Cardiologist Pim van Lommel presents strong scientific evidence for the reality of NDE's

Some years ago, Dutch cardiologist Pim v Lommel published a paper in the Lancet about his research into near death experiences, in which he came to the conclusion that life can exist outside of the physical body. Some of the evidence of that is the veridical evidence in which the patients (after being brought back) where able to accurately describe what was happening around them, and sometimes even elsewhere in the building while they were clinically dead.

A well known skeptic, Michael Shermer some time after wrote a critisism of that paper in which he attempted to debunk the claims v Lommel made in his paper.

V Lommel has since seen Shemer's paper and IMHO tore Shermer to shreads.. Here you can see his article.

www.skepticalinvestigations.org...

The Background

In his "Skeptic" column in Scientific American in March, 2003, Michael Shermer cited a research study published in The Lancet, a leading medical journal, by Pim van Lommel and colleagues. He asserted this study "delivered a blow" to the idea that the mind and the brain could separate. Yet the researchers argued the exact opposite, and showed that conscious experience outside the body took place during a period of clinical death when the brain was flatlined. As Jay Ingram, of the Canadian Discovery Channel, commented: "His use of this study to bolster his point is bogus. He could have said, 'The authors think there's a mystery, but I choose to interpret their findings differently'. But he didn't. I find that very disappointing" (Toronto Star, March 16, 2003). Here, Pim van Lommel sets out the evidence that Shermer misrepresented.

His conclusion:

Could our brain be compared with the TV set that electromagnetic waves (photons) receives and transforms into image and sound, as well as with the TV camera that image and sound transforms into electromagnetic waves (photons)? This electromagnetic radiation holds the essence of all information, but is only conceivable to our senses by suited instruments like camera and TV set.

The informational fields of our consciousness and of our memories, both evaluating by our experiences and by the informational imput from our sense organs during our lifetime, are present around us as electrical and/or magnetic fields [possible virtual photons? (18)], and these fields only become available to our waking consciousness through our functioning brain and other cells of our body.

So we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. And as soon as the function of brain has been lost, like in clinical death or in brain death, with iso-electricity on the EEG, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the reception ability is lost. People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions. And they also can experience their consciousness in a dimension where past, present and future exist at the same moment, without time and space, and can be experienced as soon as attention has been directed to it (life review and preview), and even sometimes they come in contact with the “fields of consciousness” of deceased relatives. And later they can experience their conscious return into their body.

[edit on 9-2-2007 by TheBandit795]

The implications of this report are astounding.

Not that I didn't believe it in the first place, having experienced an OOBE myself.

Evidence of a conscious mind outside of the body shines a bright light onto meditation, trance states and even lucid dreaming.

Thanks, Bandit, for bringing this.

Bandit,

OK! I really love this type of information. This one is going into my personal archives for later debates. I am really going to have to take my time and absorb this one from all angles. From personal experience I know that we are more than are body's, but this information will help people to understand.


Thanks for posting it.

RT

You're welcome guys... This is some solid evidence to me.

So is it possible that our memories are stored not in our brains but ins ome other form outside our bodies ?

This make sense to me..... perhaps we download other memories by mistake sometimes which would explain some odd feelings I get in some situations.

Originally posted by NeoSocialist
This make sense to me..... perhaps we download other memories by mistake sometimes which would explain some odd feelings I get in some situations.

Sounds like someone has been watching Battlestar Galactica. Love that show.

On topic. I've always believed in OBE. And as another poster has mentioned, I really believed it when I had my first forced OBE.

Bandit thank you. This is very interesting. It confirms a bit what we all know as truth anyways.

A family friend of ours died during a major heart attack. He was brought back. MAN was he upset with the EMTs!! He was very happy while dead and he said that it was the best he ever felt!

Well, he's now dead for good .. and I'm sure he's VERY happy about it!

Nicely said, FlyersFan.

It's a touchy subject, Death is.

To those who cannot accept the notion of our consciousness surviving beyond death, it must be the most frightening of all events in our lives.

But death is on the same scale of things as birth is and just as universal for all humans.

No-one thinks that birth is much of anything... in fact, no-one really thinks about birth at all.

