'Rogue pilots' friendly fire

Originally posted by Chris McGee
I'd agree with that in principle but in this particular case I don't think there were any reports of the Iraqis having orange rockets and, again in this particular case, it seems a little hesitation wouldn't have hurt their mission at all.

Well, there's always gotta be a first report, right? I agree that mistakes were made, but it wasn't solely on the pilots part. He was told repeatedly there were no friendlies in the area. Hindsight is always 20/20, but I can only imagine when you're in a war and your adrenaline is pumping, judgement may not be at it's peak. It should be when you're throwing around that much weight, but we're all human and there's no way to be sure if roles were reversed and it was british pilots searching for armor and being told there were no allied forces in the area, that they wouldn't have made the same decision. Since we had more planes in the sky, it's just a given that there were more opportunities for our pilots to be in situations where poor coordination causes them to make mistakes.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The pilots in this case followed proper protocol and procedures...
[edit on 6-2-2007 by WestPoint23]

I never knew that firing blindly, without remorse was part of the american procedure. wow, it amazes me how much you americans get influenced by your government or is it just a case of denial?

Originally posted by toga112
I never knew that firing blindly, without remorse was part of the american procedure.

Imagine that, fighting a war where you're actually glad to kill the enemy, who woulda thunk it!

[edit on 8-2-2007 by WestPoint23]

Im not sure if you've been reading the whole of the forum but to sum up. THE STUPID PILOT SHOT ALLIES. A-L-L-I-E-S

Thanks for the heads up. However the "stupid" pilot did not know they were allies (friendly) at the time of the attack; since you and others have been making some noise about these 'merciless' pilots.

Well you would think that since they have all those devices on the jets and since the tanks had huge orange stripes down the side of them they might have an idea of whats an enemy and whats a friendly troop. Also, the ground troops sent up a smoke signal showing that they were friendly and STILL the pilots attacked them a 2nd time and were swooping in for a third. And even if they were enemies, the pilots could show a little remorse about attacking them. I mean, straight after the pilots turned on the radios again and were told the troops were friendlys the 1st thing they said wasn't "oh no, i killed my own troops" it was "oh no, im going to jail because im a *SNIP* idiot."

Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 8/2/2007 by Mirthful Me]

I now have conclusive proof of the catalogue of errors I have posted on this thread, I have tried to tell people here that this particular case of fratricide was caused by incompetance by the pilots. (A catalogue of errors were made by US forward air control also) but the pilot pulled the trigger!

I apologise for some of my British countrymen on this thread that have posted without thought and without knowledge on the incident. I am not an American basher, although I do have my moments, but the truth is more important than nationality.

I have said that the pilots did not give exact co-ordinates of the British Recce troop!

I have said the pilot did not have authorization to fire!

I have said quite alot on this subject actually and most of it has fallen on deaf ears.

My God, the pilots weren't even trained to identify to freindly forces in Iraq!

I have trawled the MoD intranet for 3 hours trying to find this document, it is a scan of the original in .pdf format.

Now please read this THOROUGHLY it is difficult to read as it is made up of military jargon but PLEASE read it.

www.wikiupload.com...

I hope this silences the sceptics.

Be safe



[edit on 8/2/07 by Jimmy1880]

Umm... "toga112", most of what you're saying has already been covered and explained. So I'll link individual posts and other sources if you want to read them.

Originally posted by toga112
Well you would think that since they have all those devices on the jets and since the tanks had huge orange stripes down the side of them they might have an idea of whats an enemy and whats a friendly troop.

Linky to Post

Originally posted by toga112
Also, the ground troops sent up a smoke signal showing that they were friendly and STILL the pilots attacked them a 2nd time and were swooping in for a third time.

Nope, smoke went up almost a minute after the second attack was done, not during or before. By that time the pilots already knew they were friendly, and no they did not swoop for a third attack.

You can read my summary here or watch the video for yourself (the link is below).

Originally posted by toga112
I mean, straight after the pilots turned on the radios again and were told the troops were friendlys the 1st thing they said wasn't "oh no, i killed my own troops" it was "oh no, im going to jail because im a *SNIP* idiot."

