Texans, I'm Madder Than Hell and You Should Be Too!

Give 'em hell thelibra!

Although I live in Florida most of my family [in-laws] do live in Texas. Me and mine are considering moving to McKinney, TX next year possibly. But if you guys are planning on burning the place down and/or covering it with black soot why bother.

Shame you and strangecraft didn't get into this any deeper than his only post, as I really enjoy his 'work' around here, and he's a Texan too. The two of you would make for a great debate imo that would, hopefully, end in a compromise position that would benefit all those interested. As it stands I got you 'winning' here so I'll have to go with that.

Also: Can anybody send the letter or only TX residents? If only for Texans I'll forward your template to the in-laws, for their consideration, when you get it done.

Regards and good luck,
-Rob

No change of heart.I still say that the plant I work for is one of the cleanest in the nation;with respect to the laws as they stand today.The older plants mostly on the east coast are the really bad polluters and the ones needing to be taken out of service.
We do not have to monitor CO2 emmissions because there are no regulations on CO2.Do I think that is right?No but I can't fathom an accurate way to measure CO2 emmissions.There are too many variables ie..type of coal,adjustments during the combustion process...ect.
The pollutants as identified by the epa that we emit are removed in greater quanity than required by the epa...ie so2,nox,particulate matter ect.
What you have to understand is not all people in the big power busisness are out to rape the environment.The plant I work for is very aware of our environmental impact.
www.sunflower.net...
But we are a co-op;so we are different than most for profit companies.


[edit on 16/2/2007 by shooterbrody]

Okay, according to what I've found out from the Texas state department, the only method of protest being lodged is through a hard-copy signed letter with the senders address on it (for verification purposes) mailed to the appropriate address. For anyone who wishes to be a part of the solution, I have created a template letter here, which can be copied and pasted into whatever form you wish to use. If Times New Roman is used in a 10pt font, the entire thing will fit on one page.

Office of the Chief Clerk
TCEQ - Mail Code 105
PO Box 13087
Austin, TX 78711-3087

Subject: Public Letter of Protest Against TXU’s 18 New Coal Plants

Dear Chief Clerk,

I wish to lodge a formal public letter of protest against the construction of 18 new coal-burning power plants in Texas. With the just the technology available today, there are far cleaner sources of energy available that can meet the rising demands of Texans for electricity, but TXU and Rick Perry have chosen the dirtiest possible source of power, pulverized coal burning plants, because of their cheap cost. How can such traitors to this state be given such free license to destroy our air quality, and release such massive amounts of poisons, greenhouse gasses, and radioactive isotopes into the air? I am infuriated that the good citizens of Texas have had no say in the matter, and that the future of our state has been sold to the lowest bidder!

Coal-burning power plants release the following toxins into the air: Sulphur Dioxide, Nitrogen Oxides, Mercury, Silicon Fly Ash, Arsenic, Chromium, Radon, Lead, Chlorine, and Sodium. Six of these appear on the EPA’s 188-list of toxic substances, all of which appear on the European Union’s EPER list, and most of which appear on Canada’s CEPAR list. While we are not members of the two latter nations, we can learn from the example of our economic, strategic, and cultural allies.

Further, coal-burning plants release the following radioactive isotopes into the air: Uranium (235 and 238), Thorium, Radium, Polonium, and Potassium-40. As a result of the release and creation of these isotopes, the surrounding population is exposed to 100 times as much radiation as a nuclear power plant.

Finally, the greenhouse gasses emitted by these coal-burning power plants are upwards of 50% more than even natural-gas plants. Were even coal-gasification used, in the prime prediction of a 40% decrease in CO2 emissions, it would still release 5% more Carbon Dioxide than a natural gas plant. But TXU does not even propose to use coal gasification, or clean-coal technology. In a world where even a fossil-fuel giant like Exxon-Mobil has admitted to the existence of global warming, and the United Nations has shown a 90% chance it is the direct result of mankind, how can more coal-burning plants even be an option?

