Question on souls

I've got a question, and I'm going to direct it at the spiritual and/or religious. (since I already know how the atheists will answer it! )

Suppose a woman is pregnant with a child. Then suppose that woman loses the child somehow, whether by miscarriage, abortion, disease, mother's premature death, or any reason at all. What would happen to the soul of the unborn child? Did the unborn child have a soul at all, since it hadn't been born?

A few ideas I had:
-maybe the soul goes straight to the afterlife (heaven, or whatever you believe in)
-maybe it gets put in another womb to try again to be born, until it is successful (kind of like reincarnation)
-maybe it doesn't have a soul until it is born (I don't believe this, but it could be possible, I suppose)

So, what do you think?

well I follow Christ but I tend to believe in reincarnation. The soul a.k.a the protective vessel for the spirit leaves after death as we believe. I think maybe the soul is created or transfered at the moment of chemical fertilization.

Selmer,I am with you... I would suppose that the spirit,not the soul, but the spirit of the child is reborn into another body.

I'm sure that it would get bumped to the next baby availible

There is a train of thought that the baby doesn't have a soul until its born, at that minute. You see it in the stories were the soul a recently deceased is waiting for this baby to be born so he can jump in.

Originally posted by Royal76
I'm sure that it would get bumped to the next baby availible

There is a train of thought that the baby doesn't have a soul until its born, at that minute. You see it in the stories were the soul a recently deceased is waiting for this baby to be born so he can jump in.

Technically, it doesn't have a soul, but it does have a spirit.. Despite what many will try to feed you, there is a significant difference between soul and spirit, and not just the way they are spelt.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Technically, it doesn't have a soul, but it does have a spirit.. Despite what many will try to feed you, there is a significant difference between soul and spirit, and not just the way they are spelt.

So you are thinking that the spirit is the only thing that is truly us and the soul (although a vessel) is considered part of the body? I tend to think that the spirit is unique and the soul is similar vessel amoung everybody.

I am going to elaborate deeper (sorry OP!) *RANT*

C. Theology has the idea that we die and we go straight to heaven, although Christ never elaborated on this. Could we actually reincarnate multiple times and that heaven is actually on earth, a change in cognitive cycle a product of evolution that brings us to a higher perception?

If this is the case the lifetimes we go through are learning experiences as to what is relevant for our spirit suitable to our current level of progression. Thus we move on when we have the necessary energy (spiritual growth) for more life to feed off. A very rough example of a spirit's progression:

average Joe ---> Mother Teresa/Dr. King/Princess Diana ----> Buddha/Christ (for this example we focused on the human side of Christ)

Note that as the spirit has progressed more energy is being feed off or used from the radiation of this spirit.

Although I don't think it ends there. When you are complete with powerful energy (pure wisdom) I think its possible that you merge with an "oversoul" or higher being an thus you become this being and consequently your energy is being radiated universally becoming of service to all.

That also explains why the God of Abraham (Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu?) is acknowledged as peaceful since this is maybe how the universe logically works, and explains is why each of us is cherished and important.

Interesting although possible

/end rant

edit: spelling

[edit on 8-2-2007 by Selmer2]

Selmer2
you truly are a spiritual genius
i never told you but i learn SO much from you in just 3 days

thank you and god bless you

Originally posted by queenannie38
Selmer2
you truly are a spiritual genius
i never told you but i learn SO much from you in just 3 days

thank you and god bless you

My pleasure, I like the concept of spirituality but im only 20 not a genius

To Speaker:

Sorry Speaker of the Truth, I answered your quote vaguely what I meant to say I understand your idea that the spirit is unique but the soul / vessel is similar amongst life, this is an interesting idea if this is not what you meant please elaborate

as an atheist, may i be allowed to throw in an additional question on souls?

what if the embryo splits and we get twins?
what happens to the soul there?

do the twins share 1 soul?
does god add another one after they split?
etc
i just want an explaination on this because it is held by many christians that the soul is given at CONCEPTION, and identical twins form after that event

I gather your talking the final stage of the conception process where the sperm's tail and mitochondria transform into the male pronucleus and also after the fuse of a new male & female nucleus but your thinking after the multiplying process and whats up with the soul(s) then?

