Ancient Visitors to the Americas

Originally posted by Marduk
the name moses doesn't mean water at all

The Hebrew version means"I drew him out", and the Egyptian version means "Born of" just like I said. Your quote does not disagree with what I said. I really can't believe you wasted the time to argue the point since it's not an effective distraction really.

...See how you work marduk? You claim Moses is fictional, then I say no, then you argue that point? Anything to get away from the fact that pan-atlantic travel has been proven possible. Why take these side routes? I'm just responding to your claim that Moses is fictional. Even if I trip up on a name or what have you, it changes nothing.

this is another example of the Hebrews being cleverer than I give them credit for. hehe

As usual, I have no idea what you are rambling about or how it proves your point, whatever that is.

I know exactly where the Book of Genesis came from and no before you start preaching it wasn't God at all
if you want I will happily prove the origins of the book of genesis with credible links,
but it would cost you your faith so think long and hard before you ask for the details

Go ahead, since it will serve your purpose and keep us from discussing Thor Heyerdale anymor. Hold your breath observers! Marduk the magnificent is going to speak! ...No really I cannot wait for you to destroy my faith. Can I worship you after that happens?

clearly in that case you know very little about the development of languages

PITTSBURGH (AP) -- Two lines of an alphabet have been found inscribed in a stone in Israel, offering what some scholars say is the most solid evidence yet that the ancient Israelites were literate as early as the 10th century B.C.

see hebrew didn't exist until well after the 10th century

How funny that the link says "literate as early as 1000 bc" and YOU say "See, Hebrew didn't exist until well after the 10th century" ...Obviously it had to be developed BEFORE that, and as for where it came from, it was the nearby languages which influenced it. I am saying that since these cultures were all mingling at the time and their languages all stem from that time period (prior to 1000bc, actually its more like 1300bc) then they may also have shared seagoing technology. It's simple really.

you seem to think that Hebrew is a language in its own right, in fact it is a northwest semitic dialect.

I am speaking of the strict rules of the scribes regarding each hebrew letter. I am talking about the technology of scribes and the acuracy which was required of them in their alphabet. To compare the strictness of Hebrew to the choppy characters of phoenician is to close your eyes to what is there. But why are we having this talk? Because you are determined to prove my stupidity rather than your point, which cannot be proven.

I'd love to know where you are from
I'm betting its not scotland or ireland

My mother's family name is a family name of two high kings of Ireland. Not saying it means anything, but yeah, I've read a little about it. Her whole side of the family is Irish.

Marduk, did you know that all the high kings of Ireland and Scotland were crowned on Jacob's Pillow aka the stone from the bible which Jacob rested his head on during his dream of the ladder which angels descended on? So here we have the whole history of Scotland and Ireland which is connected to an Israelite patriarch and they have preserved that stone of destiny down to this day.

You are the expert who says history and religion are incompatible, but the whole history of Ireland and Scotland disagree with you, particularly in the highest respect where the kingship is decided.

the book that contains the tale of Scotia isn't even Scottish
its irish
its called the Lebor Gabála Érenn and wasn't written by Irish people either but was compiled by Christian monks. Most nationals regard it as an attempt by an unwanted religion to steal their heritage

The two countries are intimately connected, particularly in the past. Your comment about Christian monks creating this legend, is wrong. Your glossing over the destruction of the Irish histories by the crown, tells much. But hey marduk, we can take this thread as far off topic as you like. Whatever serves your purpose.

you seem to think it is unusual for a group of people who come from anatolia to not be trading with the country next door to them

Yet YOU are the one claiming they wouldn't have shared seagoing technology? YOU claim that some knowledge is impossible to impart to others, whereas I am saying it's a simple matter when all these cultures were mingling at that time, AND great historical things were happening in egypt.

if you can't even spell his name correctly you can hardly claim to know all about him can you
and once again the story which contains the character Gaythelos os from the Lebor Gabála Érenn which is about as historically accurate as the bible which it is based on

There are other records of him, and my mispelling of his name was simply another version of its spelling. This character has different G-names anyway, and his real name may have been something close but different. I am glad we are talking about this because more people need to know. Point is: Legends have kernals of truth in them, and there were great mariners in the past, and great leaders, who were clearly able to sail all the way across the med, and even farther than that. That's the only point I am making.

this is quite typical of someone who makes claims about the Hopi
they are unaware that the hopi have their own website and consistently send out information about their heritage to anyone who would want to listen
but still ridiculous claims are amde for them about Aliens and an egyptian heritage which they themselves have never claimed at all
so I'd love to know how you think their heritage is somehow related to that of Egypt when their blood groups consist of only native dna (mtdna a,b,c,d)and the egyptians is a mixture of sub saharan african and levantine

You have an airtight box there. Perfectly sealed marduk.

