What type of government allows this to happen

- Timeless can answer for him/herself but I am aware that there are several 'categories' of British prison and a category A prison is quite different from a category D or open prison.

I know this, i made a point which you seemed eager to overlook, that the prison system is a soft touch! and gave you relevant information so you can refer to.

- Pretending that 'all prisons' are just like category C & D prisons is both absurd and dishonest, but this is what is done in those tabloid stories.

Nope i never said that cat C & D were the same as cat A prisons, if you read it properly i said ,again prisons were a soft touch

But at least people with half a clue know what this 'holiday camp' rubbish is based upon,
which is?who?...you who believe everything written in a goverment report

If you think stuffing our prisons with the most minor offenders is helping the our society and justice system then I suppose you might have something of a point.
a crime is a crime..isnt it? if it warrents handing out a custodial sentance then so be it.

But questioning the jailing the most petty offenders (TV licence dodgers or white collar criminals for instance) is hardly new and many many people fully agree that a major part of our prison over-crowding problem is because they have many people there who should not have been sent there in the 1st place.
so am i led to believe that the reasons our prisons are full up is that you think there are too many tax dodgers & white colar criminals that have been imprisoned, And not murderers, rapists, and burgulars?

or we can move to a more 'Euro' system where crime is much lower and the justice system far smaller and far cheaper.
which is what sminkey ? please explain

(but I suspect what you really mean is that you will ignore the figures you don't like but will be happy to use those you do like to try and score party political 'points')
Wrong again sminkey!, as i have said all along i dont believe any of the figures, its you that keep refering to stats, i was giving you an example of how figures can and will be different, and as to me trying to "score party political points"...what party am i trying to score points for ? because i am not aligned to any political party, unlike yourself

Do you have you own (trustworthy) sources of statistics?
(the Daily Mail, perhaps?
God No..that is far too interlectual for me to read

Hundreds of thousands of people all across the UK, involved in the legal and statistic side of this, are all liars cos some cop somewhere sometime was caught doing something wrong (it was reported somewhere).
you really ought to go back over what you write..it was you who brought up the fact "do i think from the village bobby upwards are corrupt" i answered yes and showed you one point in question

Watch out for that paranoia sm!
Dont need to mate, just read your party political posts

Tell you what sm, why not call the Police and contact their mortgage company, eh?
thats scrapping the barrel, i expected more from you

Tony Blair's own earnings (once out of office) will skyrocket as he does the lecture circuit and has a globally best-selling autobiography?
what are you suggesting that its ok for him to get a mortgage on his as yet unearned income, but what he "might" earn when out of office? well thats a new way to get round the 3 x your salary mortgage that "normal people have to rely on when applying .

How, in a free society, is (any) Gov meant to have complete 'control' over individuals within that society?
i said control over crime not complete control over individuals..there is a difference....

Do you travel the country talking to Police, Judges, Magistrates, Prison staff & communities etc across the nation?
No i dont, thats being stupid (again), but then i dont rely on those so-called "official stats" either

You simply have a set of views in accordance with your political beliefs.
which is and are what sminkey?

You slammed all UK prisons as "soft" - despite no personal experience - and backed this up with a Home Office statement that out of our record 80,000+ prison population 1,536 of them have "access" to satellite TV.

Like I said, there's no indication of which category prison these inmates are in.

On what grounds do you claim all category a & b prisons "soft"?
Categories c & d are intended to be less harsh and prepare prisoners nearing release for the life outside.

You also seem to have a blind-spot when it comes to accepting that minor and petty criminal are clogging the system here.

The 'Euro' system fundamentally revolves around a society that is far more equal.
It's net effect is that it 'breeds' less crime.
The facts (whether you care for them or not) is that every single EU country has a lower level of recorded crime and a smaller and far less expensive prison system with a lower prison population than the UK.

But if the nub of this is that you refuse to believe any official stats then we really have little common ground to debate anything.

A healthy scepticism is one thing but a blanket claim that 'it's all lies' is just thoroughly irrational.

Like I said you merely hop from dismissing one set of records to opportunistically throwing whatever you believe suits your 'sky falling in' outlook.

Dismissing all official records on the grounds that you unearthed an example of a cop doing something wrong (you couldn't have looked too hard it's hardly a unique event) is just absurd IMO.

You might as well take up reading the tea-leaves to gauge how the world is going in that case.

How do you know that what you read and hear and choose to believe is true?
....and, again as I said, that way lies paranoia but that is your choice to make.