For your convenience, I have listed the references for my facts below. The very future of Texas air and land is being threatened with 18 of the absolute worst type of power plant in terms of toxicity, radiation, environmental damage, and greenhouse gasses. We will not tolerate such a gross abuse of her citizens. For the sake of our land and air, please do not allow any of the proposed coal power plants their permits, and demand that TXU use a cleaner source of energy.

Sincerely,




(((insert real name here)))
((((insert current address here – they must have your address for this to be filed)))

REFERENCES:
www.ornl.gov...
www.ec.gc.ca...
www.sepa.org.uk...
www.epa.gov...
www.eia.doe.gov...
www.fe.doe.gov...

For those who were wondering about whether or not people from other places besides Texas can lodge a complaint, the answer is "Yes," however, I would recommend changing the wording of the letter to reflect the fact you don't live in the state, but are concerned about its actions affecting your own state.

I need to stress, again, according to the chief clerk, this is the ONLY method that is being considered to stop these power plants.

They must have hard-copies in order to have the protest on public record. Please don't let the fight die with this thread. Print out the letter, sign in, put your adddress on it, and mail it to the address provided. Thank you.

[edit on 2/17/2007 by thelibra]

TheLibra: Done. I live in Tennessee but I sent a letter in anyway. As you said, it affects the air quality outside of Texas as well. Good luck with your campaign and let us know what happens, OK?

Haven't seen you in a while Rren. Was missing your posts.
Libra, keep up the good work. Sending the (modified) form letter off today. Oklahoma is just a little too close to the proposed plants for my breathing comfort. Don't be discouraged by the naysayers. Many of us who don't care to jump into an argument with total strangers are quite willing to lurk, pick up facts and quietly act on them. We're not called the "silent majority" for nothing. Your efforts are not wasted and your posts on this thread are what ATS is all about, imho. BTW, running for office might not be a bad idea. I can't vote for you for office but I can vote online. WATS to you, brother.

I sure am glad that I do not live in Texas. Why not move somewhere and erect your windmills and solar panels? I think it is very admirable that you are trying to fight the good fight, but your fellow Texans seem to have their heads buried in the sand. It seems that Texas only cares about corporate profit and not the health and welfare of it's citizens. I hope you guys over there get to do a little housecleaning in your Legislature. I would be willing to bet the company you are complaining about is quietly passing out money under the table to the legislators in your state.

Listen, hear in Texas, and better yet, here in Houston, we are the home to the world's chemical industry and the world's man spaced flight center. We need the energy, period.

Windmills, solar farms and fancy hand waving of all kind ain't gonna stop this great state's need for energy. Likewise, none of this gesturing about like a monkey claiming it hurts to breath or ice caps are melting ain't gonna do diddly squat.

Eloquently spoken, etotheitheta. With your pithy acumen and well documented scientific evidence you have allayed all my "hand waving". I'm totally convinced by your arguments and will now put off my righteous indignation and join my Texas neighbors in burying my head in the sand. Thank you for showing us all the errors of our ways.

I am resident of SE Texas. I took a look at the letter and will decide if I will send a copy.

Up until a few years ago, I worked in the energy biz for a power generator and marketer. My position got outsourced in 2004. Anyway, Texas has always been able to cover it's power need but with the way people view conservation or lack of it, I would suppose more generation will be needed.

Natural gas has mostly been used in the peakers (started if peak demand during a day quickly jumps) and some cogeneration plants. The cost of a megawatt of output from these units is quite a bit higher than coal units. Typically coal units are the baseline units, the ones that supply most of the power along with nuclear. The last few of years the price of natural gas has gone up even more. Electricity from gas costs more, people would pay more.

Originally posted by Rren
Although I live in Florida most of my family [in-laws] do live in Texas. Me and mine are considering moving to McKinney, TX next year possibly. But if you guys are planning on burning the place down and/or covering it with black soot why bother.

We'd love to have y'all down here, but like you said, with another 18 coal plants on the way, you might want to wait and see what happens before making a decision like that. I love my state something fierce, but I don't think I can in good conscience raise my kid in a state that opens up 18 more coal plants. I just don't know.

