Win 250,000 Points: What Are The Top-5 9/11 Conspiracies?

Originally posted by Caustic Logic

Originally posted by 2l82sk8
I'm still trudging along though...going for broke for that 911 dork title.

I have chosen to focus on more concrete tasks myself. I suggested to SO splitting it up, letting five people each win 50,000 by each focusing on one point, a team effort with do-able parts for each.

Yeah well, I offered to collaborrate with others but no one was interested.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
This total competition to write up fifty versions of something beyond most of our abilities has sucked a lot of energy. A week and no response. Please, don't knock yourself out.

I don't mind knocking myself out, unfortunately my Dad died on the 6th and that pretty much took the wind out of my sails and reprioritized my life as I left on the 7th to travel accross country to be with family and speak at his funeral. I'm back now, so I thought I'd check in here to see who had won

but I realize now...the Overlord is probably still waiting with baited breath himself for my promised next entry!



Skeptic, M'Lord, I don't know if I've got anything left, so proceed without another entry from me if you must...I won anyway didn't I?

edit for grammatical error

[edit on 16-3-2007 by 2l82sk8]

Here is my input. I hope you enjoy.

5. Why the Clinton administration ALLOWED terrorists to hit us time and again leading up to 9/11 without doing a darned thing to catch or stop this band of killers.

4. Why so many CTer's deny the FEMA and NIST reports. What is the true purpose of this defamation of agency?

3. Why has the American public NOT been told that American Airlines flight 587 ( Nov 12 - 2001 ) and TWA flight 800 ( July 17 - 1996 ) were acts of terrorism. ( al quada was responsible for both + 9/11 )

2. *checking sources will edit later*

1. What is the REAL agenda of the folks leading ( or misleading ) the way of the so-called 'truth seekers"? Is their main goal really to destablize and demoralize an entire country by planting seeds of doubt about our leaders in the minds of my fellow countrymen?

Just my MidWest take on the situation!

M.Agenda!

The real 9/11 conspiracies

1. Flight 93 (Cheney, Mineta and the mystery sailor)
2. Flight 93 (The explosion reported by passengers prior to crashing)
3. Flight 587(this was part of wave 2 of 9/11, shoe bombing, covered up)
4. Where is the evidence of thermite or demoltion in WTC1,2 or 7? (residue or at least a blasting cap)
5. What is the true purpose of the 9/11 truth movement?

This are the only true things that come to mind on 9/11. Flight 93 was covered up because we downed it.
Flight 587 was another terror attack, and if released, would have 'destroyed' commercial industry (airlines,travel,hospitality,commerce)
I have yet to be shown anything other than the same old pictures when it comes to the thermite or demo theories.
There is something more to the 9/11 Truth movement, and I think it is religious in nature.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Win 250,000 ATS Points!

--- original post ---

A question for our members who are adept at 9/11 conspiracy issues and details.

If you could list the top-5 concise issues that shed doubt on the official story of 9/11... what would they be?

The the points should be simple to state and explain, so that anyone can understand. Imagine having 90 seconds in an elevator to help a complete strange be aware of some important issues.

What top-5 issues would you tell them, and how would you say it?

9/11 top 5 issues in 90 seconds or less.

1. Why didn't the secret service rush Bush away ? His safety isn't his choice.

2. Why can't super sonic jet fighters catch the hijacked jets ? All the other jets were landing not to mention they were communication with ground control - easy to figure out who is who.

3. Amazing how those cell phones worked huh ? Can't even get mine to work in the city ! Wonder why that one guy was using his full name with his mom and saying stuff like, "Mom, this is Mark Bingham," "You believe me, don't you?". Incidentally Mark was a 6ft 4 225 lbs rugby player who was no coward.

4. WTC 1, 2 and 7 are the only steel fireproofed buildings to fall in the history of the world even though they didn't burn that long. Several other buildings have burned for over 10 hours through multiple floors and never collapsed - most of which went on to be used. It's a shame so much of the evidence was destroyed since most of the steel was whisked away to be recycled overseas.

