Sin

I will lay out my theory on sin.

I think the Christian theory to repent your sins is not quite right. Sin all week long, go to church, repent, and all is forgiven. How far off base is this? It makes no sense. I think the total good of your life (as a whole) will determine what your afterlife/next life will be. Once you sin, you sin, there is no forgiveness or taking it back, it's permenant. As for Karma, I can believe it, though I doubt it erases all of your sins, rather makes it into a lesson so maybe you learn from it.

Now I have never studied religion, nor am I a religious person. I do have an open mind though as long as answers are provided. To me there isn't enough evidence to support the bible for me to believe it. The whole thing just doesn't quite seem right. If anyone has anything to add or suggest to add to this theory or prove me wrong, fell free to post.

Also I must add this is not an attack on religion, this is just simply my opinion. Please feel free to prove me wrong.

I think I will chime in on this one.
Sin, before you go and talk about it you should know what it is. I prefer to think of it based off of the eastern philosopies, which is that thought, speech and action must be in agreeance for it to be an actual downfall. And that to Sin is a trangression against the spritual/moral codes that governs a person. It is not something that can be forgiven so easily as you would put it. Even in Karma and those that believe it, will tell you it takes a while to get rid of negative Karma, as there are lessons that have to be learned from it inorder to avoid it again. And that to truely be forgiven from it you have to have the actual feelings and intentions behind such before that process can start.

Hope this helps.

Sin...simple.

The law is hung on this one thing.
Love the Lord with your whole heart (love yourself)
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Love yourself...you will not sin.

Love is not emotion...is not based on action.

Love is based on acceptance. Based on space, allowing space...for you - your attributes and others. (when spaces collide...well... )

Love is all embrasing and is the only truth, since love accepts it chases the 'sinner' or hate like a 'river of fire'.

So the only sin is that done against ones neighbor...and we only do that by not allowing their space. And furthermore, we do this because ultimately, we do not love ourself...give ourselves space...to much expetation, etc...we should say, "I am that I am." Again, spaces may collide, but that is as it is...and that to is embrased by...Love.

Love not as the world gives.

Peace

dAlen

Sin is a concept, created by religion, to scare the weak minded into believing they have offended God. Thats all it is, A tool of control.

In my life i've made mistakes and done things that have hurt others. I've done things i'd love to be able to take back. One thing i've never done though is sin against God.

The good thing about shedding religion is you get to shed the dogma that goes with it.

I can't wait for someone to say to me, "He that is without sin, cast the first stone." cause I'm going to nail that sucker right between the eyes

I would describe myself as a very religious and spiritual person, and I personally do not believe in sin - at least not in the way some people define it.

I do not believe that there is anything I could possibly do to let GOD down. GOD is too big and powerful for me to be able to disappoint it.

(I also don't see GOD as a person - more of a force - sort of like gravity - is there anything you could do to make gravity sad?)

Of course there are plenty of things I could do to disappoint people or bring harm to the planet - and these I should avoid. I should avoid them because they are wrong, not out of fear that GOD would punish me.

I should, likewise, do the right things simply because they are right - not because I want some sort of award.

I think intent is more important. If you treat me well, do it because it is what you do and it is your nature - not because you think GOD will get you later if you don't. That's just faking it in my opinion.

Ok, so the definition of sin is.......

The dictionary defines it as a breaking of religous or moral codes.

I understand that breaking the religous codes is a concept created by the church. But how about moral codes. Who decides what these are and how do we know for sure. Sure there are the obvious, no killing, stealing, etc....but what about all the other grey areas?

I agree with wellwhatnow with doing it because it's howyou are rather then a reward for how you act. That is just faking it. But in terms of Karma that would probably catch up to you in the long run.

Originally posted by dirty_underground
But how about moral codes. Who decides what these are and how do we know for sure.

There are entire branches of science devoted to this question. Sociology has largely determined that moral codes are simply sets of generally agreed upon ideas. Each group decides their own. They are pretty arbitrary and they do change over time.

In some places it is rude to belch at the dinner table, in other places it would be rude not to do so. Some groups eat dogs, other groups don't.

These "rules" are so varied and subject to change that there is a branch of the study of deviant behaviour that says there is no such thing as deviant behavior. The idea is that for any "rule" you can think up, there is a place and / or time when that rule would not apply.

