Tonopah > Area 51

Forgive me for not providing a more elaborate topic. Just research panoramic photographic pictures of both the bases at Groom Lake and the Tonopah Test Range Airport. Spend about 15 minutes looking at both pictures and compare.

Is it just me or is TTRA a hell of a lot more interesting? I'm convinced that the base at Groom Lake is just an r&d installation and nothing more. On the other hand I really believe TTRA is the real deal as far as experimental aircraft is concerned. Isn't that was most people are fascinated with "Area 51" for--experimental aircraft? Groom Lake hangers aren't used. The last satellite photo of Groom Lake shows a Janet parked in front of HANGER 18 for facks sake and the 2005 IKONOS shows snow that isn't even shoved in front of hanger 9 and its neighbors. Folks, there are no expiremental aircraft at Groom Lake from what I can tell.

Anyway, it's just a thought. I'd rather let the experts share their opinion on the subject. I have no security clearance.I have no first hand knowledge of Groom Lake like everyone here at this forum.

I would appreciate your comments.

[edit on 14-2-2007 by Cobra1982]

TTR is used to test experimental aircraft, but it is not as secret as Groom Lake and is more easily observed. For this reason some planes may be tested there but the real interesting stuff is still left to the guys ate Groom Lake.

Your statement that the hangars at Groom aren't used anymore just isnt true. Infact the current hangars have recently been extended and there are pics online of the hangar doors being openned and shut.

I havent seen the 2005 IKONOS so I cant comment on it (where did you see it btw?) but the current Google Earth images dont really show a JANET "parked" in front on hanagr 18! I'd say it was being pulled out of hangar 18, its hardly a useful or easily accessed parking space.

The picture with the snow at Groom Lake was taken on Saturday, 22 December 2001. There is usually little or no activity at the base on weekends, so it should be no great surprise the snow hadn't been shoveled. Also, there may have been no program activity in those hangars at that time.

The same picture showed that re-paving work previously observed at the JANET ramp had been completed, and there now appeared to be similar construction at the ramp west of Hangars 20 through 23. There were also new markings designating the South Delta Taxiway as runway 12/30. Most of the older fuel tanks south of Hangars 9 through 16 had been removed , and were being replaced two large new tanks.

Photos taken in 2003 showed construction of a new Center Taxiway. The most recent (2005) images show that Hangar 19 had tripled in length and a new hangar (presumably Hangar 24) had been built next to Hangar 9 on the Southend Ramp.

You don't add hangars unless you need them. It is expensive to build taxiways and re-pave parking ramps. The expense is only justified if there are vital programs to support with this infrastructure.

Tonopah Test Range is indeed interesting, but it is indded visible from numerous points on public land. It is not as secure as Groom and lacks many of the flight-test support infrastructure and unique test facilities.

Most of the real secret activity (within the Nevada Test Site proper) these days is conducted from Sandia, a very large facility with at least 3 runways that is located about 35 miles west north west of Groom Lake to the southeast of Gold Reed. Other than a square cloud located directly over this facility in GoogleEarth there is no other indication of its presence. GoggleEarth provides only very old satellite photos for much of this area as there is no indication of the roads , man camps, hangars and other buildings located at Sandia.

The dry lake bed located about 15 n.m. to the northeast of Sandia is the location of some other secret facility about which I have absolutely no information other than something very secret is located there the construction of which started in 1985.

If there is indeed a facility 35 miles W-NW of Groom, it should be easy enough to verify. Someone just needs to pony up the dough for a new satellite image. There may also be some older imagery that hasn't been posted on Google Earth or any other sites yet.

Originally posted by johnlear
Most of the real secret activity (within the Nevada Test Site proper) these days is conducted from Sandia, a very large facility with at least 3 runways that is located about 35 miles west north west of Groom Lake to the southeast of Gold Reed. Other than a square cloud located directly over this facility in GoogleEarth there is no other indication of its presence. GoggleEarth provides only very old satellite photos for much of this area as there is no indication of the roads , man camps, hangars and other buildings located at Sandia.