I have no idea I have not read anything on this try doing some research about it. But if the theories i've read are true then its obvious souls have merging and multiplying abilities but these only happen when its necessary say for merging with a higher being etc. Now you've got me wanting to read more . Interesting stuff.



edit: can't spell

[edit on 9-2-2007 by Selmer2]

Wow, I didn't expect so many replies! Some very interesting ideas, here. I asked the question originally because while my religion teaches that young children who die go straight to heaven, it doesn't seem to say anything about what happens to the souls of the unborn who die. My personal feeling is that the soul would get to 'try again' in another infant, though. It doesn't seem fair to have life taken before it even really begins, although it happens all the time to newborns and young children, so who knows?

madnessinmysoul also really threw me a loop with that twins question. Identical twins start from a single fertilized egg, and the embryo divides later, so that is a very interesting theological point, what happens to the soul at that point. You are, by the way, certainly welcome to contribute to the discussion as an atheist. I just wanted to forestall all of the 'there is nothing after this life so the embryos are gone forever' answers, since that doesn't really contribute anything to the question I'm asking, which assumes that there IS something after this life.

I'd also be interested in knowing, SpeakerofTruth, what you consider to be the difference between 'soul' and 'spirit'. I always thought of them as basically the same thing.

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I'd also be interested in knowing, SpeakerofTruth, what you consider to be the difference between 'soul' and 'spirit'. I always thought of them as basically the same thing.

No they are different things, I have read that the soul is the protective vessel like a capsule for physical compatibility purposes probably or something that houses the spirit. Speaker may understand it differently so lets hope he responds

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I've got a question, and I'm going to direct it at the spiritual and/or religious. (since I already know how the atheists will answer it!

)

Suppose a woman is pregnant with a child. Then suppose that woman loses the child somehow, whether by miscarriage, abortion, disease, mother's premature death, or any reason at all. What would happen to the soul of the unborn child? Did the unborn child have a soul at all, since it hadn't been born?

A few ideas I had:
-maybe the soul goes straight to the afterlife (heaven, or whatever you believe in)
-maybe it gets put in another womb to try again to be born, until it is successful (kind of like reincarnation)
-maybe it doesn't have a soul until it is born (I don't believe this, but it could be possible, I suppose)

So, what do you think?

My answers are slightly less hokey-pokey and hocus-pocus sounding ... and perhaps you won't like them... but you asked..

A Soul is the operating system that runs on the human... its constantly being updated...

A soul is your record of events for your specific body.

there isn't a bunch of souls floating around somewhere.... it's much different than that.

The soul is formed the second ANY physical creation comes into existence, the cool thing about humans is, that we can be aware of our own soul...
and we can change it, or rather, make a change in our current life BASED on our soul, thus changing the over-all soul.


Now about the child dying in the womb..

Would you still remember that?
Would others?
Everything IS aware of itself, so regardless of whether that child knew it was human or not, it still knew "it was" ... and it doesn't cease to exist, the body doesn't even cease to exist, its atoms re-configure themselves and break down and build up into something else.
But the soul... (The THOUGHT that is attached to the body) floats freely.
Floats freely where though? ... well not heaven or hell.. but RIGHT HERE.

We are just beginning to understand the science of thought.