Examples-:

Murder is wrong - murder in self defense is fine.
Prostitution is wrong - Prostitutes employed by the temple (about 2000 years ago) were doing God's work
Underage sex is wrong - the average age of marriage and childbearing, was at one time, about 14 (there are still cultures in which children are engaged to be married shortly after birth)
Child labor is wrong - average age to enter the work force at one point in history was 14

Talk about gray areas! So, from a sociological perspective, we simply can't be sure what is really right - but we can be sure that it will change in the future.

It is no wonder that people often look to religion to provide a set of guiding principles with which to make choices about behavior.

Underground, what you said reminds me of a saying I have.

"People go to church on Sunday and ask God for forgiveness. On Monday, they do the same things that they just asked forgiveness for on Sunday."

That's saying is so true. I'm not religous but I was thinking about that very thought. How Christians have easily made their sins forgivable by just asking for it. I just don't think it works like that. Once you sin, it stays with you. I guess you just need to make sure your good outweighs your bad. In the end it's your life as a whole that will decide whatever it is you believe that will happen. In my opinion anyway...

Well, underground, I personally believe that God is very willing to forgive people of their tresspasses. The people I have a problem with are those who think that just because they have been "baptized," everything is forgiven before they even do it!! Codswallop!!

[edit on 24-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

From what I've seen of people, few people Sin. Sure, there are bad people in the world who knowingly do Bad Things, but most people don't.

People do stuff that is stupid, weak, prejudiced, self centered, ignorant etc etc. But they rarely set out to do Ill deliberately.

And so from that point of view, I think the idea of Sin is unfair. Condemning people for their built in weaknesses, and only allowing Official Church Representatives to forgive you of those failings.

All you old Catholics out there, do you remember going to Confession as a kid? Remember having to think up 3 Sins to tell the priest? Finding it too hard to come up with true Sins, so using old standbys like "I hit my brother" and "I told mum a lie", even if you didn't do those thing.

Originally posted by dirty_underground
I will lay out my theory on sin.

I think the Christian theory to repent your sins is not quite right. Sin all week long, go to church, repent, and all is forgiven. How far off base is this? It makes no sense.

It's very off-base as it misses the points that are explained in the Bible.

Originally posted by dirty_underground
I think the total good of your life (as a whole) will determine what your afterlife/next life will be. Once you sin, you sin, there is no forgiveness or taking it back, it's permenant. As for Karma, I can believe it, though I doubt it erases all of your sins, rather makes it into a lesson so maybe you learn from it.

Then you don't believe in sin as sin is a Biblical principle.

Originally posted by dirty_underground
Now I have never studied religion, nor am I a religious person. I do have an open mind though as long as answers are provided. To me there isn't enough evidence to support the bible for me to believe it. The whole thing just doesn't quite seem right. If anyone has anything to add or suggest to add to this theory or prove me wrong, fell free to post.

Sure thing. I don't think not studying religion or being religious would disqualify from anything here. I think you can obtain your evidence today, rather than accepting others' word on it.

Originally posted by dirty_underground
Also I must add this is not an attack on religion, this is just simply my opinion. Please feel free to prove me wrong.

Opinions are cool, and contrary to popular believe we can have a progressive discussion using them. You seem to have a fair approach on the matter and would like to do the same.

Originally posted by dAlen
The law is hung on this one thing.
Love the Lord with your whole heart (love yourself)
Love your neighbor as yourself.

This is Biblical.

Originally posted by dAlen
Love yourself...you will not sin.

This is not.

Originally posted by mrwupy
One thing i've never done though is sin against God.

I can't wait for someone to say to me, "He that is without sin, cast the first stone." cause I'm going to nail that sucker right between the eyes

Shall I attempt to demonstrate why this hypocrisy or is it obvious already?

It is apparent that no comments have defined sin so far, so to say yes someone is without sin or no they're not is an attempt to measure according to our own subjectivity instead of the instruction from God.

[edit on 28-2-2007 by saint4God]

As far as a definition of sin... If you have ever broken any of the Ten Commandments, about the only thing I view reedemable from the Old Testament, then you have sinned. We all have broken one or more of the commandments at some point in time. Therefore, we all have sinned.

