Confusing relationship concerning the eye of providence and the vatican

I just got back from meeting my relatives in melbourne and visted the local catholic church (constructed in 1905). And directly to my right the glass window depicted the eye of providence as shown:



And this got me thinking of the 'eye of providence' in relation to the 'divine providence' and got me very confused. From what I gather the 'divine providence' is the christian ideology behind the 'eye of providence' (the symbol).

Although the divine providence was first acknowledged in St Thomas Aquinas 's work which is dated around c. 1225 – 1274 (Summa Theologiae) But this had no symbolic representation.

The symbol we know in conspiracy circles emerged apparently circa 17th century which is before the formation of the modern illuminati (bavarian movement).

The vatican alledgedly went to significant measures to condem the group around 1785

So if this is the case why did the symbol start appearing amongst christian circles around the 18th century?

Interesting to note that A. Weishaupt the modern illuminist founder apparently had relations with jesuit education.

Although the illuminati could be a fallacy, it wouldn't be fun to think this way

More info: eye of providence, divine providence

I would appreciate ATS community opinion & help



note: I have more pictures of both the inside and outside of this church.







[edit on 19-2-2007 by Selmer2]

I would have thought this would draw some interest

here is the church view:



all seeing eye window is the first right

[edit on 24-2-2007 by Selmer2]

Originally posted by Selmer2
So if this is the case why did the symbol start appearing amongst christian circles around the 18th century?

The problem is that the bavarian illuminati apparently didn't use the eye in the pyramid/triangle symbol. At least, I have not seen where in the captured bavarian illuminati documents that symbol was used. It seems to be applied to them by people in hindsight.


Also in your pics, isn't that eye in the pyramid en-grailed (the shape of the window section its in)?

note: I have more pictures of both the inside and outside of this church.

Cool, Post 'em! Its great that you saw this and thought it was neat and posted it to ATS, THANKS!

I am not certain that the Bavarian Illuminatti ever actually existed. Now, we can sit and recite quote after quote after quote of Adam Weishaupt's, but that doesn't really prove anything.

The "Remarks and Explanations" of Thomson and Barton are the only explanation of the symbols' meaning. Despite what anti-Masons may believe, there's no reason to doubt the interpretation accepted by the Congress.

The Pyramid signified Strength and Duration: The Eye over it & the Motto allude to the many signal interpositions of providence in favor of the American cause.[6]

Eye

It doesn't seem that many correlate the eye of providence with Catholicism at all. I did a search and the first thing that came up was Freemasonry, another thing that Catholicism has a profound distaste for.



[edit on 25-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

I actually used to think that the illuminati were simply a modern invention too, but I was suprised to find out that there was an actual german esoteric secret society called the Illuminati Order that was in fact existant in bavaria. As far as it wanting to 'overthrow all nations and religions', that seems to have been the propaganda of the church and states at the time.

Indeed, there have definitely been more secret societies that were far more radical and revolutionary than the Illuminati Order, like the Carbonari, or the Sublime and Perfect Masters of the World, or the Adelfi, Guelphs, et al, or even the Sons of Liberty, for that matter.

Here's a painting inside the Vatican.

Sorry for the quick post, but I'm watching a movie.

Originally posted by Nygdan
I actually used to think that the illuminati were simply a modern invention too, but I was suprised to find out that there was an actual german esoteric secret society called the Illuminati Order that was in fact existant in bavaria. As far as it wanting to 'overthrow all nations and religions', that seems to have been the propaganda of the church and states at the time.

It may indeed be a fact that a group by that name did exist.

The word "illuminatti" causes cofusion for most people. There seems to be two separate factions that refer to themselves as the "illuminated ones." One faction deals more with spirituality. The other deals with the political end. It is my belief that the one most are referring to when the say "illuminatti" is the faction that is dealing with political issues.

[edit on 26-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

I'm not entirely convinced that the church you show is in fact Catholic. The picture of the window with the eye doesn't show much of the rest of the window, which appears relatively stark, IMO. I do understand that not all Catholic churches have ornate stained glass, and some have none at all, however.

The picture of the sanctuary isn't too convincing, either -- it could be an Old Catholic, Anglican, or Lutheran church, from what I can tell.

Finding some artistic expression in a single church (or even in a few or several) does not equate to some grand conspiracy or belief, it may just be the expression of the individual artist commisioned to do the work.

Now, if every, or nearly every Catholic chuch had such artwork, that would be another matter...

Originally posted by Nygdan
The problem is that the bavarian illuminati apparently didn't use the eye in the pyramid/triangle symbol. At least, I have not seen where in the captured bavarian illuminati documents that symbol was used. It seems to be applied to them by people in hindsight.

