Best All-Purpose Semi-Auto Rifle

I am not exactly in the market yet for a rifle, but my friends have some cool ones and goto the local shooting range, and i'd like to eventually purchase my first gun. I'm 24, no felony convictions.. no violent crime convictions, my worst offense has been illegal possession of alcohol by a minor when I was 19 turning 20! And in Canada that wouldnt have even been considered illegal, pssh. Anyways..

I don't want anything too powerful, too heavy, or has too much recoil. The price and craftmanship matter as well. Here's what ive narrowed it down to, but my knowledge is small about whats out there.

The M16, domestic version with only semi auto capability. Arent these known as AR-15s? anyways, i know these are light weight, precision shooting weapons, and that gets alot of plusses in my book. Also, it fires the NATO round so in an apocalyptic scenario where all hell brook loose, ammo would be easy to get. I've also heard the .223 ammo is cheaper.

Then theres the AK74, or AK101-103 models. I know some of those are in use by the Russian Federation military as standard guns. I bet these are just as expensive, to get a real Russian made nice black one with composite and plastic materials to lighten the gun. These fire various sized rounds..

The AK-47 knockoff market is immense! And this gun has flavor. It has style.. it is, pardon my term, 'ghetto fabulous'. Known as a symbol of resistance across the world, the AK-47 is "cool" to own. You are the "cool guy with the AK47" .. but, it fires the 7.62 round, which has its pro's and it's cons. From what i've read, NATO rounds inflict better wounds than the bigger round because of "yawing" or some weird thing it does when it goes into the tissue of the body, creating a more grievous wound? Yeah. So the NATO round sounds better for shooting people, and the bigger classic AK round sounds more for like.. trying to shoot people that are wearing body armor or are taking cover behind steel, brick, or concrete of various depth. I know the bigger round is ideal for this. If you havent noticed, I'm talking about the merits of the NATO AK47 models and the regular AK47 big round models. Bulgaria, Romania, Chzech Republic all make these .. with the NATO round.
(let me state I have no intention on ever using a gun on a human being.)

Theres other guns, like that Dutch gun with the top loader? You place the clip, which is weird and kinda like a flat row of bullets in a thin container that you pop into the literal top of the barrel of the gun, its a short length gun from end to end. I dunno the name, but someone surely does, it is distinct from the top loader feature.

Price matters alot too, and I'd be purchasing the gun hypotheticly for #1 reason being sport. My second reason would be self-defense if ever necessary, or the protection of my family/friends. If self defense was my main concern, id get a handgun. I really would like to own and take care of a rifle, and have fun getting a good aim with it. Probably because I was supposed to get a family heirloom musket from the Civil War, but my Father sold it when I was only a couple years old. Bastard!

How pimp would that have been? civil war musket? can anyone picture made-up "mujahedeen" pictures with a towel folded around the face and the olive green fishing accessory vest, you know the one that looks like the crap the terrorists wear on the videos lol. Anyways it wouldve been funny to take such a picture holding a civl war musket.. *sigh*.

I guess ill have to wrap an American flag around my face in the same style that middle easterners do with their checkered cloth, and tote an AK47 for a photograph! What a laugh that would be.

Yeah and the fact that I can get an AK .223 round, made in Romania, for like $400-$500 dollars for a decent one. A Russian made one with the larger rounds tend to go for as much as a nice M16/AR15 so what the point in that?

Anyways, can a gun expert who has fired some of these guns give me some advice?