Oh, as a word of advice, unless you're near retiring age, or plan to be shut-ins, I'd move to an area slightly west of Dallas, rather than northeast of it, otherwise you'll be at least an hour from everything else in the Metroplex. It's a good 30-45 minute drive. If you're going to be travelling to Dallas and Fort Worth both, I'd recommend something more in the Mid-Cities area, or Arlington.

Originally posted by Rren
Shame you and strangecraft didn't get into this any deeper than his only post, as I really enjoy his 'work' around here, and he's a Texan too.

And he did raise a good point, there is definitely a rivalry between the Natural Gas plants and Coal plant companies, but in truth, I don't think that was really the source of the statewide outrage about the plants. Texans, as a rule, don't much care to side with a corporation on anything, unless it's the corporation that pays their checks. So while the Natural Gas workers might have been righteously indignant on behalf of Lone Star Gas, the guy living next door working for Kroger would be mad just because of the harmful methods being used.

Originally posted by Rren
The two of you would make for a great debate imo that would, hopefully, end in a compromise position that would benefit all those interested.

Strangecraft is great. I've had a lot of interaction with him/her in the past in other threads, and they've always had some really good insights and facts available.

Originally posted by Rren
Also: Can anybody send the letter or only TX residents?

If I understand correctly, anyone can mail a letter in, because it's for public record. I think more weight will be given to state residents, however.

Originally posted by shooterbrody
No change of heart.I still say that the plant I work for is one of the cleanest in the nation;with respect to the laws as they stand today.

Fair enough, and thanks for the literature. It'll be interesting to see what sort of bio-energy choice they go with. In some of my clean-coal links, there's a number of ways the byproducts can be recaptured and recycled. If TXU was trying to go in Sunflower's direction, then I wouldn't have had to start this thread in the first place. Unfortunately, they're taking more of a Montgomery Burns approach.

Originally posted by shooterbrody
We do not have to monitor CO2 emmissions because there are no regulations on CO2.

And from what I understand, a lot of companies have been knocking on congress' and the EPA's door, trying to find out what the regulations will be. None of them want to invest in CO2 capturing/filtering techniques only to turn around the next year and find out their equipment doesn't fit code, or goes so far beyond code as to make them uncompetitive. As I mentioned though, Bush has snipped so much power from the EPA they most likely won't have any CO2 standards until 2009.

Originally posted by shooterbrody
I can't fathom an accurate way to measure CO2 emmissions.

Perhaps a gas chromatograph at the exhaust hoods? Dunno. I tried to find out how exactly CO2 was measured, and the only alleged EPA source I could find is a 1997 paper you have to order the hardcopy for. I bet we see a new, relatively cheap and accurate method in the next 3 years though.

Originally posted by shooterbrody
What you have to understand is not all people in the big power busisness are out to rape the environment.The plant I work for is very aware of our environmental impact.

And I'm glad. I wish TXU had those kind of scruples. I'm sorry I immediately accused your company of such a thing, but at the time I was still a bit irritated at the tone of the response. I'm glad we're seeing more eye to eye now, and your links at the end were invaluable to finding out how to stop TXU's plants.

Originally posted by forestlady
TheLibra: Done. I live in Tennessee but I sent a letter in anyway. As you said, it affects the air quality outside of Texas as well. Good luck with your campaign and let us know what happens, OK?

Thanks, Forestlady, and I appreciate the encouragement. Letters from other states going on public record will certainly not hurt things, that's for certain.

Originally posted by whitewave
Sending the (modified) form letter off today. Oklahoma is just a little too close to the proposed plants for my breathing comfort.

Ooo.. yeah, and y'all would end up with a lot of it blowing through the state as well, since our winds mostly blow in a northeast direction. My tribe's reservation is in the eastern half of Oklahoma, and right in the path of Texas wind.

Originally posted by whitewave
Don't be discouraged by the naysayers. Many of us who don't care to jump into an argument with total strangers are quite willing to lurk, pick up facts and quietly act on them. We're not called the "silent majority" for nothing.