But death is what we have waiting for us all and we are aware of our mortality at an early age. All our lives we live in dread of that day, because we can't fathom when it will happen or how, but happen it will.

Actually, having lived the life I have so far, I'm actualy surprised that I've survived to 60 years. I do know this, though... when it happens, I'll go 'gladly into that night'. Not that I wish for death, but in that when it comes upon me, it will be without fear of it. More than anything, it is the possible suffering and pain associated with it which I'd rather not have happen.

About my OOBE:

When it happened, I was young, about 23. I was a student in a city far from home, living on a small budget which I consistently spent on (shall we say) entertainments rather that wholesome meals. No doubt I was suffering minor effects of starvation at the time.

I was lying in my bed, likely pondering things (because that's how I've always been) when I must have reached a trance-like state.

Next thing I knew, I was looking down on my body lying prone below me and slightly to my left. 'Floating' in a corner of the room just under the ceiling, I was shocked at what I was seeing and, after an initial bit of 'wonderment', became frightened...panicked and was transported immediately back into my body.

That was 37 years ago, but the 'feeling' I had at the time is still fresh in my mind. That initial fleeting feeling was one of joy.

But, most importantly, I was conscious while I was out of my body and in a panic wished to go back where I thought I belonged.

Exactly as was written in the quote Bandit provided in the OP;

People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions.

Death is no scarier than birth... in fact, death is a birth. They are, IMHO, interchangeable. And I have personal experience/reasoning to back that one up, too.




BBCode fix

[edit on 9/2/07 by masqua]

Hi There,

It is not 'death', per se, that we fear, but the manner by which we meet it. As for post-mortem survival, I'm still somewhat on the fence, although I must admit that if any phenomenon provides our best means for a modicum of veridical evidence, then the 'near-death' experience (NDE) is that phenomenon.

We must be cautious, however, for what experiences we ascribe as being 'true' NDEs, for many are fabrications hiding agendas of dogma and doctrine. Like any other aspect of human experience, a lot of dis-information runs prevalent through NDE literature. We must discern correctly.

There is little, if anything, of religion in an true NDE, except for the cultural foundation which is post-applied to the experience, as the 'experient' seeks to assimilate the experience with meaning and purpose (if any) from it as they continue their life. Neither is there an a, b, c, to understanding it by the general public, for the NDE is a very private and personal experience, and all the elements within it are for the experient, alone; it is for their benefit only.

We can impute and speculate about many aspects on NDE, but unless one has actually experienced NDE in the first-person, one cannot possibly know or state for certain anything of it. I, myself, am not a experient, hence why I still sit on the fence, but if you want a speculative estimation from me on NDE, I would suggest that it does indeed imply a post-mortem conscious survival, everything else is just more speculative theory.

Great thread, and i don't want to derail this thread, but i made a thread about a great documentary about NDE's.

So i strongly urge anyone with an open mind to watch this, with experiences from NDE's looked into from all angles.

Video.

I don't want to distract posters away from this thread, but for reference and additional information here is the thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

just a possibility here. couldn't this just be the brain filling in the gaps between death and life?

Nope.

Some of those NDE's were veridical NDE's. Which means that the person who had the NDE was able to witness events and see objects that they couldn't possible see due to them not having any brainwave activity at the time, or due to the event happening in a different room at the time of their NDE.

One woman saw a sneaker on a ledge on the roof of the hospital that was easily seen from a birds eye view, but extremely difficult to see from a window. She didn't know about it beforehand.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
just a possibility here. couldn't this just be the brain filling in the gaps between death and life?

I can give you another example.
From the video i posted above, a blind woman, who had never "seen" anything in her life, when she had her NDE, she was not sure what to be more surprised from, dying, or "seeing" as she described it, blind people don't see "black" they see nothing, in her NDE she could describe her surroundings, and recall it later when resuscitated.

To add, i just watched this very short video, done by penn and teller, strange.
But, they make a good case for NDE's being part of the brain shutting down.

In the video, they put air pilots into a centrifuge, the thing that spins around causing G effects.
Now when pilots had passed out, alot of them report NDE like effects.

I don't know what to believe, obviously i hope there is more after death.
Bandit, what do you think of this video?
Video here.

