after wards.


So a few questions.

What is buried in the caves? Surely we should be seeing if genetic samples can be collected from whoever is buried there. It'd be fascinating to see what we can learn about its occupants from genetic population studies.

Where does the story about the head of easu come from?

If Easu, the twin brother of Jacob (who is regarded highly amoung the jews), is buried there, and he is the father of the Edomites, does it mean that the Midrashic sources are infact Edomite sources, or that they were edomites (a midrash being an interpretation and extension of a torah text, so perhaps at least that the people that came up with that midrash were edomites?)

Clearly the biggest question is 'who's in the tombs'? I'd think that its in the best interests of everyone to sample the remains and do some studies.

And recall also the the islamic Prophet Mohammed's tomb is also known.

Imagine IF we could sample and compare all thse remains, and find out, for example, that Mohammed WAS descended from Abraham, surely that'd be a boon to the muslims (who are the ones that have legal control of the Cave of the Patriarchs right now), if that is what's needed to persuade them.

*whew*

i have to be honest...this is just about over my head or out of my ballpark...

but yet i'll bite.

I have never heard of these at all...

What more about Esau's head do you know?

Absolutely nothing.

I had heard of the cave of the patriarch's before, but I figured, there's nothing actually there. Then I came across it looking at some other stuff, and found out that the beleivers say those things are buried there, and that there ARE actual remains reported as being buried there.


But, I mean, I can understand that there is a tomb for Mohammed, everyone generally agrees that he actually exists (and his tomb is in saudi arabia). And there are tombs and relicts of other religious figures.

But Abraham? Thats a loooooooooooooong time ago.

ANd if thats not enough, these cultists beleive that Adam and Eve are ALSO buried there? THats just astounding, I mean, WHOS in there, clearly not Adam and Eve, but who are they saying is Adam and Eve anyway?>

Are they human remains?
I recall reading about greek shrines to the heroes that had gigantic thigh bones and shoulder blades in them, but that are actually though to be fossils of the ice age mammalian 'megafauna' that were dug up. It would be interesting if these remains turned out to be as such.

How shocking would it be if, say, Abraham's remains were just such a thing, and they were actually ice age pig bones? That'd throw everyone for a loop eh?!

Or imagine if the remains of Adam and Eve were genetically tested, and found to beleong to a different ethnic group than Abraham (or at least the proported abraham and adam, etc).

Or imagine if there was a genetic marker in the remains of 'abraham', that is also in modern jews and arabs (which of course would be likely anyway, since a person in that region, even of thousands of years ago, woudl like yhave some genes that are shared by the people of the region today).

And imagine if it could be shown that the remains of the children of abraham there could be actually shown genetically to be children of hte abraham remains?


Its just so fascinating, to think that these remains are actually there, and no one is doing anything with them. I mean, if we found the remains of Augustus (and we do have his masoleum, but its empty), we'd certainly want to test them all sorts of ways.

Maybe it's one of these guy's???


I don't know how authentic this image is but when I saw it I said OH S%^&!!,
hope I don't get to run into one of these!!!

Originally posted by Nygdan
Absolutely nothing.

Somehow i'm comforted by that.

Did you hear last year or so that supposedly they found the skull of Goliath (or a near relative with the same abnormal growth hormone) in a cave - he was beheaded by David, the bible says. I never really ascertained if it was probable or not. I tend to believe that over Esau's head being on its own somewhere.

I had heard of the cave of the patriarch's before, but I figured, there's nothing actually there.

Right - i guess i always figured the same (surely someone would have excavated it long ago) and the idea of Adam & Eve in there seems WAY OUT.

But you just NEVER know...

Then I came across it looking at some other stuff, and found out that the believers say those things are buried there, and that there ARE actual remains reported as being buried there.

THats just astounding, I mean, WHOS in there, clearly not Adam and Eve, but who are they saying is Adam and Eve anyway?

Exactly
Bones are part of the landscape by then.

Are they human remains?

That'd throw everyone for a loop eh?!

More than just finding pig bones in the trash pile.
Although Abraham wasn't kosher yet anyway.

Or imagine if there was a genetic marker in the remains of 'abraham', that is also in modern jews and arabs (which of course would be likely anyway, since a person in that region, even of thousands of years ago, woudl like yhave some genes that are shared by the people of the region today).

Well you know they do have King David's remains, they say. Buried above ground in a stone crypt in a little house in Jerusalem. But that was a lot later.

And imagine if it could be shown that the remains of the children of abraham there could be actually shown genetically to be children of hte abraham remains?

But really, think about this: if Abraham really did live and have all the wives and sons he is recorded as having in the Torah ( i actually don't doubt Abraham at all ) then basically 2/3 of the world was probably genetically linked somehow to Abraham.

And then if Solomon existed and really had 1000 women in his harem, and all the daughters it is said that he sired...then the rest of the world was inducted in the family over time!

It's possible~!

Far more than finding a homo sapiens Adam and Eve in Eden perfection that most expect - IMHO. Perhaps there were ancestors who became that Legend for their offspring?...but so long ago all is legend.

Its just so fascinating, to think that these remains are actually there, and no one is doing anything with them. I mean, if we found the remains of Augustus (and we do have his masoleum, but its empty), we'd certainly want to test them all sorts of ways.

I do!

But you know the Jewish belief in resurrection (rather a large portion that do believe, that is) requires the bones (ideally) and the little bone that goes under your jaw (at the very least) in order to be resurrected in the world-to-come.
To spoil the graves would be tantamount to taking their name out of the book of life. Just as in Egypt when they gouged out Hasheput's face on the tombs...it is the theft of one's mortality! In those religions, anyway.

There is the tomb of Aaron, too, on Mount Hor (?) Near Petra, i think.

The Muslims are very devoted and revere all these as their patriarchs - don't you think that is the main reason they are perhaps, possibly, untouched in all these LONG years?