If I'm looking at the right place, why would they want to build a large 3 runway base on a mountain ridge? That would be ridiculously difficult yet offer no advantages over, say building it on the lakebed close by. One of the reasons Groom Lake is a perfect test site is its large smooth lakebed. A mountain ridge offers no such advantage.

Shadowhawk is right, there must be more than just the single satellite image displayed on GE, and there is on Yahoo Maps. See here:
maps.yahoo.com...=s&trf=0&lon=-116.3481&lat=37.7153&mag=5

Originally posted by gfad
If I'm looking at the right place, why would they want to build a large 3 runway base on a mountain ridge? That would be ridiculously difficult yet offer no advantages over, say building it on the lakebed close by. One of the reasons Groom Lake is a perfect test site is its large smooth lakebed. A mountain ridge offers no such advantage.

I'm not sure where you got the runway on the ridge story, maybe I wasn't clear. There are several parts to Sandia which since 1980 has grown into an enormous facility that is very spread out.

The original operations facility was built inside the mountain ridge next to Silent Spring. That was completed in 1987.

There were 2 parallel runways and 1 north south runway out on the desert flats northwest of Sandia, southeast of Gold Reed. There was a huge hangar that was divided in the middle with a wall. On one side was our foreign inventory aircraft and on the other side I don't know what. Sometimes after an airplane landed on the strip, the runways would be covered with dirt and graded smooth.

That was 20 years ago and today they have a much more effective way of hiding runways. Pilots report that on short final, the terrain 'unzips' and a runway appears.

As I mentioned in a previous post there is another facililty or maybe part of Sandia on the dry lake 15 n.m. to the northeast of Sandia.

Originally posted by Shadowhawk
The picture with the snow at Groom Lake was taken on Saturday, 22 December 2001. There is usually little or no activity at the base on weekends, so it should be no great surprise the snow hadn't been shoveled. Also, there may have been no program activity in those hangars at that time.

The same picture showed that re-paving work previously observed at the JANET ramp had been completed, and there now appeared to be similar construction at the ramp west of Hangars 20 through 23. There were also new markings designating the South Delta Taxiway as runway 12/30. Most of the older fuel tanks south of Hangars 9 through 16 had been removed , and were being replaced two large new tanks.

Photos taken in 2003 showed construction of a new Center Taxiway. The most recent (2005) images show that Hangar 19 had tripled in length and a new hangar (presumably Hangar 24) had been built next to Hangar 9 on the Southend Ramp.

You don't add hangars unless you need them. It is expensive to build taxiways and re-pave parking ramps. The expense is only justified if there are vital programs to support with this infrastructure.

Tonopah Test Range is indeed interesting, but it is indded visible from numerous points on public land. It is not as secure as Groom and lacks many of the flight-test support infrastructure and unique test facilities.

Thank you for clearing those up for me.

I was going to start a new topic about Hanger 19 because there are two place markers on google earth that suggest two new extensions. I forgot that dreamland has the 2005 pano of the base at Groom Lake that shows the expansion.

I used to have the high res 2001 sat image of Groom Lake but lost it. Do you know where I could get one? I really miss not having one.

Cobra1982, the December 2001 image of Groom Lake is posted on Dreamland Resort.

Here is the link:

www.dreamlandresort.com...

The 2005 image has not been posted on the web as far as I know. Too bad. It provides a nice view of the new Southend hangar, extended Hangar 19 and the new H-19 turnaround pad. The mysterious tower west of the sump ponds is also visible.

Originally posted by gfad

Originally posted by johnlear
Most of the real secret activity (within the Nevada Test Site proper) these days is conducted from Sandia, a very large facility with at least 3 runways that is located about 35 miles west north west of Groom Lake to the southeast of Gold Reed. Other than a square cloud located directly over this facility in GoogleEarth there is no other indication of its presence. GoggleEarth provides only very old satellite photos for much of this area as there is no indication of the roads , man camps, hangars and other buildings located at Sandia.