[edit on 1/28/2007 by runetang]

This really depends what you want to do with it. If you want a piece of history, a good one is the AK versions, and I recommend the 7.62x39 -vs- the 5.45x39 round. More authentic and better hitting power as well as cheaper ammo to buy in bulk. If you want to hunt, well a very good all round rifle is the Winchester 30-30, or again, the 7.62x39 round in the Ruger Mini-30 which comes with a 5 round magazine which is legal to hunt deer with in Michigan anyway. More than that size mag will get you a fine, and less caliber like a .223 is also illegal to hunt deer in some states. If you want a "plinker" I would recommend another Ruger, the 10/22, in long rifle .22 cal. There are so many aftermarket accessories to this handy and accurate little semi-auto rifle, it is just fun to shoot and plink. On top of that, it is a good small varmit rifle, and the ammo is dirt cheap. When you can blast away 500 rounds for under 10 dollars that is a lot of fun for the money. These suggestions are non specific, and if you want a real accurate gun, or a longer range gun for game I might suggest a 30.06 cal which is good up to medium to larger size game at more respectable range. A good target gun might be a bolt action of some sort but you will have to experiment which cal you want and then there is the wonderful world of reloading your rounds, which is fun, and very rewarding if you know what you are doing. Exposure to the art of what you want will lead you to where you want to go with this. If you don't know what you want yet, start by what round you want, and it's purpose and the rest will follow. There are a lot of real good guns out there for what ever you want to do. I hope this helps.


[edit on 29-1-2007 by Hiphar]

Go with the AR-15, its a good option. Although you might want to check your local gun laws if you are a civilian. Here in Southern California, you would need to have a AR-15 with a fixed magazine of no more than 10 rounds. If not, than you must not have a pistol grip, flash suppressor, bayonet lug, or folding stock. I think the better option is the fixed magazine. You can find "California Legal" AR-15's from here:

www.atlanticfirearms.com...

As an example of deadly force from an AR-15, the "Beltway Sniper Attacks" were carried out by a Bushmaster XM-15.

en.wikipedia.org...

They are accurate and deadly, and I personally own 4 of these.


[edit on 29-1-2007 by SWAT Life]

There are many semi-automatic rifles -- the hunting/sporting kind, and those of original military design. Since you talked mostly about AKs and ARs, I'll weigh in on that.

AR-15: Most costly of the ones you mentioned, but well-made and works well. Good long-range capabilities. Ammo is cheap and easy to find. Tight tolerances may make it finnicky in certain environmental conditions.

AK-47/SAR-1: Much cheaper than AR. Not as well-made at the AR, but works well. Range not as great as the AR, but fires a heavier bullet which may be better against "hard" targets, like vehicles and buildings. Ammo is cheap and easy to find. Loose tolerances means it can function in even the harshest conditions.

Ak-74/SAR-2: see above on the AK-47/SAR-1, except -- fires a round comparable to the AR. Bullet is designed to tumble upon impact, and does similar, if not worse damage to soft targets. Not as effective against hard targets. Ammo is not too cheap, and not too easy to find. I've stockpiled a small stash a few years ago.

Ak-47/SAR-3: Same as SAR-1 and SAR-2, but fires the 5.56/.223 round (see other thread about the 5.56-.223).

If you're looking at the 5.56/.223, I'd go with the AR-15
If you're looking at a Soviet weapon, go with the AK-47/SAR-1 due to ammo issues.

Of these, I'd probably go with the AR-15, even though I have an AK-74...

Go to AR15.com, that site has intel on the AR-15 and AK. If you do go there join and use the search function and ask it the questions.

I just married my Rock River Arms lower half to my RRA upper half last night, now I have a A4 national match rifle. Will start to break in the barrel today. Barrel break in is something you must learn.

Roper

"Then theres the AK74, or AK101-103 models. I know some of those are in use by the Russian Federation military as standard guns. I bet these are just as expensive, to get a real Russian made nice black one with composite and plastic materials to lighten the gun. These fire various sized rounds.."

Black composite/plastic material is the AK101-103. Great guns. I was never a fan of the AK-74. When it came out as the standard rifle in the military some soldiers were not happy with the preformance of the round it had compared to the AK-47.

"The AK-47 knockoff market is immense! And this gun has flavor. It has style.. it is, pardon my term, 'ghetto fabulous'. Known as a symbol of resistance across the world, the AK-47 is "cool" to own. You are the "cool guy with the AK47" .. but, it fires the 7.62 round, which has its pro's and it's cons. From what i've read, NATO rounds inflict better wounds than the bigger round because of "yawing" or some weird thing..."