The thing that I have come to understand is that there are two actual beings within this one physical body.
There is the body, which is physical (tangible) and requires a cycle of events to maintain survival.
and
There is the THOUGHT body, which is not physical at all (entangible) and is not bound by anything, aside from the body.
I would like to add, that it is bound by the body because it has been made to believe that it IS the body. Which it is on many levels, but it is more of an assistant to the body than anything, although I find that most people use it to destroy their body, or to dislike it. Remember GOD loves Ugly.. lol
Find it funny how thought would get discouraged when its counter-part(the body) can't keep up? or accomplish its goals? Especially since the body only cares about 3 things.. food, shelter and sex.
So thought attacks the body and criticizes it.

oops

God THANK YOU for 'undo'!

[edit on 2/9/2007 by queenannie38]

what happened queen annie? .. lol

oops what?

When my 4-5 year old nephew caught his mother crying and asked why, she decided to be honest with him and tell him that she was feeling sad over the abortion she'd had many years ago. She explained it all to him in 4-5 year-old language and told him that she wondered if she'd done the right thing.

My nephew (always a brilliant and precocious little boy) said, "Mom... that was me..." And he said it in a way that suggested she should have already known that.

Originally posted by Selmer2
edit: can't spell

Mephistopheles will now help you spell who runs the golden bee down in our lovely hell

god's speed

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
My nephew (always a brilliant and precocious little boy) said, "Mom... that was me..." And he said it in a way that suggested she should have already known that.

well then no doubt it is absolutely true
120%

did she believe him?
and forgive herself?

those little ones we sometimes must postpone
just go right back in and wait until
and they look at the world through our belly button window

it is all good
so good
oh so good

I have read this thread through and have some answers that the majority may not have considered. Or perhaps they have considered them and have decided that since they fall under the term “religion” they are not the answers for which they are looking.

Perhaps it is best to start from this premise. That God is:
1. Omnipotent - having unlimited power or authority; all-powerful
2. Omnipresent – present in all places at the same time
3. Omniscient – knowing all things

So, God knew my twin or me before creation began.

Ignatius Bible, Revised Standard Version.

All of Psalm 139:
Especially verse 13

For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb.

and verse 16

Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

I believe that we are infused with a soul at conception. This soul uniquely belongs to me, no other body has had it and when my body dies, this, my soul, will either be on its way to hell or to heaven.

There are some verses in the Bible that lead me to believe that the soul is unique to me.

Hebrews 9: 27

And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,....

The story of Lazarus, a poor man, and a rich man. After they had died and Lazarus was carried by angels to Abraham's bosom, the rich man was in Hades, in torment. The rich man asked Abraham for help and Abraham said,

Luke: 16: 25-27

Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.

When an unborn child dies, this child’s soul will go to heaven.

In the case of twins, please remember that God is God and knows that 2 humans will be the result and so he provides the other soul. Don’t ask me how, He is God and can do anything.

Originally posted by Mahree
I have read this thread through and have some answers that the majority may not have considered. Or perhaps they have considered them and have decided that since they fall under the term “religion” they are not the answers for which they are looking.

Perhaps it is best to start from this premise. That God is:
1. Omnipotent - having unlimited power or authority; all-powerful
2. Omnipresent – present in all places at the same time
3. Omniscient – knowing all things

So, God knew my twin or me before creation began.

Ignatius Bible, Revised Standard Version.

All of Psalm 139:
Especially verse 13

For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb.

and verse 16

Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

I believe that we are infused with a soul at conception. This soul uniquely belongs to me, no other body has had it and when my body dies, this, my soul, will either be on its way to hell or to heaven.

There are some verses in the Bible that lead me to believe that the soul is unique to me.

Hebrews 9: 27

And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,....

The story of Lazarus, a poor man, and a rich man. After they had died and Lazarus was carried by angels to Abraham's bosom, the rich man was in Hades, in torment. The rich man asked Abraham for help and Abraham said,

Luke: 16: 25-27

Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.

When an unborn child dies, this child’s soul will go to heaven.

In the case of twins, please remember that God is God and knows that 2 humans will be the result and so he provides the other soul. Don’t ask me how, He is God and can do anything.

Thank you! This is what I was thinking on scripture when reading the posts. I feel the same way. Well stated!