(I'm interested in just this one is supposed to work?
Watch out for that paranoia sm!
Dont need to mate, just read your party political posts )

what are you suggesting that its ok for him to get a mortgage on his as yet unearned income, but what he "might" earn when out of office? well thats a new way to get round the 3 x your salary mortgage that "normal people have to rely on when applying .

- No sm.

What I am saying outright is that your attempt to shoe-horn this into a parallel of what you or I might experience is ridiculous.

There is no equivalence and crying that 'it's not fair' because it's not the same is just missing the point, it isn't the same.

You have no clue what income or security is being generated by the existing properties the Blair's own and you have no idea what arrangements they have agreed with the banks.

It might not go down too well with you but of course the banks do indeed have 'different' arrangements for the ultra wealthy.......but seeing as they are private concerns and not nationalised that is between them and their clients
(which one might have supposed was a good thing if you're so anti-state interference and all.....or is just that another opportunistic attitude that gets ignored when it comes to Labour people and the PM in particular?).

Trying to score petty party political points on this one really is ludicrous......as is the not very veiled hint of something not quite legal.
But it's typical Daily Mail/Telegraph fare.

Like I said, it's all out in public, everybody either knows or can find out about it so how come no official complaints has been made and a Police investigation begun, hmmmm?

You could be that man sm,
all it takes is an official complaint to the Police from a member of the public........or do you think the reason why this has not been leaped upon might be because, whilst it gets Mail/Telegraph readers all hot and bothered shouting the odds about things they really know nothing about, there has been nothing illegal or underhand at all?

Why didn't the DM (or one of the opposition political parties.....like the SNP has done with the Peerages investigation) make a formal complaint to the Police, hmmmm?

You'd think the mortgage companies would be the first to complain if something fishy had gone on
(and you can't say these things never come to light or just would be ignored, look at what happened to Peter Mandelson, his mortgage and an undeclared loan from a personal friend.......I wonder how many 'ordinary' people have ever raised money for a deposit from friends and family and didn't declare it, eh? I wonder how many of them were forced to leave their job because off it?).

If anything illegal had gone on (or even something 'not quite right' as we saw in the case of Peter M)
the tory press would have been all over Blair and simply would never have let it go.

The truth is, if there was any truth in it, Tony Blair would have been forced to resign in a flash - the fact that this business has never gotten anywhere near being that serious tells you all you need to know.

It's a crock, it's pure DM tittle tattle tweaking the prejudices of their readership who get alll warm and fuzzy believing the worst when it comes to a successful & wealthy Labour guy, especially if it's the PM!
(but who never bat an eyelid and often cheer on anyone else.)

You simply have a set of views in accordance with your political beliefs.
which is and are what sminkey?

- Well whatever the detail they seem to revolve around believing nothing but the worst and dismissing all info that is to the contrary, no matter where it comes from.


[edit on 17-2-2007 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by spymaster
I dont care who is in government i just want all this S**t to STOP!!!

spymaster, you do seem pretty agitated by this matter and it is clear that you do not believe that this Government is doing anything to improve matters.

So here's a simple question. What have you done to try to improve the situation?

As someone who takes the matter so seriously and is convinced that the entire establishment that administers our justice system and the Office for National Statistics is corrupt I am left to wonder if you have tried in some small way to make a difference.

I'm not trying to be smart here I really am interested if you, as someone who holds very strong views, has actually taken any steps to try to begin to chip away at a problem which you obviously believe is desperately serious.

For instance, are you a member of a political party, have you lobbied your MP, have you considered standing in a local election, are you a Special Constable, are you a member of any organisations which campaign for changes in the justice system, do you take part in any local activities to try to help young offenders or young people generally, are you a Scout or other youth group leader, have you ever considered becoming a prison visitor?

Timeless:
So here's a simple question. What have you done to try to improve the situation?
"to be perfectly honest mate, myself i have done abslutely nothing to try to improve this situation"

I'm not trying to be smart here I really am interested if you, as someone who holds very strong views, has actually taken any steps to try to begin to chip away at a problem which you obviously believe is desperately serious.
"well thankyou for your honsesty timeless, i will tell you why i feel so angry at things at the moment, i have two children a girl of 13 who likes to go out with her mates shopping etc, and i fear for their saftey at all times, i have a son of 18, and in september 06 was stabbed in the neck, nearly killing him , YES, whilst he was in a cue to get in a nightclub in this area(the fight was inside the club as the doorstaff got the culprits out the club they lashed out at everyone standing in the cue, the SCUM that done this was not even supposed to be in this country, the police know who they are, despite the incident being captured by the local council controled CCTV, the clubs CCTV and the Police operated CCTV, nothing has happened to these S***ts, so please tell me where the justice is, i nearly lost my son to a peice of S**t 0.5mm away from his jugular..thats why im so bloody annoyed

For instance, are you a member of a political party
nope im not although i should be , it certanily wouldnt be labour or CONServative

Thanks for that answer spymaster. I have two girls aged 18 and 21 and I thank God just about every day that they have turned out as intelligent, responsible kids whose company I really enjoy and I think any parent will understand your anger given the incident that your son was involved in.