It has style alright. Great weapon. The difference between an M-16 and an AK though is that an M-16 is a rifle, and an AK-47 (or any AK) is a carbine. An AK is accurate up to 700 meters on single shot (and the bullet will not curve up to that distance but go straight), despite what all the western documentaries and websites say. That is ofcourse if you know how to use it. As for what the rounds do to the human body: if a 7.62 bullet was to hit you in a joint...like your wrist or elbow it will blow off whatever was below it, or leave it hanging barely. At 100 meters (you can fire full auto easily at this range) an AK-47 will incapacitate a human body. The AK like I said is a carbine, the theory behind it's creation was that most combat happens at ranges of 400 meters. It still has a killing range of 1 kilometer (1000 meters), which means the bullet will kill whatever it hits at that distance. Anything past that and the bullet slows down. Like someone mentioned above, it will work in conditions that most rifles in the world would jam easily.

"Theres other guns, like that Dutch gun with the top loader? You place the clip, which is weird and kinda like a flat row of bullets in a thin container that you pop into the literal top of the barrel of the gun, its a short length gun from end to end. I dunno the name, but someone surely does, it is distinct from the top loader feature."

This is the P-90, I don't know much about it besides that it was meant for tank crews. If the reason you are looking for it is because you need a small but powerfull weapon though I suggest checking out the AK-74U. It's as small as an MP-5 (smallet if you fold the butt) but fires same ammunition as an AK-74. I think that the P-90 is way cool just because it's so unique.

"Probably because I was supposed to get a family heirloom musket from the Civil War, but my Father sold it when I was only a couple years old. Bastard! "

lol that sucks man.

"Yeah and the fact that I can get an AK .223 round, made in Romania, for like $400-$500 dollars for a decent one. A Russian made one with the larger rounds tend to go for as much as a nice M16/AR15 so what the point in that?"

Whatever you do, DO NOT get yourself a Romanian AK. They're the worst AK manufacterers. It is a good price for an AK but the quality you'll get will be a rip. And yes, each country makes it differently. If I was you I'd buy from the country that invented the weapon. If it's too much cash to spend then it's your call. personally though if I could get a black composite/plastic AK-101 from Russia I would pay even if it cost like a decent M-16. AK-101 are not something you see lying around everywhere where as with an AK-47...it's like mushrooms after rain, they're all over the world.

Regards,
Maestro

First and foremost I am a lifelong fan of the Ar15, but I must say after buying and testing out the Daewoo DR300 over the last year and a half, I have pretty much sold myself on the fact that not if but when a "Red Dawn" type survival situation should transpire here on my native soil, that I would have my designated "Woo" as my all purpose rifle of choice and at the ready.

Just get an old SKS, same cal as the AK series (7,62x39mm), but atleast 2 times cheaper.
Also, you can get 30rd mags (conversion kit) for it. Most of them have a fixed bayonet aswell.

Maestro46
I don't know how you will be able to hit a target with a 7,62 and iron sights at 1km range... just think about it.
You can barely see past 300m mark with no optics, 1km is just crazy.
The effective range for it, that is with no optics of anykind is the same as for most other AR's, ~250-300m.
5,45x39, smaller, lighter, goes faster, recoil is barely noticable.
if you can get your hands on 7N series easily (very unlikely thu) get it.

At 100 meters (you can fire full auto easily at this range) an AK-47 will incapacitate a human body.

You don't go full auto if you want to hit something at 100m.
You fire shirt controlled bursts. Squeeze the trigger, say 22 in your head, and let it go, the result - 2-3 rounds, old SA/CA trick
just trying to be a smart ass.

Best regards.

Originally posted by kaskad
Just get an old SKS, same cal as the AK series (7,62x39mm), but atleast 2 times cheaper.
Also, you can get 30rd mags (conversion kit) for it. Most of them have a fixed bayonet aswell.

