Payment for Services Rendered

Why is that concept so hard for people to grasp when it comes to black Americans?

Can we all agree that this country enslaved Africans?

Can we all agree that they were kidnapped, forced onto work camps, and not paid?

Can we all agree that this country only begrudgingly set them free in 1865?

Can we all agree that Jim Crow was just as 'freedom-inhibiting' as actual enslavement?

Can we all agree that black Americans were just officially granted the rights and privileges of other American citizens in 1965?

Can we all agree that this new arrangement is still in the process of 'trickling down' to the rest of the population?

So what's the problem? Really?

No deflection, ie, bringing up Irish indentured servants, or the perceived failings of contemporary black Americans.

That would be off-topic.

Are you talking about the government paying black people reparations for slavery? That is ridiculous! You were probably a slave owner in a previous life anyway. I am not for this but if it must go down, then people applying for the govt. giveaway should have to prove that their ancestors actually were slaves within the confines of the United States and did not migrate here after the Civil War.

Life was tough for everybody a hundred years ago. Should we pay reparations to everybody whose ancestors had a tough time? Maybe we should pay the Indians for the genocide perpetrated on them? Maybe we should also pay the Chinese for the horrors perpetrated against them? Maybe we should pay the children of the country because of all the child slavery that went on?

I am tired of hearing modern black people, having the benefit of modern education, and government entitlement programs, talk about how they need to be paid by the government to heal the wound of slavery. Welfare and affirmative action are not enough? People need to put down the crack pipe, quit glorifying and seeking to emulate the pimp gangster lifestyle, and get an education and a job instead of being a constant drain upon society.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Can we all agree that this country enslaved Africans?

No, because that is not what happened. Africans enslaved africans and were doing it before we showed up.

Maybe I should get some reparations from the North Africans who regulary plied up and down the Cornish coast taking white slaves, right up into the 18th century. Then there are the Meditteranian people who were also subject to enslavement by blacks.

You always constantly make out that Blacks are the only people to have suffered and it was the White man's fault. Get over it. What you spout is false information and downright lies.

[edit on 23/2/07 by stumason]

Now it's no secret that UNTIL those generous spirited WHITE people travelled to Africa at their OWN expense and suffering to bring the word and gift of God to the heathen blacks, there were NO schools in Africa for the current-whiners' ancestors to enjoy.

No hospitals in Africa, either.

No churches.

No universities.

No written language.

I don't think they'd even evolved to the extent they had the wheel, had they? If they had, it would have been the muslims who gave it to them.

There was nothing in the black-homeland in fact, except black slaves toiling and dying for black masters amidst billions of flies and goat dung.

There were no job-opportunities.

There was certainly no PAY.

No food.

No water.

Lots of dysentry. And cholera. And malaria.

LOTS of fighting and death and rape and suffering: black against black.

The life expectancy THEN was measured in the fingers of both hands.

Black men sold blacks as slaves. And ate them too, apparently.

But BEFORE that, white men were using WHITE men as slaves.

Oh --------- blacks just want to gloss over that do they? Too bad. If it's reality you claim to want then don't dodge it.

In fact, it was blacks from Africa (Muslims in fact, who considered themselves a much higher status black than the rank and file) who charged up to a CORNISH village (that's right -- in the used-to-be White UK) and grabbed an entire village full of WHITE people and dragged them back to Africa as slaves.

Does THAT mean that people from the UK should start whining about reparation to today's Muslims? Huh? Maybe Britons should whine about reparation (or just whine generally) about the Roman invasion and the Viking depravities too?

But WHITE people don't DO that, do they?

Number One: they have far too much PRIDE.

And of course, being WHITE people, they adjust. And you know what they say about intelligence: 'intelligence is defined as the ability to adapt'.

So WHITES take things in their stride. Just as the WHITES who were taken to the US as slaves picked themselves up in time, and got on with it.

The BLACKS who were sold by their OWN people as slaves are STILL WHINING ! And it's worn THIN.

After all, as records show beyond any doubt, the BLACKS INCREASED their population in the US by 3,000 % in less than 150 years !