Certainly, imo a common misconception that the "illuminati" is infact the bavarian illuminati controlling world events. I would speculate that it is infact an internet going beyond political/religious leaders and infact manipulating manipulitive groups like these alledged, formalized "black/covert" groups such as order x & y.

Originally posted by NygdanAlso in your pics, isn't that eye in the pyramid en-grailed (the shape of the window section its in)?

Yes & no, I think you are refering to the engrailing of the broad crucifix and that it mimics the eye in context of the whole window. In this case yes, although im not sure if this is what you mean.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by Selmer2
note: I have more pictures of both the inside and outside of this church.

Cool, Post 'em! Its great that you saw this and thought it was neat and posted it to ATS, THANKS!

- Outside, the new church constructed in 1905
- Old church in left background behind government statue, new church at right.
- Plaque on statue (censored out of respect to the local community)
- example of architecture
- example of architecture

[size=3.2]note: I would like the discussion to focus on the more historic side of things rather than the specifics of the this church

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
I am not certain that the Bavarian Illuminatti ever actually existed. Now, we can sit and recite quote after quote after quote of Adam Weishaupt's, but that doesn't really prove anything.

The "Remarks and Explanations" of Thomson and Barton are the only explanation of the symbols' meaning. Despite what anti-Masons may believe, there's no reason to doubt the interpretation accepted by the Congress. The Pyramid signified Strength and Duration: The Eye over it & the Motto allude to the many signal interpositions of providence in favor of the American cause.[6]

Eye

It doesn't seem that many correlate the eye of providence with Catholicism at all. I did a search and the first thing that came up was Freemasonry, another thing that Catholicism has a profound distaste for.

Ditto, im not certain that order if any other order existed specifically. Though imo "illuminati" (broad term) do exist on the basis of increased inequality. Regarding other controversies, imo you source is from a biased reference (MSA).

I agree with what it says although it was severely lacking in theinterpretation side. I don't believe it originated in Masonry, I believe it originated before Masonry. These elements go way back, if it stopped there, it would have no considerable interest except as a link to Masonic intentions & practises.

Originally posted by Nygdan
I actually used to think that the illuminati were simply a modern invention too, but I was suprised to find out that there was an actual german esoteric secret society called the Illuminati Order that was in fact existant in bavaria.

As far as it wanting to 'overthrow all nations and religions', that seems to have been the propaganda of the church and states at the time.

Indeed, there have definitely been more secret societies that were far more radical and revolutionary than the Illuminati Order, like the Carbonari, or the Sublime and Perfect Masters of the World, or the Adelfi, Guelphs, et al, or even the Sons of Liberty, for that matter.

Very hard to get to the root of these things Nygdan most of it is intertwined. Although the modernized CTC idea originated in 17/18th philosophy in Germany.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by Nygdan
I actually used to think that the illuminati were simply a modern invention too, but I was suprised to find out that there was an actual german esoteric secret society called the Illuminati Order that was in fact existant in bavaria.

As far as it wanting to 'overthrow all nations and religions', that seems to have been the propaganda of the church and states at the time.

It may indeed be a fact that a group by that name did exist.

The word "illuminatti" causes cofusion for most people. There seems to be two separate factions that refer to themselves as the "illuminated ones." One faction deals more with spirituality. The other deals with the political end. It is my belief that the one most are referring to when the say "illuminatti" is the faction that is dealing with political issues.

[edit on 26-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by Zhenyghi
I'm not entirely convinced that the church you show is in fact Catholic. The picture of the window with the eye doesn't show much of the rest of the window, which appears relatively stark, IMO. I do understand that not all Catholic churches have ornate stained glass, and some have none at all, however.

The picture of the sanctuary isn't too convincing, either -- it could be an Old Catholic, Anglican, or Lutheran church, from what I can tell.

Finding some artistic expression in a single church (or even in a few or several) does not equate to some grand conspiracy or belief, it may just be the expression of the individual artist commisioned to do the work.

Now, if every, or nearly every Catholic chuch had such artwork, that would be another matter...

My pictures should be auxiliary to the discussion. This thread is focusing on the known history of the topic, not this specific church. I think as far as being individual to the artist I agree it is another possibility .

[edit on 28-2-2007 by Selmer2]

Selmer, very interesting indeed.

There does seem to be a connection between the Vatican and some rather dark brotherhoods. However, exposing them is obviously difficult as Catholics seem to be very proud and ignorant of their heritage (I for one was raised Catholic, but always felt out of place; then I researched some of their foundations and immediately regarded Christianity as sun worship simply put- the all seeing eye fits right into the idea of IDOL worship more or less, a direct contradiction of the supposed 10 commandments).

I believe there to be a connection between the CIA, Vatican, and the Dark Brotherhood, and of course certain Illuminati/Mason type organizations. Gathering proof is a whole different story unfortunately.

Good luck on your research my friend, the light shall shine through the dark once again as it has been prophecized!

bs