I was going to recommend an SKS as well. Although I dont recommend the conversion for 30 rd mags. Everyone I have ever known who has tried this has had serious issues.

Anyway, you can get an SKS for between $100-$200 depending on where you get it.

The russian SKS are more highly sought after but will cost you more for one in decent shape. The chinese ones tend to be a bit beat up but they are good.

Id recommend a yugo.

I have not done the 30rd mag convo, but I have used it a couple times (a few hours or so). Just seemed easier/faster to reload, if you know what I mean. Have no idea as to how reliable it is thu.
What kind of issues are you talking about?

I was an armorer at Ft. Campbell, KY. for 2 years. I am a certified armorer on the following;Berretta, Glock, AR-15/M-16, AK-47, SKS , and more. I currently work as an armorer for a Denver PD. My list of privately owned Weapons is much more extensive.

3 Glock pistols
One .45 1911 style pistol
One .22 target pistol
2 AK-47s
One SKS
2 AR-15 rifles
One M-1 Garand rifle (everyone should have one of these, they are great)
several rim fire rifles in various calibers
2 center fire bolt action rifles.
Every long-gun Kel-tec makes.

I tell you this not to brag, but to give you a background into my advise.

The ar-15 and ak-47 rifles are great weapons, But unless you really need them or you are a collector like me, I wouldn't get it. Same with AK-47. In order to obtain a quality assault rifle in those 2 styles will cost you about 1000 dollars.
A general rule with ar-15s and ak's are , you have 3 choices and can only pick 2 of them . Fast, cheap, and quality. You cant have all 3, pick 2.

Real honestly I would look at the SU-16 rifle from Kel-Tec. It is light and ergonomic, takes ar-15 magazines, and its cheap. About 40% the cost of a quality AR-15.
Su-16 link
Heres a link to another forum witha SU-16 torture test Mods delete this if it breaks rules about other forums, sorry.

If you want a pistol caliber carbine( much cheaper to shoot and practice with, about 30 cents to the dollar) think about a Kel-tec Sub2000. It folds in half for easy storage and is very easy to operate. A plus is you can order it to use any mags you want( mine uses glock mags, because they are very reliable and you can buy 33 round mags).
Kel-Tec Sub2000

Both of these rifles are extremely reliable, accurate , and easy to shoot. I would defiinatly recommend them to a new gun buyer. But its your money and your choice.

If you do end up getting an SKS , DO NOT get one with the 30 round conversion. Only about one out of 20 is done correctly, causing them to mis feed constantly.

ANOTHER HELPFUL HINT

Stay away from sites like Gunbroker.com, you can get much better prices and quality weapons at pawn shops. Don't buy new if you don't have to. The warranties on guns transfer with ownership. by the way , kel-tec warranties are forever, like glocks. They even pay for shipping if it need to go back.

If you want a pistol , get a glock or a XD. Glocks are VERY EASY TO SHOOT , Just look at this video, its the first time my sister ever picked up a gun. She said its ok if I put it up here.
Wait for it to load , takes about a minute.

First time ever.
Heres a link to yet another forum with the most extreme glock torture test ever done

[edit on 31-1-2007 by Tiloke]

Originally posted by kaskad
I have not done the 30rd mag convo, but I have used it a couple times (a few hours or so). Just seemed easier/faster to reload, if you know what I mean. Have no idea as to how reliable it is thu.
What kind of issues are you talking about?

Loading issues...The stripper clips come with 10 rounds. The original magazine is designed to hold 10 rounds. Once you place ten rounds in the mag (whether it be a 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 round), the little bolt-catch drops, and the bolt will close.

To load an aftermarket high-cap. mag. for the SKS, you have two options:

1) disassemble the weapon, load the 30 rounds in the mag, and reassemble the weapon, repeat.