So HOW 'unhappy' with their lot could they have been in the US?
How 'difficult' could it have been for them in the US ?

Whites didn't increase their population by anywhere NEAR 3,000% in the same period.

And what does THAT tell us ?

It tells us that the whites were busy working their bums off building the nation --- instead of just breeding indescriminately.

It tells us that the whites were having a much more difficult time of it than the blacks.

In the final analysis, it seems obvious that BLACKS prospered in the US --- at the expense of the white population.

Yet is it Whitey who's launching all these black-whinger threads ?

reparations, absolutely! anyone who was a slave should be paid for the work they did and perhaps their sons and daughters, but should reparations be paid to someone because a distant ancestor was a slave? well how far back would you go? far enough back and you could not prove anything and almost anyone could apply. no. you or your parents were slaves then you deserve compensation but that's about the limit i can see as justified.

I asked that this thread not be derailed, as a reminder, something I shouldn't even have to do because you all have agreed to the T&C.

If your only debate tactic is deflection, you don't belong here.

I'm not looking for rehashed Klan rhetoric. I'm asking why a historic wrong that we all realize occurred cannot be put right. Plain and simple.

Thanks.

Anything anyone EVER says to you in response, unless complete agreement, is noted by you as a "derailment" and "deflection". If you can't see that these are notable and important REASONS that your case is unsustainable then perhaps YOU don't belong here.

Of course now I'm a Klan supporter, right? As usual, I'm a racist because you suck...

Why not start with the US government, then move on to companies that benefitted from slavery?

For example, the White House was built with slave labor. There are still companies in existence that benefitted from slave labor. Today, Firestone uses near-slave labor in their factories in Africa.

Look at Israel; they STILL get money from Germany, despite inflating the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. DESPITE the head of the Jewish rescue committee during the war saying that a Jew in Europe was not worth more than a cow in Palestine, OR that he would say NO to using a penny of the committee's money to rescue Jews from the Nazis.

But yeah, I'm sure the survivors of the Holocaust get/got all that money from Germany, and not the Israeli government...

Originally posted by wcssar
you or your parents were slaves then you deserve compensation but that's about the limit i can see as justified.

I understand your point.

You're wrong, but I can see how you could feel that way.

However, allow me to remind you, the very same system that had enslaved these people, the very same system that didn't even want to set them free, was still in power.

You don't think that racist power structure would just decide to be magnanimous, do you?

Right after slavery, which would have been the appropriate juncture to clear this up, black people were being lynched left and right. The local government participated, and the federal government looked the other way.

If you read old Southern diaries from that era, you would be shocked to learn that former slave masters expressed shock and grief that their 'people' would 'desert them' once they were free. They thought we liked it! It didn't even compute to them that we were not their people, we were their slaves; that we hadn't 'deserted them,' which would imply that, at some point, we had been there by choice.

Do you think that these kinds of people would think to repay their former slaves?

Probably not.

That's why the issue of reparation is being brought up so long after the fact. We didn't have the legal right to bring it up before.

That being said, do you still believe reparations should be taken off the table?

IMO, that's like if you're playing basketball, and the guy guarding you puts you in a headlock, thereby running out the shot clock, and your team loses. Shouldn't the ref call that?

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I asked that this thread not be derailed, as a reminder, something I shouldn't even have to do because you all have agreed to the T&C.

If your only debate tactic is deflection, you don't belong here.

I'm not looking for rehashed Klan rhetoric. I'm asking why a historic wrong that we all realize occurred cannot be put right. Plain and simple.

Thanks.

HAHA! Deflection? Just because you can't accept the fact that Black men enslaved Balck men, or that Black men enslaved White men. this is not something that just suddenly happened when europeans turned up in Africa. It was going on and is STILL going on today.

In fact, in many european countries, slavery was outlawed in the middle ages, it was just convenient that the lack of law enforcement in the colonies meant they turned a blind eye.