I asked the question because my original assertion back at the beginning of this thread was that it was futile to solely blame the Government for long terms shifts in the values and attitudes of society, we all have to look at ourselves. That, of course, is not to say that if you started running a youth club your son would be protected from evil thugs, that would be utterly fatuous, but there is a huge proportion of society which seems to want to berate everyone else and every element of government for society's ills without lifting a finger to help themselves and I firmly believe that this attitude has been instrumental in bringing about some of the most negative changes we have witnessed in the last thirty years.

Like I said, I wasn't trying to be smart by asking the question for the simple reason that, with the exception of my sterling efforts in raising two fine responsible members of the human race who I love and cherish desperately I would also be unable to give a positive response to any of the suggestions I made, not a damned one.

So I got to thinking about the debate that you and I and Sminkey were having about prison conditions and it was obvious that we were all prepared to pass comment on prison life without ever having been in one and, from my point of view at least, with lots of preconceived ideas about what it was like. So last night I determined that I would volunteer to become a prison visitor, probably at Winchester prison which is closest to me, and learn a little more about the system and maybe, just maybe give something of my comfortable life back to society.

I'll let you know how I get on.

Timeless, once again thankyou for honesty and time.
I know from your well answered responses posed to my original questions , that it does bother you and (having two girls, it should), you have taken the time to reply to these questions with "down to earth" answers.

Without going into too much detail on an open board i would like to say this:
Although myself , i have never been in prison, i have visited friends who have been in prison, one particular friend was involved in what some might call "white colar crime"..a crime never the less, now he was in an open prison, it was his first offence but "a major one" and he got sentanced to 5yrs, he was released after serving only 21 months of this sentance.
TBO i didnt think he would last in there? and for a while was put on "suicide watch", and i know that what i will say next is going against everything that ive moaned about , but when he was released early i was happy for him.
But like i said previously, that isnt really a deterrant for criminals.

On the other side of the coin, you have the more serious criminals, of which again i have visited, (i am not involved in any criminal activity myself) but a friend of mine was involved in an very major incident at XXXX Prison a good few yrs back, he was put into the highest level a prison within the prison, and this is the truth, he never had it so easy!!!!!!!!!
There were only 8 of them in this mini prison, but Excersise machines, picked their own food, tv etc so this was never a deterrant for him.

Unfortunatley, whilst i admire you for actually getting up and doing something,(while i sit here and continue to moan) i really dont feel that "we can change" the system.
But we can change the government.

My arguement all along has been with the government, not with the people, per say,the government cannot keep allowing to let high risk and or repeat offenders back onto the streets early just because they have shown that during their behavioural classes in prison they showed they are getting better...please.

Criminals like Paedophiles Cannot be rehabiltated, i saw on another thread a quote to giving them some form of "drug or tablet", come on , these people are never going to stop doing what they do, and when the law allows for them to be released on good behaviour or for social reports that just smacks a "slap in the face" for the victims and their families.

you stated "but there is a huge proportion of society which seems to want to berate everyone else and every element of government for society's ills without lifting a finger to help themselves"

this is very true and i will hold my hand up and admit to a degree that i am one of those people, but i never wanted this government in the first place, and i am therefor willing to accuse (rightly or wrongly) this government for the situtation we find ourselves in now

you state "So last night I determined that I would volunteer to become a prison visitor,"
i admire you for that!

Whilst writing this one thing came to mind?
If you do go ahead and become a Prison visitor, (now i do not know how this system works) but lets just say you are given a visit to see Mr X, and after chatting with him, you find out that he is a Paedophile or a rapist, how would you feel about that?

You also state "just maybe give something of my comfortable life back to society. "
again i understand what you are saying timeless, but im sure that your family would agree that you have probably worked hard all your life to obtain "that comfortable" life and havent been out robbing or mugging to obtain this?

I think if the truth was known, i really am that person you described in your last post the one who has done nothing to eliviate the problem, but moans, but i cannot see what we can do about it, only the government or a change in government would be able to do this ...perhaps im wrong?

thanks.