2) load the first 10 rounds with the stipper-clip, then hold the bolt open while you load the remaining 20 rounds one at a time. It can be done, but hard to do if you don't have three hands

After these problems, I decided to remove the high-cap. mag. from my SKS and leave the factory 10 rounder on it. I can shoot and reload that way than using the 30 rounder.

Hope this explains.

I have owned virtually all of these rifles plus....
My very faves were the AR with a heavy target barrel cost 1259 canadian bucks...
And a dae woo korean assault rifle which is half m-16 and half AK....believe it or not....cost about 1100 can$
I scoped the AR with a mount i ordered from a texas company...
The dae woo i kept over iron figuring if the excrement hit the air circulation device it was easy to convert to full auto...
M-16 mags fit both in all sizes 5s20sand 30s
The dae woo is far less finnicky and just as robust.
AK ammo is very likely to leave residue that is acid in yer tube if you dont clean it chinese stuff is the worst.
I had a 223 AK from china that jammed all the time when not held rock solid in two hands while laying down cover or rapid fire..took it back got another and same trip....
My Hbar would shoot one handed all thirty if you wanted to.it was a Colt.
Newer pistols are pretty dandy glocks sigs etc.
But i will always prefer my stock or racing Colt 1911 s in 38super cal which i hump up to 12-1300ft/sec in the loader and have shot major cal ipsc style for many thousands of rounds without many jams or failures.Big plus is a ten round magfull too!
The 1911 is still one of the best allround pistols you can own for simplicity and robust performance,But stay away from 9mms and get something with a little more poop iif you want a one or two round (double tap)stop.
For big wrists and strong hands a 10 mm delta 1911 is very hard to beat,but if you are slightly built, 38 super is so much more comfy and snug...at 1300ft/sec the right bullet is a flat shot over 100yds with a colt commander 5in bbl.I know i can knock down steel plates at that distance with my scoped up 38 super race gun one round each.I have done it before......
If you have a lady with a need for something light in a rifle, the hbar wins again, and a daewoo is equally good.
In 223 caliber at 20 yds i have put rounds through car bumpers at an oblique angle, and they are supposedly able to pierce an army helmet at 800meters.
Between the AK and the 223 under100yds id pick the 223 for penetration..
i have shot 223s through cars long and sideways....
Those big pathetic 9mm barettas the services pack are only good because of their high ammo capacity,but one shot stoppers they are not...
Been playing withn guns a long time,and i am sure there was a better caliber choice but nato required 9mm for compatability....
They kindly switched to 223 for the same reasons though the barrel twists were incompatable with ours at first, the new nato rounds are universal.
The rifle with the mag on top of the barrel shoots caseless ammo, and is a german product.the mag holds 50,there is no brass.just a propellant block with a bullet stuck in it and a cap at the other end.It has a rotry bolt which looks promising too.
I have not heard any reports about it for some time...but the german feds have it and their border patrol types too.
(they also use mp5s )but thats another thread..........

I'm sorry but that SU-16 is ugly. It may work well but I don't want anyone at the range making fun of me.

I did some checking and a AR can be had for under 700$. My Rock River NM A4 cost me 810 $.

Go to AGI and get their DVD on building the AR, then one can put an AR together fairly cheap.

Roper

I'd like to see someone make contact with an AK at 700 meters. Someone show a verified range report.

To answer your original question Yes there is a lot of ak47 junk out there selling for big money when it belongs on the junk rack with the $60 .22 rifles and beaters.

There is only 1 brand of ak47 that is suitable for drum magazines or sustained fire and that is the Norinco Chinese type 56 and variants (MAK 90). This is because the receivers are 50% thicker than other manufacturers and the Russian, and eastern block versions. The US navy seals tested every type before selecting the clear winner- Norinco. These thicker receivers to not flex when they heat up and thereby have almost no jams under heavy abuse. These were designed for.....Surprise....the Chinese 75 and 100 round drums.