If I'm looking at the right place, why would they want to build a large 3 runway base on a mountain ridge? That would be ridiculously difficult yet offer no advantages over, say building it on the lakebed close by. One of the reasons Groom Lake is a perfect test site is its large smooth lakebed. A mountain ridge offers no such advantage.

Shadowhawk is right, there must be more than just the single satellite image displayed on GE, and there is on Yahoo Maps. See here:
maps.yahoo.com...=s&trf=0&lon=-116.3481&lat=37.7153&mag=5

I'm pretty lost myself. I found patches of clouds 35 miles n, ne of the base at Groom Lake. I then went over the yahoo maps in order to see the terrain below the clouds and all I see are mountains that are not suitable for any runway. I can't find Sadia to begin with. Gold Reed and Silent Spring are not to be found from what I've seen.

Maybe you could help us out Mr. Lear with coordinates. Thank you.

This will give you a idea of where Sandia is located in relation to TTR and Groom Lake.. The Southeastern portion of the green circle (above Sandia) is where the main underground base up under the east ridge in Silent Canyon. The northwestern part of the circle is located in the desert area, not in the mountains, but the desert area which is flat and is where the runways and hangar facilities are located.

The square cloud in the 4 o'clock position of the left green circle is a photoshopped fake cloud with a photoshopped fake shadow. I don't what it covers but obviously something we are not supposed to see (so, I would appreciate it if you would not look too hard.).

The green circle to the northeast is where another secret facility is located. I don't know too much about it but it was being built after the initial construction of Sandia was being complete.

Originally posted by johnlear
This will give you a idea of where Sandia is located in relation to TTR and Groom Lake.. The Southeastern portion of the green circle (above Sandia) is where the main underground base up under the east ridge in Silent Canyon. The northwestern part of the circle is located in the desert area, not in the mountains, but the desert area which is flat and is where the runways and hangar facilities are located.

The square cloud in the 4 o'clock position of the left green circle is a photoshopped fake cloud with a photoshopped fake shadow. I don't what it covers but obviously something we are not supposed to see (so, I would appreciate it if you would not look too hard.

).

The green circle to the northeast is where another secret facility is located. I don't know too much about it but it was being built after the initial construction of Sandia was being complete.

Mr. Lear, there's nothing there. No runways and no hangers.

Those aren't photoshoped clouds and photoshoped shadows. Unless the other dozen clouds and shadows in the mountain range east of TTR are also photoshoped I have no reason to belive the clouds and shadows are manufactured around your secret bases. Is it just me or am I just looking at mountains and dry lakes?

You claim these bases were built alomst 20 years ago. The sat images are a decond older and show no bases, no runways, and no hangers.

What am I missing here?

Originally posted by Cobra1982
You claim these bases were built alomst 20 years ago. The sat images are a decond older and show no bases, no runways, and no hangers.

What am I missing here?

Nothing, I guess. Must have been my imagination.

That's it, that's your response?

Are you going to walk the walk?

Originally posted by Cobra1982
That's it, that's your response?

Yeah, I mean you're right. Theres nothing there. I see that now. I must have confused it with something else. Sorry. I'm going back to the moon.

I'm not right by any means.

I assume you're going to your secret base on the moon.

Im going to have to go with the other guy.

Look at the location you pointed out. The actual mountain range has NO roads or anything leading to it, no terrain conducive to runways. Also, look at its proximity to the nuclear bomb tests to the south, maybe they did not spill any radiation, but if they did I would think that area would be uninhabitable?

and that dry lake bed has a bomb sight in it

I believe John, in years to come I'm sure that Sandia will become aswell known as A51.

if you use windows Live maps you can zoom right in on the location that John Lear mentions.

there does seem to be a few things around that area ,,,,ie. between the two green circles that John highlighted.

snoopyuk

I just don't see it. The circle marked "Sandia" is nothing but rugged terrain without roads or facilities. The other circle, marked "possible large secret facility," is just a bombing target. The surrounding areas contain other evidence of live bombing.