Hopi indians have been DNA tested this proves nobody ever sailed across the atlantic. Brilliant. This is the third time you've mentioned DNA despite the huge holes in the testing processes.

But I will research this more and post a whole different thread on it, just to make you happy. One thing cannot be disputed, and that is that around 1300bc (not long after Akenaten disappears) there is a cultural shift in the four corners are of America. As for what tribes claim what, this will all be discussed.

Like I said smallpeep you don't know anything at all about real history
your inability to provide any links to back your claims which in most cases are clearly ludicrous and based on your faith will have you looking eneducated and uninformed every time you try to discuss articles of faith with someone who does know real history.
there is no comparison for evidence at all.

I can accept the first part of this where I am an idiot, but not the last part where I am ignoring evidence. It is you who ignores that.

perhaps you'd like to start a new thread that gives evidence of why your faith is superior to anyone elses
i suggest that you do that before thinking of posting any more religious clap trap here in a forum dedicated to history

Well I now know you are fully immersed in your own effluent, so let me tell you this: The majority of humans place their highest ideals and stories in religious contexts, and have always done so through history. So if you think religion has nothing to do with history, you are in the minority.

I had a quick scan through this and seeing that there are no links decided not to bother reading it
I'm guessing that once again its full of your personal opinion none of which is relevant to the discussion at ahand

you were asked to provide links
but as you're incapable
go bother someone else with your cranky middle eastern religion and leave the facts to others better versed to be able to accept them
ok ?

Originally posted by Marduk
I had a quick scan through this and seeing that there are no links decided not to bother reading it
I'm guessing that once again its full of your personal opinion none of which is relevant to the discussion at ahand

you were asked to provide links
but as you're incapable
go bother someone else with your cranky middle eastern religion and leave the facts to others better versed to be able to accept them
ok ?

Marduk,
Does links help you promote your skeptisism?
Is this the only argument you have got to reply?

Marduk is out
2 points to smallpeeps

Deal with it buddy, you are off

By the way, you both managed to spoil the topic. How people are suppose to read through it when they see no rational flow of the specific matter?

another personal attack and scoring by your mother
your starting to get repetative you know

Well, I still say that there is a strong possibility that people have been to the new land from the old world much longer before in time than we give them credit for.

A sealed bottle can float across the ocean with some predictability, so why not a trade current that we already know exists between the horn of africa and the central american/caribbian region, with the same ability to take lost or stranded boats a various sizes and shapes across the ocean, even if by accident, and shear luck?

I would like to hear about these symbols that resemble mediteranian art, or writting that are supposedly being found in the north america region. Maybe there is lost or undiscovered evidence of a exploration party from that region of the world visiting the americas.

A sealed bottle can float across the ocean with some predictability, so why not a trade current that we already know exists between the horn of africa and the central american/caribbian region, with the same ability to take lost or stranded boats a various sizes and shapes across the ocean, even if by accident, and shear luck?

Very likely, possible,... and why not...

because a sealed bottle doesnt need food and drinking water for more than 3 months
a sealed bottle can't sink in a storm
and a sealed bottle more than anything else would leave some evidence behind of its presence
the fact that you don't know that shows the depths of your understanding
besides which
hypothesising that a sealed bottle could make the journey still isn't proof that it has

havent bottles made it across the oceans before. i think they have. it shows though that ocean current CAN carry things all the way across the ocean from one continant to the other. Missed that point did ya. So a boat could float all the way across the ocean blindly.

Also, people have survived before being stranded at sea for more than the amount of time it would take someone to starve to death. Howed they survive. You underestimate the will to live when you don't want to die.

Personally I think that the ancient egyptians and minoans had anti gravity technology that they used to get around and travel from continant to continant. The mayans saw this and depicted it on their reliefs. They then got angry at their god's for not supplying them with these machines, and those gods went to the council of nibiru to file a greivance about the other gods who showed the humans in the east the technology. Then these two groups of gods went to war over weather they should have given the humans the machines or to denie them for eternity to keep us in our places. This neatly explains the disapearences of sodom and gamorah, and why moses wanted to leave the land of egypt. He needed to 'fix' the now desolated area of judea.