Why this keeps persisting is beyond me, but please watch the entire video for yourself HERE

[edit on 8-2-2007 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Then another pilot comes on and says that they look like rockets on top.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Then another pilot comes on and says that they look like rockets on top.

Yes that makes sense, having bright orange rockets on your tank. That would blend in perfectly in the desert sand. "Don't worry boys, no-one will notice us we have luminous orange rockets we'll be ok." Now i know why WW2 didn't end quicker, its because our troops weren't dressed in bright yellow jumpsuits with glowsticks. Hoenestly westy, uses your head.

and the man who defended the pilot said that us brits should "stop sucking your thumbs like you did in WW2", the us entered the war almost three years after it began, we had been fighting for three years, and the suckign of thumbs was done by you lot, not us

and the part about being told not to "Help" but to "co-operate" is an order, why should we follow what you lot say? im sick of seeing our country being told what to do by the us

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
Here is a link to an official MoD inquest into the incident, I have uploaded it and it comes from the MoD intranet it's a scan of the original in .pdf format, it is ok the paper is declassified!

www.wikiupload.com...

Am I being ignored?

If you download the .pdf and read it clears up EVERYTHING it's not written by a journalist with a bias it's written by the board of investigation for the MoD.

Or are people afraid of the truth in case it debunks their agenda?

Originally posted by smi617
and the man who defended the pilot said that us brits should "stop sucking your thumbs like you did in WW2", the us entered the war almost three years after it began, we had been fighting for three years, and the suckign of thumbs was done by you lot, not us

and the part about being told not to "Help" but to "co-operate" is an order, why should we follow what you lot say? im sick of seeing our country being told what to do by the us

Riiight, us huh. Last time I remember it, the Germans knocked you guys on your ass and pushed you back home to your island.

last time i remember, you didn't see it as your problem until the japanese kicked your ass as pearl harbour. And even if you did give us backup, you made a really bad job of it.

For those unable to use the previous link here's a better one;

LCpl Hull Official inquest

[edit on 9/2/07 by Jimmy1880]

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
Am I being ignored?

If you download the .pdf and read it clears up EVERYTHING it's not written by a journalist with a bias it's written by the board of investigation for the MoD.

Or are people afraid of the truth in case it debunks their agenda?

No, you're not being ignored. I can't download anything cuz I'm at work, I don't doubt that alot of mistakes were made, but being that none of us know the pilots, judging their moral character is completely speculative. Maybe they were too aggressive, wouldn't be the first time in either of our militaries I'm sure that people disconnect the thought of the enemy being human to help them cope with killing. Not everybody snaps, but some do, and we don't know. Either way, I think we can all agree that they did not intentionally kill their allies.

What is really kind of annoying is how any kind of military debate between the US and UK members turns into a WWII crap fest. We ALL worked together to win that war (I mean our countries since most of weren't even born).



[edit on 9-2-2007 by 27jd]

Originally posted by 27jd


What is really kind of annoying is how any kind of military debate between the US and UK members turns into a WWII crap fest. We ALL worked together to win that war (I mean our countries since most of weren't even born).



[edit on 9-2-2007 by 27jd]

This annoys me also! I just ignore those unable to have a proper discussion. It really kills a thread when people act in that way.

when are US forces going to start teaching unit recognition PROPERLY ?

Originally posted by Jimmy1880

Originally posted by 27jd


What is really kind of annoying is how any kind of military debate between the US and UK members turns into a WWII crap fest. We ALL worked together to win that war (I mean our countries since most of weren't even born).





[edit on 9-2-2007 by 27jd]

This annoys me also! I just ignore those unable to have a proper discussion. It really kills a thread when people act in that way.

Well if we're gonna agree about anything it this, it's just daft cause most wont have seen war, hopefully never will on that scale and nevermind the sheer brutality. Too many bad war movies

Have read the report, suggest everyone else does the same. Errors on both sides as with almost any fratricide, however it's clear the pilots deserve some of the blame.

[edit on 9/2/07 by C ROBERTSON]

[edit on 9/2/07 by C ROBERTSON]

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
when are US forces going to start teaching unit recognition PROPERLY ?

I don't know that they aren't already, this incident happened four years ago. Another good question is when IFF systems will be fully compatible and why they weren't already before this incident.