5. Who were the terrorist ? The BBC has reported several of the 9/11 terrorist are alive and well claiming cases of mistaken identities and stolen passports. One of the "supposed" terrorist passports was found unharmed in the street. Amazing considering the MASSIVE fireball that ensued from the impact, no ?

The terrorist who were trained to fly were described as "incompetent" at best by their instructors yet professional air traffic controllers say the Pentagon jet was flying in such a way that they thought it was a US military jet.

On top of it all the Pentagon jet was headed directly for the whitehouse yet turns away at the last moments only to crash into the only side of the Pentagon which has is being renovated.

What we need is a list of talking points with s few supporting details, and a list of common rebuttals and rebuttals to those rebuttals.

In my opinion, that is basically what this whole thread was about, though i dont think ive seen it stated as such.

Talking points is how bush sells his 9/11 lies and his lies to get into iraq.

Im not suggesting that we lie, what i am suggesting is that we use this powerful tactic to expose the truth.

As the under-dog, 9/11 truth needs to adopt guerrilla tactics. Adopt you enemies tactics that work, and use them against them. Turn your adversaries strengths into weaknesses.

We're small, but that means we're hidden and maneuverable. They're big, which means they are slow and exposed. Strike selectively, then retreat before you become over-exposed.

Appeal to your audience's sense of patriotism and justice. Try to evoke those deep seeded emotions from 9/11. That sense of unity, that thirst for revenge!

Make them place themselves in the victim's shoes, then hit them with all the FACTS that are suppressed by the media!

The US created al-Qaeda, and used their terrorism tactics to our own advantage numerous times.

Hanzor's razor, "Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice."

What did bush know, and when did he know it? Was he criminally neglegent? or was he woefully complicit?

Why did they run simulations of planes crashing into the WTC and the pentagon mere months before 9/11, then later claim that nobody ever imagined that such a scenario was possible?

Why were there so many unusual wargames going on on 9/11? What impact did they have on our air defenses?

Why is it that our air defenses, which are designed to respond to surprise attack from super-sonic fighters and bombers, was not able to get off even one shot against these big, slow, jumbo jets as they flew through some of the most highly militarized airspace in the country? How is it that some of the most highly prized and protected buildings in the world were so easy to hit?

Who gains from 9/11? How did osama convince his sucide hijackers to do this? "Hey guys, lets attack them so that they have a valid excuse to kill more of our innocent people and spread their imperialism around the world!"

What are the ties between the bushes and the bin ladens?

Why was testimony from firefighters, government officials, and concerned experts left out of the 9/11 commission report? Failure to examine evidence, omitting evidence, or downright burying evidence is the very definition of a cover-up. What are they so desperate to cover up?

Perhaps its best not to immediately implicate the government as a willing participant, but certainly lay the groundwork. Just to get people interested in questioning even the most basic details of the official account is a milestone. If you can get them rolling, they will keep going.

I'm fascinated by this thread.

I think it's a perfect microcosm of the Truth Movement's problems.


Everyone comes out firing.

*

More and more people add their opinion.

*

A little in-fighting occurs between the "standard theorists" and the "fringe theorists."

*

A couple snide comments are made by people trying to subvert the effort.

*

More opinions are added and reworded.

*

The passion fades.

*

Another argument begins afresh elsewhere.

*

Everyone runs off to join the rhetoric battle du jour.

*

The initial challenge is forgotten.

*



It's too bad. That's all.


See you on the "Rosie" thread.
Last one out of the thread close the door and turn out the lights.

Bushes face and the fact that if we were getting "Hit"by terror they should have whisked him away. /That they down played the Pentagon being hit./ The lawn of the pentagon/The media downplays the people allowed to fly namely the middle easterner's./And no windows on the plane./ Maybe one of them will escape from Dulce some day and tell the story.

I just have to add this too, I was freaking out that bush was kept jepordizing the lives of all of those innocent children while the targets were being hit. If I were President and we were really under a threat, and I was surrounded by children , my first response would be to protect them by getting my #1 target ass away from them quick!