I don't see why people should have to 'give something back' or in some way justify their right to a peaceful existence just because they want to be able to walk a street in safety, or feel safe from criminal activity. Most people work hard and keep the law, that should be enough justification.

We can speculate about a whole raft of influences to make sense of what's happening in todays society but, whatever we do to try to miitigate that, the bottom line is that if their is no effective system to keep us safe from wrongdoing, wrongdoing will always be a major problem. There is not an effective system at present.

But again it points to this covert prejudice, if your one of the decent, law abiding majority the onus is on you to be that much more understanding, that much more tolerant, to take the bulk of the burden, to control your ange while the criminal has an army of do gooders making excuses for his behaviour, his upbringing, his attitude which he continues to inflict on the rest of us in scattergun bursts. In general the do gooders do not have to deal with the consequences of this at grass roots level.

It's not right.

[edit on 18-2-2007 by ubermunche]

Originally posted by ubermunche
I don't see why people should have to 'give something back' or in some way justify their right to a peaceful existence just because they want to be able to walk a street in safety, or feel safe from criminal activity. Most people work hard and keep the law, that should be enough justification.

I understand why you take that stance but, unfortunately, we have to deal with reality and not an idealised view of the world.

The fact is that small disruptive influences in a complex system like a Western liberal democracy can cause disproportionate disruption because of the high levels of individual freedom and trust that we generally enjoy. The decent members of society, (to use a simplistic description), therefore have a simple choice, do they accept disruption and wrongdoing and complain because some other entity like Government is not doing enough or do they try to influence the situation. The wrongdoing is an inevitable fact the question is how do we deal with it effectively.

Somewhere above spymaster said that we can't change society but we can change the Government; now that's all very well bu what if Government can't change society what will we have gained by venting our frustration in this way.

Fundementally I don't believe that Governments can change society, certainly not in the short term. What they can do is facilitate and encourage change by incentivising certain patterns of behaviour and disincentivising others which is a help but it's not the whole story. I believe that only society at large can enforce change, it rarely does it consciously just as the descent to some of our present woes has not resulted from a conscious decision to allow lawlessness and lack of personal responsibility to permeate so many of our communities, but rather from a genearl apathy towards certain standards of behaviour.

If we, society at large, can begin to reverse that apathy and accept the personal responsibility of each of us to contribute to our communities rather than just to ourselves we still have a chance to reverse many of the bad things we see around us. It won't be quick and we may never be able to directly link change to the specific actions that each of us has taken but if we all just wait for someone else to do it then there will be no change.

Originally posted by timeless test

I understand why you take that stance but, unfortunately, we have to deal with reality and not an idealised view of the world.

With the utmost and genuinely meant respect to you Timeless but what a sad state of affairs we’ve now reached that being able to feel relatively safe from things such as arbitary violence, thuggish acts and anti social behaviour is now regarded as some kind of fairytale ideal.

The fact is that small disruptive influences in a complex system like a Western liberal democracy can cause disproportionate disruption because of the high levels of individual freedom and trust that we generally enjoy. The decent members of society, (to use a simplistic description), therefore have a simple choice, do they accept disruption and wrongdoing and complain because some other entity like Government is not doing enough or do they try to influence the situation. The wrongdoing is an inevitable fact the question is how do we deal with it effectively.

It depends on how we define influencing the situation. I think it was previously mentioned that becoming a community policeman, working with young offenders or prison visiting were all options we as citizens could take and become engaged with. Granted a healthy community/society is one where we are all willing to invest, to varying degrees. Some reservations I have though, we’re not all able to get involved these days, simply having the time between working, keeping the bills paid and caring for your own family can be time consuming enough. Whereas attending your local neighbourhood watch meetings, bothering to keep a look out for your neighbours and taking note of what’s going on in your locality and acting on concerns is something we all need to accept and take on board but taking on such intensive roles as working with offenders or community policing requires a certain character type to which I and a great many certainly wouldn’t be suited, nor should we have to be.

It’s a slippery slope, making excuses for the state of affairs and foisting the responsibility onto the least empowered members, while those who have the resources and wherewithal such as politicians, judiciary and law enforcement neatly side step there obligations. In all instances we can only make a difference when we receive the support of those bodies. This is a democracy and that means it should at least try to maintain a healthy balance between personal freedom and accountability, I can only adopt personal responsibility, I can’t enforce accountability, it’s not my job that‘s where those bodies come in. This as far as I’m concerned is where the system has failed utterly, at least where certain sections of society are concerned.