Then cause moses was away from egypt the area of egypt started to fall in disaray. The gods stopped giving the egyptians gold to build their kingdom with. So, Enki pleaded with enlil to allow these egyptians to leave their homeland and travel to the forbidden land across the great sea (egyptian name for the atlantic) to look for gold in what is now middle america (theres no gold there now cause it was mined by the egyptians to build solomans tomb as a favor to moses.) Which is why there are so many artifacts found near that region. They got forsaken by their gods by worshiping with the appalachian indians, which angered all the gods and the egyptians were lost over there. They wandered around heading west giving their knowledge to other natives in exchange for small items they needed to survive. Eventually they fought with the anazazi who had advanced molecular weapons given to them by ningezzida. A calamity erupted as the weapons were used in the anazazi/egyptian war

You have voted BASSPLYR for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.

9/10 it would have been 10/10 but you forgot the pleaidean pyramid building aliens and their solar powered galactic cruisers

Originally posted by smallpeeps

Originally posted by Marduk
this is quite typical of someone who makes claims about the Hopi
they are unaware that the hopi have their own website and consistently send out information about their heritage to anyone who would want to listen
but still ridiculous claims are amde for them about Aliens and an egyptian heritage which they themselves have never claimed at all
so I'd love to know how you think their heritage is somehow related to that of Egypt when their blood groups consist of only native dna (mtdna a,b,c,d)and the egyptians is a mixture of sub saharan african and levantine

You have an airtight box there. Perfectly sealed marduk.

Hopi indians have been DNA tested this proves nobody ever sailed across the atlantic. Brilliant. This is the third time you've mentioned DNA despite the huge holes in the testing processes.

Well, in the intrerest of getting off the subject of Tetragrammaton and his Intergalactic Justice League of Super Hero Elohim, I must say here that genetic evidence cannot disprove that Native Americans are the descendants of anyone.

The four haplogroups Marduk mentions above are the most common mtDNA groups. Haplogroups A, B, C, and D are common throughout Europe, Africa, Asia and the Americas.

Recently, a fifth haplogroup "X" has been used to try to link Native Americans with supposedly European ancestors. This was because at the time that this theory developed, haplogroup X was only known in Europe. It was also concurrent with the development of the Soultrean hypothesis which attempts to link Soultrean points from neolithic France with Clovis points found in America. The idea is that the Soultrean points are the predecessors of the Clovis and thus the Clovis people came from Europe.

Unfortunately for this theory, this fifth "X" haplogroup has since been found in Siberia(The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia, The American Society of Human Genetics, 2001,) and in a variant that is much more closely related to the haplogroup X found in about 3% of the Native American population. The rest of the Native Americans are haplogroup A,B,C or D. The haplogroup X subpopulation is exclusive to the tribes in the northern part of North America. At least that's how I recall it.

This would rule out the Hopi regarding the mtDNA link in any case. But the haplogroups A, B, C, and D make up the mtDNA haplogroups of the other 97% of the Native American population, and a greater percentage than that of the world population, so mtDNA, while it might be used to prove some ancestry, cannot be used to dis prove it. Like a paternity test used to be.

I know you already know all this 'Duk. You pointed me in the mtDNA direction once.

Harte

actually mtdna a,b,c,d, is only found east of the caucasus
the dna lineages that make up the ancient egyptians are only found west of the caucasus
so you can easily say that the Hopi have no connection with ancient egypt unless you want to go back about 60,000 years in which case ancient egypt didnt exist
so whatever way you want to look at it smallpeeps is wrong

Originally posted by Marduk
because a sealed bottle doesnt need food and drinking water for more than 3 months

As has been said and as has been proven by Thor Heyerdale, food swims underneath you, when you are in the ocean.

As has been said and as has been proven by Thor Heyerdale, food swims underneath you, when you are in the ocean.

err right
that will be why he took provsions and fresh water for 4 months

On board were six crew members with provisions for four months, a parrot, and radio equipment.

www.shipsonstamps.org...

Hmmm 14 mths at sea without food and water, they couldnt possibly have survived

In the 19th century, a Japanese junk lost its mast and rudder in a typhoon on its way to Edo, was carried by sea currents across the Northern Pacific, and reached the coast of Washington State 14 months later. One of the survivors, Otokichi, became a famous interpreter. Similar events may have happened to other Chinese and Japanese sailors in previous centuries.