Today's black's are owed squat, nothing, zero. Perhaps you should look to your "brothers and sisters" who are still in W.Africa and ask them "Why did you enslave us and sell us?". I think you should start there for any apology your after.

Originally posted by Gatordone
Anything anyone EVER says to you in response, unless complete agreement, is noted by you as a "derailment" and "deflection".

Why is everybody lying on me all of a sudden?

I really don't say it all that much. Only when people do it. I haven't even been here that much since my ATS anniversary.

Is someone else posting under my screenname???

I'm freaking out a little because this is the very first day I'm posting regularly, like I used to, and you're the second person to say that to me. I don't even know you.

Ok. Very much on topic here.

You seek MONEY from the white man.

As a white, I would strenously object to blacks being paid one cent more.

because:

(1)Blacks have continued to increase their population by unprecedented numbers since entering the US, demonstrating they feel comfortable, safe and privileged within the US.

(2) Throughout several hundred years, blacks have interbred extensively with whites and others. The blacks of today are NOT blacks: instead they are of mixed race.

(3) Blacks have resided in the US for approx. 400 years, during which they have CHOSEN NOT to return to Africa or elsewhere.

As such, it is clear that black ENJOY living in the US and HAVE REMAINED in the US BY CHOICE throughout several hundred years, despite having had AMPLE opportunity to depart.

Case closed.

Stumason,

I'll explain it slowly, so as not to confuse you: The subject matter at hand is the US, it's involvement in this human tragedy, and its obligation to the people it enslaved. Not Africa, or Africans, or any European country. I have nothing to do with what is happening or did happen in any other country. I am an American citizen.

Thank you.

I'm asking why a historic wrong that we all realize occurred cannot be put right. Plain and simple.

HH, I respect you ...I really do, I follow all of these threads and it's hard not to notice your obvious attempts to keep things on topic and civil...so please don't take anything as a personal attack.


I am absolutely 100% for paying double, triple, or whatever it takes to the people who truly suffered. If someone was around then, and worked as a slave...or their parents were slaves...I am all for paying them whatever it takes. I can't possibly justify however, giving money to anyone who didn't wasn't around then, and didn't have any part in any of it.

At what point would we say "okay, enough is enough...we have paid our debt."? There will always be someone out there that doesn't think what we gave is enough. Do you get where I'm coming from?

Is there any way to "make it right" that doesn't involve people money? Or is that the only way to let someone know that you're sorry for something that you personally were never even part of...

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Stumason,

I'll explain it slowly, so as not to confuse you: The subject matter at hand is the US, it's involvement in this human tragedy, and its obligation to the people it enslaved. Not Africa, or Africans, or any European country. I have nothing to do with what is happening or did happen in any other country. I am an American citizen.

Thank you.

If you ignore the African involvement and what was done to europeans (centuries before we had black slaves) then there is no point debating the issue. You cant cherry pick one side and one sliver of history to prove your point when the rest of the evidence completely refutes anything you say.

And I shall (again) repeat it, very slowly for you...

WHITE...MEN...DID...NOT...ENSLAVE....AFRICANS...YOU...DID....IT....ALL...YOURSELF....AND..ARE...STILL....DOING...IT....TODAY....

We just bought a product that we found was conveniently on sale in West Africa when we showed up.

White men didn't go out with big nets and round up Blacks. Blacks and Arabs did. In fact, you were doing it too us as well.

Understand? Probably not. I know you find it hard dealing with anyone who doesn't agree with your viewpoint.

[edit on 23/2/07 by stumason]

[edit on 23/2/07 by stumason]

hh has a point and a question. i worked with a Japanese guy ( an American citizen) who was paid reparations for being interred during the war, the government was in the wrong and paid up for the act that should never occurred so i can see why a black person would say hey what about us wasn't slavery worse than a few years in a camp? as to why they didn't leave they stayed because they were born here therefore are American citizens just likes everyone else. I'm not sure i believe that anyone who was not directly affected (s in the case of internment) deserves compensation, but the debate hinges on what you call directly affected, not on the merits of the idea of compensation because the government has paid other groups so the only question is who deserves it not if it should be done it already has so that precedent is set.