Fundementally I don't believe that Governments can change society, certainly not in the short term. What they can do is facilitate and encourage change by incentivising certain patterns of behaviour and disincentivising others which is a help but it's not the whole story. I believe that only society at large can enforce change, it rarely does it consciously just as the descent to some of our present woes has not resulted from a conscious decision to allow lawlessness and lack of personal responsibility to permeate so many of our communities, but rather from a genearl apathy towards certain standards of behaviour.

But politically those with the power to enable seem so disconnected from the day to day concerns of society or else they are the ones who have facilitated apathy in the first place through lack of political will. Your average Joe has been saying for years that the level of lawlessness has been increasing, that sentences are too lenient and we need to see community based beat policing reintroduced only to be chided about his paranoia and fed smug assertions rather than any attempt being made to see the trends he has identified and pre-empt them. Without meaning to stoop to melodrama lives have been wrecked while the perpetrators remain coddled and/or get off scot free. Why would I want to work with offenders if the said offender gets support and understanding on my own time then simply goes out to commit more acts because the message from the judiciary tells him repeatedly that if crime doesn’t exactly pay, it’s a lucrative business with precious few penalties. I’m a human being not an angel. I’d probably end up so frustrated and angry I’d kill him myself.

If we, society at large, can begin to reverse that apathy and accept the personal responsibility of each of us to contribute to our communities rather than just to ourselves we still have a chance to reverse many of the bad things we see around us. It won't be quick and we may never be able to directly link change to the specific actions that each of us has taken but if we all just wait for someone else to do it then there will be no change.

I agree completely, the problem I see with the present situation (which is my subjective opinion admittedly) is that the onus has been so relentlessly placed on the law abiding and so negligently excused with the non law abiding that we’re now facing tolerance fatigue coupled with fear anger and frustration, a dangerous mix. Communities may start accepting responsibility to tackle this but in all the wrong ways.

Ummmmmm,

I don't think I actually said that "being able to feel relatively safe from things such as arbitary violence, thuggish acts and anti social behaviour is now regarded as some kind of fairytale ideal", in fact I'm really absolutely sure that this is not the case. The number of areas where it is genuinely unsafe in the country are really very few and I don't think that there's too much new in some parts of some cities being more than a bit dodgy.

I was only trying to make the point that no matter how safe our environment may be there will always be incidents of lawlessness such as burglary, petty theft and vandalism which we can either tolerate or not.

I think you made a very good point at the end of your post regarding tolerance fatigue and the infamous paedophile vigilanteism we saw a few years ago after the NoTW's inane name and shame campaign just underlines the risks we face. Somehow we have to translate at least some of that passionate objection we saw to peadophiles into opposition, albeit somewhat less violent, to street violence and burglary etc.

You are so right incidentally that many of us simply don't have the time to dedicate to activities outside of our families and may well feel unsuited to doing so anyway but how many of us can honstly say that we could not do just a little more or take just a little more interest in what goes on in some of the darker areas of our towns and cities?

Timeless, the 'fairy tale' was my bit of poetic licence and not meant to try and twist your words, forgive me, a hangover from the latest ATS writing contest.

Well I'm glad we can at least understand each others point of veiw, if not agree fully. The allusion to vigilante acts is one that I seriously worry about but conversly, based on some very ongoing, serious local events, have some sympathy for, not because people may act primarily from anger but a very real sense that no one else is going to protect them. Hopefully it wont come to that because that is the real failure of law and order to me. This personal experience links to why I disagree with certain opinions regarding the discrepency in perception, fear and actuality of crime.

I agree with you fully in that all of us can do a little more to help improve the situation but again based on experience with- for want of a better description- 'do gooders' I worry that this observation is open to manipulation and the above mentioned side stepping of responsibility. At this point in time I have very little faith in either govt, judiciary or law enforcement agencies to put the needs of the majority above political dogma or expediency. Cynical maybe but with plenty of reason to be.

Nothing wrong whatever with a healthy dose of cynicsm as far as any Government is concerned.

I was actually quite pleased to see signs of some local action in South London with people picketing shops which they say are at the centre of the supply of guns. There is a delicate balance between this action and the vigilante approach, or between a pressure group and a bunch of enraged citizens with flaming torches and pitchforks but at least there were some signs of a desire to change something.

As long as the pressure groups do not adopt stupid names horribly contrived to provide sickly acronyms ("MAMA", Mothers Against Murder and Aggression springs to mind), then I have no problem with that approach.