In hopes of returning this thread to the topic.........which is "Ancient visitors to the Americas" and the search for evidence to support this view.

The Phoenicians were known to have traded with India, are there similarities in sacrificial rites

The Aztecs sacerdotes used knives with obsidian blades and golden hilts to cut off the hearts of the scarified humans in the name of Huitzilopochtli god. The in the well known "Night Sorrow" (June 30), when hundreds of Spanish prisoners (from Cortés army) were killed, the Aztecs used the ritual described above. An identical ritual of human sacrifice was present in India in the temples of Kali (Devi, Shakti).

Could the Phoenicians have kept the location of the New World from other cultures as insurance. They had been repeatedly invaded and taxed over hundreds of years, the sacking of Carthage by the Romans in the third Punic war around 146bc being the final straw and those that could, escaped to the New World and colonised an area around the Gulf of Mexico or further down to Brazil. Diodorus Seculus writes that the Phoenicians kept the secret of the New World to themselves as well as stating that the Phoenicians and Etruscans new of an enormous island outside the pillars of hercules, this is normally associated with Atlantis myths.

phoenician inscriptions allegedly found in Brazil

We are sons of Canaan from Sidon, the city of the king. Commerce has cast us on this distant shore, a land of mountains We sacrificed a youth for the exalted gods and goddesses in the nineteenth year of Hiram. our mighty king We embarked from Ezion-Geber into the Red Sea and voyaged with ten ships. We were at sea together for two years, around the land belonging to Ham [Africa], but were separated from the hand of Baal and we were no long with our companions So we have come here. twelve men and three women, on a...shore which I, the Admiral, control. But auspiciously may the exalted gods and goddesses favor us!

(Ouoted from my GODS OF THE CATACLYSM. New York: Harper's Magazine Press, 1976, p.136.)

This inscription correlates very nicely with the bible, King Solomon making a pact with the same Hiram of Tyre to build ships for him to go to Ophir in search of gold:

The La Fuente Magna is a bowl discovered in Bolivia containing writing of Sumerian or proto Sumerian cuneiform

It is a large stone vessel, resembling a libation bowl, possibly used for religious ceremonies. It was found in the 1950's by a farmer in the neighbourhood of Tiwanaku and has since been authenticated.

Pictures of the bowl here


I do believe the Phoenicians, of any culture at the time, would have been capable of making it to the New World, however i only post this information for discussion as i am unable to verify its authenticity.

And to get this thread back on topic, damn Trolls, begone!!!


edit to tidy up grammer etc!!! my bad.
[edit on 14/2/07 by mojo4sale]

[edit on 14/2/07 by mojo4sale]

Originally posted by Marduk
err right
that will be why he took provsions and fresh water for 4 months

God man why do you make me post so much just to correct your posts? It's real work, you know? Yes they brought provisions, but as Heyerdale said, they found that light on the boat attracted so many fish that he realized his worries about food were unfounded.

Damn It! Damn It! Damn It!

The pleadians. I know I forgot something. It was nagging me too. THe pleadians helped build the pyramids but they were scared off by the annuaki. WHich wanted them off their turff to make way for more of enki's clan. THey were prepping for the third pyramid war, which never happened cause the pleadians had enough sense to get out of Marduk/Ra's way. Man was that guy violent. Marduk was planning on using the great fire cracker of ninurta, to attack the pleadians. The pleadians didn't want the business end of that fearsom weapon.

THe pleadians went over to the new world (north of the aztec empire) and created the kingdom of aztlan. Luckely the anazazi knew of some hopi who were willing to part with mystical inner secrets to defeating the death sheild of the pleadian craft, which were anathama to the anazazi. As long as the anazazi attacked the navajo afterwards (the hopi hate the navajo cause they jack all their ideas).

Well, we all know what happened next. THe pleadians defeated the anazazi but were then fearful of the wrath of the annunaki, so they hid. Fortunantly moses heard about the little pleadian escapade and he went to find them and defeat them. He parted the atlantic ocean to cross it. THe red sea was just a warm up. He found the pleadians and put some rightious ass whooping unto them, they fled and have hated the annunaki eversince. They can't really defeat them so they stage whisper campaigns behind their intergalactic back, and missinform us humans into who the real enemy is. Remember hitler loved aryans, pleadians are aryan, need I say more.

Pleadians= Evil. DOn't trust them. The pyramids were to be a more powerful version of the soul tower on the moon. They plan to enslave us ALL!!!!