Thanks whitewave. The encouragement is much appreciated, and hopefully, if even a tenth of the views represent people who will write the Clerk's office in protest, that's that much more combined efforts to stop the coal plants. If everyone who sends a letter can get someone else, family, friends, neighbors, whomever, to send in a letter, all the better...

Originally posted by whitewave
Your efforts are not wasted and your posts on this thread are what ATS is all about, imho. BTW, running for office might not be a bad idea. I can't vote for you for office but I can vote online. WATS to you, brother.

Thanks man! For what it's worth, I'm actually running for the ATS Presidency, and intend to make environmental responsibility (without nutcasing it) part of my platform. While I wouldn't consider myself anything close to being a hippy, things like another 18 dirty pulverized coal burning plants springing up in my home state infuriate me.

Originally posted by groingrinder
Why not move somewhere and erect your windmills and solar panels?

I've got deep roots in this state. It's the land that nurtured my parents, their parents, my wife and her family, me, most of us live in Texas as well. My closest friends, with two exceptions, live here. We've birthed and buried enough family members in this state to probably break 4-digits, easily so if you count my friend's families. So much of me is tied to this land, it'd be like cutting off my left arm. Yeah, I could survive without it, but I'd never feel whole again.

Originally posted by groingrinder
I think it is very admirable that you are trying to fight the good fight, but your fellow Texans seem to have their heads buried in the sand.

Some, to be sure, have. Certainly that was the case in the last election. Of course, the other problem is that Chris Bell ran a terrible campaign, and two of the three independant candidates ran a really good campaign. I think Perry got elected because of the split in the Dem votes thanks to Kinky and Gramma (which makes a lot more sense if you followed the last Texas Guber election, otherwise it just sounds dirty).

Originally posted by groingrinder
It seems that Texas only cares about corporate profit and not the health and welfare of it's citizens.

No, it's deeper than that. To be honest, Texans care a lot about the health and welfare of their citizens, they just have a lot of trouble accepting the truth of anything related to environmentalism. One of my best friends is still adamant about Global Warming being a myth. He's got no facts to back him up, and he claims it even in the face of Exxon Mobil admitting the existance of GW. The only thing that has made him think otherwise was a discussion he and I had a year ago, when my job on an ATS debate was to say GW wasn't caused by mankind, and I was telling him about it. That set it in his mind that GW wasn't real, and changing a Texan's mind is like trying to steer an oil tanker. We're stubborn SOBs. Hell, it's only been a month, myself, since I really accepted that we CAN'T dump the environmental problems on our children like our parents and grandparents did.

So it's not that they don't care, they're just stubborn as all hell.

Originally posted by groingrinder
I would be willing to bet the company you are complaining about is quietly passing out money under the table to the legislators in your state.

Everyone here "knows" that TXU is dirty, and that they've got their hands in the pockets of most of our legislators. There's been legal battles going on about them for years. I'll try and dig up some of their other stuff. The problem is that they're so deep, for so long, it's almost become an accepted evil.

Originally posted by roadgravel
I am resident of SE Texas. I took a look at the letter and will decide if I will send a copy.

Please feel free to edit it as you see fit. My father, for instance, is going to be removing the inflammatory parts about Rick Perry, since he's a Republican, but he too hates the idea of more coal plants going up. Stopping the coal plants is my primary concern.

Originally posted by roadgravel
Anyway, Texas has always been able to cover it's power need but with the way people view conservation or lack of it, I would suppose more generation will be needed.

I think you hit the nail on the head. We're going to have to learn to conserve more. While the Cowboy mentality was great for getting the state settled, we live in a global world now. Our actions now directly affect our neighbors and vice versa. Texas is no longer a bubble unto its own.

Originally posted by roadgravel
Typically coal units are the baseline units, the ones that supply most of the power along with nuclear. The last few of years the price of natural gas has gone up even more. Electricity from gas costs more, people would pay more.