[edit on 14-3-2007 by Denied]

Penn and Teller are comedian/magicians affiliated with CSICOP. They are not scientists and don't have anything to do with science. I'd rather base my conclusions about this subject on Pim v Lommel's research than these guys. v Lommel is a real scientist.

I'll watch the clip very soon though.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
Penn and Teller are comedian/magicians affiliated with CSICOP. They are not scientists and don't have anything to do with science. I'd rather base my conclusions about this subject on Pim v Lommel's research than these guys. v Lommel is a real scientist.

I'll watch the clip very soon though.

Ok, taking out penn and teller, what about the centrifuge issue?
Is there evidence of pilots doing this type of testing, and experience NDE like effect?

I did a bit of looking around.

The scientific method requires a phenomenon to be able to be reproducible under laboratory conditions for it to be declared a "real" phenomenon. In the early days, near-death experiences were thought by some to be just "phantom" visions and nothing more than imagination. But then Dr. James E. Whinnery, a chemistry professor with West Texas A&M, became involved with research involving fighter pilots being subjected to extreme gravitational forces in a giant centrifuge to simulate the extreme conditions that can occur during aerial combat maneuvering. Strangely enough, it turns out that under extreme g-forces, fighter pilots lose consciousness and have a near-death experience.

I had never heard of this before.

www.near-death.com...

[edit on 14-3-2007 by Denied]

It's true. I've seen that research before. The fighter pilots do have OOBE's under such extreme g-forces. But I don't see any reason why they can come to the conclusion that OOBE's and NDE's (which are OOBE's) are caused by physiological processes in the brain.

Very good information Bandit!

I had an NDE once and I was really disappointed. It was mundane compared to most and everything I experienced can be explained so easily.

If you are going to go through something like almost dying, it seems that the least you should have is a really cool NDE to share when you are revived.

Because of this, I am fascinated by the NDEs of others and the research you presented has made them that much more fascinating.

If you search NDE on google you get a lot of sites that have personal accounts of people who've had a NDE.

To me, the brain shutting down can't account for the similarity of these experiences. You can also find accounts of people who are able to leave their body and astral travel. If you consciousness can leave your physical body there the continuation of your existance after your physical body dies does not seem far fetched.

I view my body as a vehicle that my consciousness uses while in this reality. It will be interesting to find out if this is true when I pass.

Having had a N.D.E. and a O.B.E. experience - I have formulated the opinion, for now, that its merely the mind.

First, look at the nature of the different types of reported N.D.E.s
Christian goes to hell or heaven, someone else see's Buddha, etc. (its their minds last movie.)

Point - simply that they are not brain dead. Give me a brain dead person and bring them back to life, and they probably will remember the last 'movie' that was projected in the mind before it died.

They may say that it felt like a thousand years, but your dreams feel that way to.
And again, Im not aware of Brain dead victims - but as you mentioned, this article was from a cardiologist. Long way to go yet, heart to brain.

I saw when they pronounced my father-in-law dead...and then I saw a point, when i can guarantee that 'no one' was in the house...or rather, he was brain dead.

Again, point is that most peoples near-deaths are before the brain dead stage, and not only that, if they were to come back...they would re-boot whatever was last in their mind.

Like Monty Python said. "You come from nothing, you go back to nothing...what do you have to loose? Nothing."

Its an irony this life...so much we want to cling to identities...I am this, you are that.
I am rich, you are poor...you hurt me - Im better than you.

All this is rooted in one thing...fear...
Fear of going back to what we were...nothing.

True our particles feed worms...but you aint the you when you die that you 'think' you are. - note the word 'think'

In fact, our bodies are totally different every 7 years...we are an illusion, not even the same person...only neuron-nets connect us.

Many of you have seen my post and blog about this...this again, is a refresh and more concise summary perhaps.

Peace

dAlen

I will add, this is about the brain...and we need to look past what we 'dont' know about it. Just because someone sees objects that could not have been seen until hovering, or whatever, does not imply a soul. It implies that their computer terminal, which is more aware in waking life to, but more prone to it at various times like dream state, was able to send the collective data back to one terminal. Now when that terminal shuts off completely, you may get a 'print' like a 'ghost', etc...but again, I am pointing to the mind and its power in this...it may be the 'soul' everyone is looking for.

[edit on 14-3-2007 by dAlen]