Originally posted by antar
If I were President and we were really under a threat...

You don't know what you would do.

We all like to think that we would be more decisive, more powerful, more intelligent...but none of us know how we would react in that situation.

I'm not defending our fine president...I think he's a nob. But the "he should have done this or that" arguments mean nothing.

All men are great in their dreams...

Oh essss are you ever WRONG! I most certainly do know how I would respond in an emergency, I am a Mom and Grandma. And I have a developing soul unlike some people. It was not so much that bush sat paralyzed in deep visual thought before and after the "news", but that if there were really some great threat from unknown sources, they would have snatched him up and had him surrounded by MIB and helicoptered out before the first tower fell.

Hi, I just wanted to give my condolences for the loss of your Father. I too have recently gone through incredible loss of my 2 closest family members. And I would be honored to share my winnings with you! Nice to meet you I will look for some of your posts as I am new here.

Originally posted by antar
Oh essss are you ever WRONG! I most certainly do know how I would respond in an emergency, I am a Mom and Grandma.

I respect your position as Mother and Grandmother IMMENSELY. But if you had cameras on you 24/7, watching you fill those roles, do you think people would agree with your every move?

I'd be willing to bet that there would be moments where someone would get on an internet site and call you a horrible Mother and Grandmother...and they would be WRONG, wouldn't they?

Second guessing is easy when you're not there...that's all I'm saying.

And I have a developing soul unlike some people.

Is that directed at me or the president?

No matter. You don't really know either of us.

...they would have snatched him up and had him surrounded by MIB and helicoptered out before the first tower fell.

And if the president hopped right up and left, people would say he was "OBVIOUSLY expecting the news."

Like I said, I'm not sure that the guy is guiltless...but I do know that his actions in the classroom on 9/11 are hardly grounds for conviction.

Originally posted by Essedarius
I'm fascinated by this thread.

I think it's a perfect microcosm of the Truth Movement's problems.

Everyone comes out firing. (snip)

Another argument begins afresh elsewhere.*

Everyone runs off to join the rhetoric battle du jour.

Yeah, and I pick and choose my battles/interests and am not just in it (at ATS) just to hear myself speak, or debate in some battle du jour. I don't know what is new and happening or where all the good "action" is here at ATS most of the time...I'm not looking for a fight, just trying to find particular things of interest to me, contribute something where/when I can or feel so inclined, trying to avoid the usual religious arguements, and attempting to deny ignorance most of all.

But as far as the Truth Movement as a whole,...there's always something new to pull attention away from such movements, even things created to do so...

Personally, 911 interests me, and so did this thread/ challenge. I'm not off to the battle du jour, I'm still recouperating from my efforts here.

Originally posted by Essedarius
Last one out of the thread close the door and turn out the lights.

Well you know, SO is a busy person, and perhaps he just never saw what he was looking for here. I wanted to give more myself here ...refine my posts with better links etc., but it just never happened. I don't think this thread was ever to be one to continue, but as far as a closure to the challenge, perhaps SO is still hoping for more, for better...

perhaps not.

but he is a busy man and there is much to do on ATS, so he'll get back to it when he can, feels so inclined, has given up on the decent all-encompassing post he envisioned being born here...

and then, he'll turn out the lights.

'till then, I'll leave a light on, some oil burining in the lamp for him even if everyone else is busy elsewhere.

But I get what you are saying and agree.

Originally posted by antar
Hi, I just wanted to give my condolences for the loss of your Father. I too have recently gone through incredible loss of my 2 closest family members. And I would be honored to share my winnings with you! Nice to meet you I will look for some of your posts as I am new here.

Hello mother and grandmother antar. I am assuming you direct this comment to me Thank you for your condolences. I have lost 2 people whom I love dearly in this past year, but I have realized what I grieve over, is what they repersented to me, more than missing their person here and now. Realizing what that has been very cathartic and enlightening.