One article I read put it best, I think. In the UK, electricity is roughly twice as expensive. As a result, appliances and electronics there are about twice as efficient, and people conserve electricity about twice as much. In all honesty, maybe it's time the price did rise.

If our gasoline is any indicator, it would be a solution. Once gas prices spiked a year or two ago, people were dumping their single-digit mile-to-the-gallon SUVs right and left, and realizing they could actually survive in a fuel-efficient car.

I think electricity will go the same way.


Thank you, everyone, for your support. Please, if you feel this cause is valid, flag this thread, and try to get friends, family, co-workers, whoever, to sign a letter and mail it in.

[edit on 2/19/2007 by thelibra]

Ah, for those of you who were wondering about the effects of TXU's dirty coal plants on other states, apparently they have plans to put these plants up in other states as well. So you might want to be prepared.

from Coal is the new coal
Texas Governor Rick Perry announced fast-tracking permits for these new coal-fired plants two weeks after the recent election. Rolling Stone also reports that TXU had pre-rewarded Perry’s reelection campaign with more than $130,000.

TXU is reportedly undeterred by the protests of 30 Texas cities and towns represented 7 million people.

They are already talking about expanding beyond Texas with another fleet of new coal plants in other states. By pushing ahead so heedlessly, they are essentially betting the company on the belief that most Texans-and most Americans-would prefer to risk epic storms, droughts, crop failures and polluted air rather than to save the planet.

Another article on the Perry-TXU Corruption that puts quite a few of the numbers in perspective as well as providing a lot of links to related content.


Here's just a few more links to various other TXU issues, to give you an idea of the scale of their corruption and incompetence over the years.

TXU fails to comply with the U.K.'s Renewable Energy Obligations

TXU investigated for manipulating energy market

TXU investigated for pricing based off customer credit scores

TXU investigated by Australia for poor reliability

Records Found In Trash Bin Prompts TXU Investigation


Ah, and for our non-American friends, TXU is, as you can see, a global energy power at the moment, acting as an energy provider in every corner of the Earth. So, be forewarned, if TXU hasn't screwed you, it's only because it's not your turn yet.

GREAT NEWS!!!

An Austin Judge ruled that Texas Governor Rick Perry's fast-tracking of the coal-power plants was illegal and unconstitutional. Here is a link to the breaking news thread.

Neither Perry nor TXU's replies surprised me, but I think it only goes to show just how far out of touch they are with the good people of Texas.

"No one should be surprised that a single liberal Austin judge would rule against Gov. Perry and his efforts to increase energy capacity in Texas," spokesman Robert Black said.

Yeah, well, I guess that completely ignores the 30+ cities (including Dallas) and the thousands of citizens and many environmental groups fighting this tooth and nail. Yep. Had nothing to do with that, it was just some liberal judge, according to our corrupt state government.

TXU's response was even more ridiculous:

"We're obviously disappointed in this decision," TXU spokeswoman Kim Morgan said. "Every day of delay means that meeting the goal of providing newer, cleaner power generation is denied."

It should be illegal for them to use the word "cleaner" in regards to the kind of power plants they want to put up. Perhaps the pulverized coal burning method of today is cleaner than it was 50 years ago, but it is still the dirtiest most harmful and polluting form of power generation possible.

Three cheers to Judge Stephen Yelenosky!

This is far from the end of the issue. Please continue the letter-writing, contacting your state and local representatives, and getting others to join in the fight. All this is, is a delay to buy the plaintiffs enough time to file a proper suit to stop the permits, and an allowance for the permit board to make its own decision, rather than deferring to Perry's criminal fast-tracking.

Hey libra,

I heard a report that txu was gonna sell out and only seek to build 3 plants instead of 18. You hear anything about that down there?

Originally posted by shooterbrody
I heard a report that txu was gonna sell out and only seek to build 3 plants instead of 18. You hear anything about that down there?

Indeed I did, just a couple hours ago in fact. I was right about to post on it in fact. This is FANTASTIC news... Check it out...

www.dfw.com...