Originally posted by Dock6
Ok. Very much on topic here.

You are!

You seek MONEY from the white man.

Correction:

I seek restitution from the US Government and whichever (still existing) corporations that benefited.

The form of that restitution is negotiable.

As a white, I would strenously object to blacks being paid one cent more.

"As a white"?

Wow, no wonder we're having so much difficulty here.

Your government wronged millions of people and continued to do so even when those people made known their wills.

As an American, I feel that our country's position of moral superiority is dependent on how we handle this, and other situations like it.

(1)Blacks have continued to increase their population by unprecedented numbers since entering the US, demonstrating they feel comfortable, safe and privileged within the US.

The fact that our numbers have increased has nothing to do with feeling safe. People reproduce under the worst circumstances. It's a human imperative.

(2) Throughout several hundred years, blacks have interbred extensively with whites and others. The blacks of today are NOT blacks: instead they are of mixed race.

That has no bearing on the fact that, as was common law, a single drop of black blood made you black. So, even an octoroon (a mostly white person with one black grandparent, I think) woman could be "discovered" and raped mercilessly, with no protection under the law.

Btw, "interbred"?? Is that how you refer to rape?

(3) Blacks have resided in the US for approx. 400 years, during which they have CHOSEN NOT to return to Africa or elsewhere.

Because we don't know anything about Africa. The slave masters made sure of that, in an effort to make us totally forget who we were. Slaves were beat (and much worse) for speaking their native language, practicing their religions, etc, because the slave owner feared that they were discussing escape plans. We didn't even know which direction we had come (on the ocean) because they kept us underneath for most of the Middle Passage.

Thusly, blacks have very little identification with Africa, aside from that which we carry within ourselves (DNA, certain aspects of our languages, etc).

Case closed.

Not at all.

Monetrary reparations would do nothing for the black community but set-back it's progress another 100 years. It would be nothing more than a short-term, temporary passification of the despair felt by most in the community.

5,000 dollars or whatever it may be, will not stop racism, it will not improve the situation of blacks in this country.

It will not change minds or hearts!

I give reperations with my actions, treatments and awareness. Though I am still pondering the effectiveness and ethicality of that. I sometimes feel that that in itself, is a disservice to the black community.

Do you really want a hand-out? Does charity, and yes, at this time, reperations would be a charity, make one feel good about one's self? I doubt it.

The jews got reperations and a nation. It did not 'right' the holocaust, and mistreatments of those people.

Monetary reperations IMO, is the worst thing the black community could ask for.

Have you considered the law of karma? Some souls will choose a harsh life in order to gain more spiritual growth. Others may have to endure a harsh life in order to pay for something negative they did in a past life. The law of karma is always balanced. You don't have to interfere.

"Karma: Law of Cause and Effect"

People sometimes speak of good karma and bad karma, pleasant and unpleasant. To me there is no such thing as good or bad karma, for the results, the effects of our actions and thoughts, are nothing more nor less than opportunity. That is the key. Karma as opportunity gives everybody the same possibility of growth. Now I don't consider that a heavy load to bear. All we need do is temper our reactions to our circumstances and meet them with the right attitude. But if we are foolish enough to feel revulsion to the so-called unpleasant events of life, we extend the effects of wrong causes further and further until finally we wake up and realize that we are rebelling against nothing but ourselves.

It makes no difference how much suffering we may have in this lifetime -- our karma will never be more than we can handle. Point out an individual with a heavy karmic load, and you will have pointed out a strong soul. The man who is going through real torment is a soul who has earned, by the strength of his inner aspiration, the right to test the metal of himself to the core.

www.theosophy-nw.org...

Slavery was a terrible chapter in the history of the US.

However, it was individuals who bought slaves, not the country. It was also individuals who thought that slavery was bad.

It was the country that finally outlawed slavery.

Yes it takes a long time to correct the wrongs that have been created in the past. The country has slowly been correcting these wrongs.

The question is how to move forward. I hope that you can find an answer.