Welcome to ATS and the 911 conspiracy challenge thread here. No need to look for any of my other ATS posts though, I've not contributed anything outstanding here, and my posts are few and without recognition as my points clearly show! Thanks for the confidence though!

1) How did a plane's fuel melt a steel structure? And why are they dismissing many credible people's observations that have years of experience?

2) Why did WTC 7 fall the same way as the other two WTC towers, that were struck by planes?

3) Why didn't the Pentagon release all the video footage of the alleged plane strike there, they had multiple cameras everywhere?

4) Why are there so many conflicting investigation reports, times, and information that are all logged as official government documentation?

5) If there is so many conflicting official reports why was the 911 cases closed so quickly and evidence discarded, with so many people still asking questions?



[edit on 2-4-2007 by Realtruth]

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Win 250,000 ATS Points!

--- original post ---

If you could list the top-5 concise issues that shed doubt on the official story of 9/11... what would they be?

The the points should be simple to state and explain, so that anyone can understand. Imagine having 90 seconds in an elevator to help a complete strange be aware of some important issues.

What top-5 issues would you tell them, and how would you say it?

My entry is coming...
I hope I'm not too late. I thought this had already ended awhile ago and forgot about it.
Hopefully tonight...

1. The Pentagon. Barely covered by mainsteam media, why? Remained a footnote most of the day. All surrounding suvailence video confiscated by FBI. No "official" report with all victims identified by DNA, as well as terrorist identified by DNA.

2. WTC 7. How do WTC 5 and WTC 6 remain standing while 7 falls? 5 and 6 are inbetween 1 and 2 and 7? Also WTC 7 falls staight down after sustaining damage to 1 side.

3. Bush and administation stalled investigation for almost 1 and 1/2 years. Lots of evidence never analized.

4. Flt data recordings, as well as audio not released. Only victims families have heard these, not allowed to say what heard. Why?

5. Massive amounts of disinformation follow, leading to aggessive foreign pollicies of fraudulent neglagence.

1-The First Proof
The First Truth is that the United States is an and always was an imperialist state. The big story isn't quite this fact, it's actually the fact that few Americans out of hundreds of millions have any concept of this glaring and irrefutable truth. One has to do little more than examine our expansionist military history, since day one, for all the proof that is needed. The reasons are rather blatant yet basic: we're all indoctrinated with imperialist propaganda our entire lives, and it simply goes unquestioned. From there, constant "reinforcing" propaganda is used, as evidenced on and constantly after 9/11. It's the 'first proof' they lied about 9/11, within hours of the collapses, and continue to do so.

American Imperialism is the source of the hatred for America and the intent behind the hijackers, but they tell US it's because they hated "our" freedoms. The freedoms that "they're" talking about is the establishments freedom to imperialistically dominate the globe. After the imperial Cold War ended there was a need for an excuse to maintain our imperial posture while distracting Americans from noticing that we're an imperialist state. This is easy to do with "justifiable" wars, but when the wars aren't justifiable people begin to realize. Take Iraq for example. The funny thing is that most people still pretend like the imperialist stance (with Iraq) is something new and akin to Bush, when in truth it's just the latest example.


2-Osama
During "our" imperialist venture Afghan War "we" influenced the creation of the mujahadeen, an effort which Osama was a money handler of and Al Qaeda derived from. During this time the CIA worked in tandem with the Pakistani ISI, who maintained alliance with Osama and friends well up to 9/11. It just so happens that the Bush's and the Bin Laden's have a history stretching all the way back to the 70's, and up to this day, but everybody knows that.

Osama was more or less "our" creation during the USSA/USSR imperialist Afghan War between 79-89. In the days since, Al Qaeda has been used in operations in Iraq (1989-mid-90's), Libya (1989-present) and the Balkin's [Bosnia / Kosovo] (1992-2001). Usama has been a known threat since the early 90's, but the .gov claims they could never catch/kill him. Virtually the entire 911 Commission Report is built upon this claim, but the critical factor they completely forget to mention is the fact that they could have targeted him with his satellite phone, which they recorded over 2000 hours of him using. They never bothered to, and then omitted the details of the scenario from the 911 Commission Report.