Now what's even better is the fact that one of the buying partners is Texas Pacific Group. I used to work for them, I know their CFO and CEO personally, and I can honestly give a good assessment from having watched them operate. What TPG does is buy ailing companies with incompetent or corrupt management, and then they fire the bad management, bring in proven "good" managers, and restructure the company so that it not only turns a better profit than before, due to quality and not cutting corners.

What's even better is that I can actually contact the heads of TPG with direct letters and let them know about the concern over the additional coal plants. I'm sure they already know about it, but now I actually have two brass-hat faces I can contact about it. This is such great news!!!

Now, if we can just get Rick Perry indicted and removed from office, all will be well in the Lone Star State!

Sorry thelibra, but none of that means #. These new holders will find a way to build what Texas ultimately needs, an energy producing plant.

Originally posted by etotheitheta
Sorry thelibra, but none of that means #. These new holders will find a way to build what Texas ultimately needs, an energy producing plant.

See, Etotheitheta, I have no problem with new energy plants in Texas. And the biggest problem getting people like you on board is that you don't see "we don't want our air quality to get any worse than it already is", what you see is some sort of neo-luddite idea of "electricity bad!"

Nothing could be further from the truth. We recognize the need for better energy distribution, as well as the growing demand for electricity.

However, it can be accomplished in FAR CLEANER ways than burning pulverized coal. If you would just accept this fact, we could work more towards a common middle ground.



[edit on 2/26/2007 by thelibra]

Seems to me that it would be wise to keep our sources of energy as diverse as possible. I'm not sure just how 'clean' the new coal burning technology is, but I'm all for building new plants that pollute as little as possible. The last thing Texas needs is to end up like California a couple years ago.

My first reaction to TXU going private is to grab my wallet. We're being told that fewer new plants will be built, and that rates are going to go down? I'm no rocket scientist, but even I know that if you make less of something, the price goes up, particularly when increased demand is guaranteed. Short term savings will likely mean big long term rate hikes.

Originally posted by resistor
My first reaction to TXU going private is to grab my wallet. We're being told that fewer new plants will be built, and that rates are going to go down?

I hope theLibra is right about the buyout. Currently TXU appears not to be playing nicely. The PUC is also stating the TXU has withheld power in the past to force up the market price. (remember Enron).

Here is some info on their mispriced power due to natural gas vs coal.

TXU bragged to its shareholders on their March 31 2006 filings with the SEC that: "…in contrast to TXU Corp.’s gas-fired generation units, changes in natural gas prices have no significant effect on the cost of generating electricity from TXU Corp.’s nuclear-powered and lignite/coal-fired plants. All other factors being equal, these baseload generation assets, which provided 56% of supply volumes in 2005, increase or decrease in value as natural gas prices rise or fall, respectively, because of the effect of natural gas prices on wholesale power prices…One of TXU Power ’s key competitive strengths is its ability to produce electricity at low variable costs in a market in which power prices are set by gas-fired generation."

The Article

This is really no surprise to me.

Okay, to address a couple of concerns here.

First off, TXU could raise their rates to $50/kWh if they wanted to, and you could still escape unaffected, by going to any of the "Electricity Chooser" sites and switching your power company to Green Mountain Energy instead.

TXU presently uses Non-Renewable (ie DIRTY) sources at 14.5 cents per kWh. They ALSO charge a monthly fee of $5.17.

Green Mountain uses RENEWABLE (ie CLEAN) sources at 13.95 cents per kWh, and charges no monthly fee.

Sooo... let's review...

TXU = Dirty Power For Higher Cost
Green Mountain = Clean Power for Lower Cost

The whole spin on TXU raising it's rates is a pink wookiee, folks, enacted by Faux News to scare people and dissuade them from the merger. It's complete BS. People have a choice in Texas which Power company they're going to go with, and TXU CAN'T raise their rates much higher or they'll put themselves out of business.

It already makes absolutely no sense to use TXU. Just switch. It's really, really easy.

www.electricitytexas.com...

Once you switch, TXU's rates be damned!