Thanks for reminding me of those evil pleadians Marduk

PS while moses was in the americas kicking pleadian ass, he ran into jesus who was at the time teaching the lost tribes of the isrealites, who then went on to become mormons, but not after they themselves had to fight off the minions of satan (evil pleadian befreinding reptiods from tau epsilom) yes they have horns.

Why do you think the mormons have such elaborate vaults to secure their historical writings and that nobody is allowed to see them. Ever think about that? Also, the mormons were the ones who defeated xenu who was at one point jesus's right hand man, but like lucifer he fell into bad grace. Doubt me that mormons can fight? then you've never seen the historical biography called Orgazmo.

Now do you see why the govt. is keeping this from the public? Do you truley understand know? We can't handle the truth.

Thanks BASSPLYR for your truly useful contributions to this thread. I feel smarter already.


Anyway if anyone wants to read more about Glenn Kimball and his discoveries of egyptian themed artifacts under native mounds, here is the C2C link for his show appearances.

www.coasttocoastam.com...

Here are some of the artifacts he has found, more pics on the site. I am not a C2C member but I've heard some of his mp3s and this guy is amazing in his knowledge. I don't think these are all forgeries, but I am sure some will think so. In fact, they must.

more on Glenn Kimball here
www.robertghostwolf.com...
and here
www.truthbeknown.com...

Originally posted by Marduk
more on Glenn Kimball here
www.robertghostwolf.com...
and here
www.truthbeknown.com...

At last, you link somethings, the truth.
Jesus, Buddha, Khrisna are all fakes.
Only Mohammed the truth.

Oh, for the love of... Every time I hear "the Aztecs worshipped white bearded gods ergo they were talking about Europeans because Native Americans can't grow facial hair", I want to yank my own hair out of my chin.

Yes, Natives darn sure can grow facial hair. Many North American natives plucked their faces bald, however. This would damage the folicles, preventing any new growth, thus the miscinception that htey never could grow facial ahir. Now it's true that Natives tend to have less and finer facial hair than other ethnicities, but it's there, it's clear, and claiming otherwise is silly.

Now secondly... I don't know who this "White, bearded god" of Central American myth is. Most often I see it attributed to Quetzalcoatl, though, who is supposed to be "bearded old man in the sky" according to these sources. Very often, these claims are paired with Quetzalcoatal being the central figure of Aztec myth, and generally claim that he was crucified, too.

Bull.

Quetzalcoatl is an old, old, old god, but is not the central deity in the Aztec pantheon. That title goes to Huitzilopochli, sun-god and war-god. There is absolutely nothing about Quetzalcoatal being nailed to anything. Finally, and very importantly... there are absolutely no depictions of Quetzalcoatal being a bearded white man from period depictions. Syncretic movements have merged Christianity with the Nautal religion, equating Jesus with Quetzalcoatl in the same way Santaria equates Christian saints with the loa. This syncretism is almost certainly where this notion came from.

Along with, of course, the transcripts of conquest-minded white guys who naturally wrote home about the dumbassed natives who revered them as gods and "gave" them all this treasure. History is written by the victors, and the Spanish turned themselves into gods a a method of further suppressing a beaten people

Another thing. The claims that Native Americans needed "help" to build what they built. Why is that? Little brown savages can't do anything without the guiding white (or grey...?) hand of someone from Far Far Away? Is it simply so inconceivable that manpower can make up for a lack of technology? Not in the least. If you get enough people working on a project for long enough, you'd be amazed what you can do. Truely the belief that our collective ancestors were all a bunch of dithering idiots who needed a bunch of enlightened aliens (terrestrial or otherwise) to come down and show them How It Works is highly insulting to our species as a whole.

As for the topic at hand? Did other people come to the Americas? Well there's evidence of Caucasoid (think Aborigine or Ainu, not Irish) peoples coming to America during the Ice Age. After that, there's the Vikings at Vinland. There's some hazy evidence backing up Polynisian contact along the west coast, as well - primarily the use of plank boats and some physical features of those tribes.

Smallpeeps,

Take a look at those "artifacts". Isn't it odd how totally random they are? To presume they're authentic, one must presume that Egyptians came all the way from Egypt to Central America, to etch nonsense into irregular terracotta disks and stash them in a cave, then vanish without a trace. If one compares those items to actual Egyptian art, what they actually are becomes pretty clear - they're some rube's idea of what Egyptian art and heiroglyphs look like. It's just random garbage scrawled on rocks then soaked in mud for a few weeks for a patina.