Lesson here is don't buy a rifle at 20 and open it up when your 40 to find out weekend trips to the range have pretty much chewed up all the insides and its constantly jamming because the receiver was heat stressed and now flexed. Do like the Navy Seals and Buy a Norinco brand rifle in 7.62x39, and now these are very scarce so it will take a while or you need to get lucky to come up with one. There used to be tons of Norinco MAK 90s around but people figured out the thick receiver part pretty quick and now they are scarce like hens teeth. There are other cheap mak 90 knockoffs. You want the brand.


Do you want any drums? Same thing. there is a reason why Chinese drums sell for $275-300. They work. A cheap romanian drum sells for $129. You can never tell how much is in the thing and you must load and unload each round by hand which will give some swollen fingers after an hour or so at the range. It must also never sit loaded fro more than a month or the spring goes out. A Chinese drum can be opened and a button pressed and can sit for decades with no spring tension and with a couple twist of the key its ready.

The shops are full of do dads, junk, lasers and crap for the outside. You don't need much or any of it. The bread and butter for the shops is the gadgets, not the guns. Go old school and don't depend on gadgets that will let you down or batteries go dead at the last minute. Old School is the way.

Good gadgets are things like rubber magazine caps. drop a full magazine and the heavy end hits first and ruins the feed lips. $25 down the toilet.
Rubber mag caps also keep dirt and mud out if you drop them in th field. A good investment for any semi auto but hard to find. Cheaper than Dirt sells cleaning kits and tools to work on them for peanuts. Numrich arms can usually come up with rare or hard to get parts.


Now that you have your new toy and you found out you are getting arthritis from punching holes in paper every week, its time for mag loaders. Carmenga makes an OK one that will put 15 rounds in a magazine at one time. The better option is the cheap tin stripper clip adapters. You can buy ammo preloaded on stripper clips. The tin adapters with stars on the side allow you to snap three stripper clip into the magazine and be ready to go. They are cheap tin and will bend and break regularly so plan on buying new ones on a regular basis. they make them for the AR but they break just as often.

Now you need one of the dozens of different pouches. Shop around and get a good one that fits your style. If you were lucky and got some Chinese drums buy drum pouches to protect those.

All of these things together form a Shooting System. They all work together. These systems are unfortunately only really complete, for the AK, AR, M1 carbine, and others that were military backbone arms. That is where you want to make the purchase choice.

Don't get confused by all the offerings and how cool one looks compared to the others. Do the research and find out the best one and the shooting system that goes with it. Know that for every semi auto you will spend an equal amount gathering up all the needed items for its system.

This is before you even start throwing hundreds of dollars out to feed it and all of them are pretty hungry critters. I started shooting about your age with some buddies that were well off, when it was all I could do to come up with enough loose rounds to show up. Keep the cost of ammo in mind. Range fees are not bad but all of those will go up as everything else does. Never be afraid to buy a crate or large can of ammo when its on sale. You gun will eat every bit of it and want more.

Have fun, be safe, and keep em in the black.

Ruger 10/22. They're great!

edit - and you'll be able to shoot it constantly for how cheap .22 ammo is.

[edit on 6/14/08 by vinrock]

Originally posted by runetang
Theres other guns, like that Dutch gun with the top loader? You place the clip, which is weird and kinda like a flat row of bullets in a thin container that you pop into the literal top of the barrel of the gun, its a short length gun from end to end. I dunno the name, but someone surely does, it is distinct from the top loader feature.
[edit on 1/28/2007 by runetang]

believe you are speaking about the FN P90 with toploading clip containing 50 bullets.
its not dutch its belgium made.

I would go with a mini 14,they been around for a longtime and look sweet as heck when u get the stainless model with 30 rd clips and the choate stock along with a red dot scope and eagle hk type flash surpressor.

Bushmaster M4/A3 with 30-round mags. A real performer in dirty situations.

And, just for grins and giggles, pick up a Rem 870 Police Magnum, and load it up with 12 gauge Dixie Tri-Balls. Each shell contains three 50 cal slugs. Especially useful should a rhinoceros break into your home in the wee hours.