If we take "Religion" out of the equation and just focus on morals, common sense etc., I'm sure you'll all agree that without any 'guidelines', to getting along with others, there would be complete chaos.

Sin is another word IMO for 'having performed/thought - an uncivil/unkind action towards others/self.

Religions have held society in check because of the word 'sin'. However they tend to go to extremes with 'their interpretations of holy books', and unfortuneatly, have led people down the wrong paths.

If we had decided longggggg ago that there shouldn't be any 'laws' for our actions, we'd be in deep doo doo right now. We all know that.

No one is perfect. We have ALL fallen short of the mark.

It's good to have a spiritual faith in something higher than our selves. It humbles us as NOT being overly egotistical.

Originally posted by TheDuckster
If we take "Religion" out of the equation and just focus on morals, common sense etc., I'm sure you'll all agree that without any 'guidelines', to getting along with others, there would be complete chaos.

I agree that it would get messy if we had no guidelines and that is precisely why we have guidelines. We have mores, folkways, and norms that are not based on religion.

Oh but "sin" is a powerful word for many. It conjures images of demons and nightmares of damnation. It may represent the ultimate failure from which there is no escape. It can be about guilt, abandonment, weakness - all the things we might deplore about being human.

It's not surprising that it could be used to control people.
It's no wonder why many people reject the concept all together.

Hey speaker, it's off-topic, but is the avatar from a game?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
As far as a definition of sin... If you have ever broken any of the Ten Commandments, about the only thing I view reedemable from the Old Testament, then you have sinned. We all have broken one or more of the commandments at some point in time. Therefore, we all have sinned.

Ah, but that's only half the story. Literally. Christ has quite a bit to say about sin that apparently mankind had overlooked for some time:

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." - Matthew 5:21-22

Here it is explained that even a thought can have us commit a sin...not just what we do. I'll stand up and say "guilty as charged, I am a sinner". Fortunately God has a plan for who would otherwise be destined for the fire of hell.

TheDuckster included "thought" in the definition as well, so 20 points for that answer.

I think wellwhatnow does well to describe the gravity of the situation. It is a dangerously scarey thing. However, the whole "mind control booga booga" thing sounds not only unsubstantiated, but silly. Sorry, that's my opinion until proven otherwise. People reject the idea of sin because it's uncomfortable...and people like comfort. But as plenty of people in our ATS community love to constantly remind, the truth can be an uncomfortable thing.


[edit on 28-2-2007 by saint4God]

Hey speaker, it's off-topic, but is the avatar from a game?

To be honest,I am not certain but I think it is off of some computer game or something.

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." - Matthew 5:21-22

Yeah, Jesus certainly had a problem with wrathful people. Lord, have I got a lot to answer for. :shk: Anyway, yeah, you are correct,Saint

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
To be honest,I am not certain but I think it is off of some computer game or something.

The addy for the picture says "mud" which in gaming terms stands for "Mulit-User Dungeon", an old text-based online roleplaying game. Everquest was the first Massively Multi-player Online Roleplaying Game now succeeded by World of Warcraft with nearly ten times the subscribers. Knowing this history does not make me proud, but demontrates that I'm more of an addict than a computer scholar Anyway, cool graphics. Very egyptian-like.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Yeah, Jesus certainly had a problem with wrathful people. Lord, have I got a lot to answer for. :shk:

You and me both brother. But, to see if we can advance these thoughts further, let's recap what we have so far as far as what sin is:

1.) Something done wrong. This is mentioned above as flagrant violations of moral law such as killing, stealing, greed/coveting and other things often found in cartoons with the villain in black with the curly handlebar mustache. Certainly none of us do those things, right? How about office supplies? Have you taken something home from work that is "of no real value anyway" and "work won't miss it"? Is the prospect that these two self-justifications are true no longer make it stealing?
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." Whoops! I get "Desperate Housewives" and such just got busted. The whole "keep up with the Jones' " line of thinking is a sin even in the Old Testament
2.) A wrong thought or feeling. That 10th commandment transitions nicely into this mode of consideration. Couple that with the words of Christ above, the rest of the gospel and epistles and we learn that God doesn't just hear the words, he sees the heart. But surely we cannot change the way we feel, right?