3-Coverup
Have you actually read the Report? It actually debunks the gov's claim that they didn't have proper warning. It actually makes the admission that 10's if not 100's of 1,000's of terrorist threat warnings existed before 911 yet Bush didn't see terrorism as urgent. It underscores some 80 paragraphs of Osama-911 specific warnings, many of which were summaries of multiple warnings. When you look past all of their excuses, that they had over a year to prepare in advance, it lays the clear case that the attacks could have been stopped if they actually cared to stop them.

And that's what’s admitted. The sad part is Senator Max Cleland resigned after calling it a "national scandal"; 3 were outraged about the Rice-Tenet meeting coverup, 3 others called the entire investigation a coverup that was 'set up to fail', and 4 were outraged about the DOD lying about why they failed to stop the planes... on top of 6 other congressmen calling it a sham coverup. Even the BBC 911 conspiracy hitpiece video said that the real 911 conspiracy was the after-the-fact coverup, which is no surprise after BushCo. tried to prevent the Commission, and then under-funded it, set the deadline too short, restricted access, and placed an administration insider as the Exec. Director.


4-Diversion
For example the administration denies "that anyone could have imagined using planes as missiles", despite the fact that the same scenario was known to have been planned in 1995 by KSM, and planes as missiles is as old as air combat ala WW2 Kamakazi. And if that's not insulting enough, not a single person has been charged, fired, or even reprimanded for lying to the 9/11 Commission or blocking investigations that would have prevented 911.

The most striking thing is that virtually every single aspect of 911 is virtually impossible to make concrete sense of, meanwhile "they" intentionally add fuel to the fire by doing things like withholding the footage from numerous security cameras at the Pentagon that would show us what hit it, while releasing the worst possible images that only spawn more questions and controversy to add fuel to the fire which is keeping scores of researchers diverted from getting to the concrete issues. What hit it is irrelevant and the real story is that they're toying with us as they have solid camera angles, the images they give us (after waiting years) are crap and offer absolutely no analysis, while the Osama tapes they put out include advanced image analysis. They're goal is to keep their critics diverted and their war supporters satisfied.


5-Phony War on Terror
General Richard Meyers actually said "The goal has never been to get bin Laden,", and even Bush said he's "truly not that concerned about him". The very concept of a war on terror is a logical fallacy, as imperialism is the source of the hatred that spawns these terrorists, and the use of or threats of violence to achieve political goals is itself terrorism.

Its really about imperialist global domination, beyond mere wars in Afghanistan/Iraq, and that imperialism is the source of our $9TRILLION national debt, income taxes, inflation and so on that has the nation bankrupted and you/I/your-children set up to be enslaved to said debt for the rest of our lives. And it's only going to increase: this year's DOD spending is at well over $530BILLION. To understand how this alleged war on terror is about raw global domination consider how we have over 700 military bases and personnel in 159 of 193 total world nations. The technologies involved are trillions of dollars in a control grid of satellites, mile long sea-bases, and massive artificial intelligence systems like you see in the movies, which can all be confirmed on public military websites regardless of how incredible it may sound.
resources coming...

I realize it may take longer then 90 secs' to verbalize that 'script'. Being somewhat distinct concepts, I laid it out in a narrative for you all to be able to make perfect sense of, to be able to properly convey that message in your '90 second' timeslot. Many of those examples could still be effectively explained in less detail. Here I wanted to ensure the points were clear.

SIDE NOTES:
I: The American Imperialism concept is absolutely crucial for one to understand WHY 9/11 happened, conspiracy or none.
II: Words in quotations like "us" or "we or "our" deserve a certain kind of cynical emphasis to convey that it's not actually "ours" or whatever despite the way "they" propagate thru their the langauge at US on all of these matters. Proper use can form a peer-bond sort of (mini) group understanding with your "single serving friend(s)".

#1: The First Truth / Proof
en.wikipedia.org...
www.google.com...
www.cooperativeresearch.org.../11=centralAsia

Complete elaboration of the "First Truth": American Imperialism concept:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Expansion on that concept which details the imperialist propaganda language used extensively since 9/11:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

Noam Chomsky's flagship documentary "Manufacturing Consent" that breaks down the imperialist propaganda model:
video.google.com...

BBC's / Adam Curtis's "The Century of Self" that charts the evolution of roughly 100 years of the evolution of modern propagnda:
www.google.com...

#2: Osama / Al Qaeda
The Various Osama / US Operations-history:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

"Satellite Phone:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Bush-Laden's:
www.cooperativeresearch.org...:_a_more_detailed_look=binladenFamily

ISI / Mujahadeen:
en.wikipedia.org...
www.cooperativeresearch.org.../11=sovietAfghanWar
www.cooperativeresearch.org...:_a_more_detailed_look

#3: 9/11 Commission / Cover-up
www.9-11commission.gov...
The Report:
www.9-11commission.gov...

'First Paragraph'-coverage; Commission history:
en.wikipedia.org...

Official Criticisms:
www.patriotsquestion911.com...

Rice-Tenet-Black Meeting:
www.washingtonpost.com...

DOD Lies:
www.washingtonpost.com...
www.msnbc.msn.com...

Extended Criticisms:
en.wikipedia.org...

Executive Director:
"Philip Zelicow"
9/11 Comm. Report;p.'viii'

Rice had asked University of Virginia history professor Philip Zelikow to advise her on the transition.165 Hadley and Zelikow asked Clarke and his deputy,Roger Cressey, for a special briefing on the terrorist threat and how Clarke’s Transnational Threats Directorate and Counterterrorism Security Group functioned.
9/11 Report;p.199

#4: Diversion / Disinfo / Denial / No-Accountability

Denials[size]
Complete Coverage
www.cooperativeresearch.org.../11_world=denials

Planes as missiles
Couldn't have imagined, claim debunked:
www.commondreams.org...
Bojinka, KSM:
en.wikipedia.org...
Kamikaze:
en.wikipedia.org...
It doesn't even matter, the argument is a Red Herring:
en.wikipedia.org...

Some Examples of Insanely Incredible/Diversionary Issues:

Funding
ISI General Mahmood Ahmed funds Hijackers, AND has breakfast on the morning of 9/11 with Sen. Bob Graham:
www.cooperativeresearch.org...:_a_more_detailed_look=mahmoodAhmed
Sen. Bob Graham heads the Congressional Joint inquiry into 9/11:
www.gpoaccess.gov...
Then Bob Graham openly calls the investigations a coverup:
video.google.com...
("BBC: 911 Conspiracy Files" 'hitpiece', final segment)

Pentagon:
ATS thread with 4223 replies:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
The fact that one issue could be debated for that long speaks for itself.
Which is important because they could simply show us the real images and end the controversy:

Apparent doctored footage, with no analysis even if it's not:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Yet they give us advanced analysis on Osama tapes:

s24.photobucket.com... (Album)
Yet those tapes were somehow released in a docudama many months before the media????:
infowars.net...
But in anycase these 2 new videos/revelations apparently debunk the official flight path, with 'official' sources:
video.google.com... (Pentacon)
video.google.com... (Pandoras Black Box)
www.abovetopsecret.com...
An So On... ... ...

Flight 93:
Regardless of what happened, just look at it:

It goes from there...

WTC Towers:
Even if fires did knock them down, it's nature of the falls and the pools of metal are incredible, for starters.

WTC7, etc.

[edit on 4-4-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

#5: Phony War on Terror
Gen. Meyers:

www.youtube.com...

Bush:

www.youtube.com...

National Debt:
www.brillig.com...

This years DOD Budget:
www.aaas.org...

737+ Military Bases:
www.alternet.org...

Military Deployments:
www.lewrockwell.com...

PNAC Era of Imperialism:
blog.myspace.com...

Total Technological Domination:

Google Video Link

video.google.com...
ATS Discussion:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Sources:
blog.myspace.com...



[edit on 4-4-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]