Successful Black Prejudice

Here's a question I'm asking in another thread, but not getting an answer yet.

What's wrong with abandoning a culture? What's wrong with a black person leaving the black culture and living in the white culture? What if a person doesn't like the culture they grow up in and finds another one more appealing? Should he hold himself back from pursuing a culture he thinks he might be more happy in?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Here's a question I'm asking in another thread, but not getting an answer yet.

What's wrong with abandoning a culture? What's wrong with a black person leaving the black culture and living in the white culture? What if a person doesn't like the culture they grow up in and finds another one more appealing? Should he hold himself back from pursuing a culture he thinks he might be more happy in?

It's about getting what you want imo. While not Black I also encountered this choice. My home province of Nova Scotia was quite well off until the federal gov't sold us down the river some 25 years ago. The economy went in the tank. The last job I had there, about 10 years ago, paid $1500 a month gross, with 2 days off/month. My wife and kids were on welfare, I couldn't provide for them, I lived elsewhere. In 1997, I decided that that was enough, no way to raise a family. I moved to Ontario, a totally different culture from my laid back home. This isn't home, I don't really like it but the family is together and we have a home of our own and we're living quite well.

You do what you can to get what you want. Nothing wrong with that imo.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Here's a question I'm asking in another thread, but not getting an answer yet.

What's wrong with abandoning a culture? What's wrong with a black person leaving the black culture and living in the white culture? What if a person doesn't like the culture they grow up in and finds another one more appealing? Should he hold himself back from pursuing a culture he thinks he might be more happy in?

I'm only responding to this because I have a great response to it. Otherwise, I'm through with it. These aren't my words, though; they are the words of the great Langston Hughes.

From The Big Sea, by Langston Hughes:

"I asked some of the leading Washington Negroes about this [segregation], and they loftily said that they had their own society and their own culture-so I looked around to see what that was like.

To me it did not seem good, for the 'better class' Washington colored people, as they called themselves, drew rigid class and color lines within the race against Negroes who worked with their hands, or who were dark in complexion and had no degrees from colleges.

...They were on the whole as unbearable and snobbish a group of people as I have ever come in contact with anywhere...[They] seemed to me altogether lacking in real culture, kindness, or good common sense.

...They had all the manners and airs of reactionary, ill-bred nouveaux riches-except that they were not really rich. Just middle class. And many of them had less fortunate brothers or cousins working as red-caps and porters-so near was their society standing to that of the poorest Negro. (Their snobbishness was so precarious, that I suppose for that very reason it had to be doubly reinforced.

To seem people of culture, they performed in an amazing fashion."

There you go, straight from the pen of the great poet Hughes. And now, I'm through with your culture abandonment discussion.

Edit: Oh, yeah. The emphasis is mine wherever you see bold.

[edit on 9-2-2007 by truthseeka]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
What's wrong with a black person leaving the black culture and living in the white culture? What if a person doesn't like the culture they grow up in and finds another one more appealing?

Please, lets not preted we are talking about Laurence of Arabia types here. Most black people who abandon their culture in America do not choose to do so out of of some sincere appreciation for another culture, they usually choose to do so out of a hatred for their own.

I'm not pretending anything. And I'm sorry, I don't know who Lawrence of Arabia is. I've heard the name, but have no idea any about more than that.

I hear what you're saying and I'm sure that some people leave their culture because they hate their own (and is there something wrong with that? There are cultures I hate). But I'm just as sure that people are attracted to another culture and leave their own because they desire a different image or relate better to another culture.

I'm just saying I don't think we can just assume that because a black guy gives up hip-hop for video games and starts hanging out with other white guys who play video games, that he hates "his people".

Ha ha ha ha ha!!!

Guess Hughes stumped you, eh, BH? I notice you have nothing to say about what he experienced FIRST HAND.

Don't worry; I didn't expect you to.



P.S. You have to do a better job at defining black culture. I play video games with my white friends all the time, and white people buy more hip hop CDs than black people.

Upon reading your post a second time, I noticed something I missed.

You mentioned video games as if black people don't play them. I won't ask what you meant by that (that would be too much fun); I'll just say that Ceci is so right about you. For shame. :shk:

Originally posted by truthseeka
Guess Hughes stumped you, eh, BH?

No he didn't stump me. I was asking for opinions (plural) and now I have Hughes' but I don't have yours. Not that I care really. But I still don't know what's wrong with leaving one culture for another.

The Hughes guy apparently thinks that when black people leave their culture that automatically means they're racist. Big surprise, there.

I have nothing to say about his experience except that I'm sure it has happened. That doesn't mean that what happened to him always happens.

And my question was what's wrong with leaving one culture for another. Without any racism overtones or anything. Just what's wrong with Oprah (for example) let's say, not wanting to be a part of black culture. It doesn't automatically mean she's racist, but I'm getting the feeling that you'd label anyone who left the black culture as racist even if they weren't.

And I thought:

Originally posted by truthseeka
I'm through with your culture abandonment discussion.

Why come back? Need a little drama?

P.S. You have to do a better job at defining black culture.

I have no interest in defining any culture. I was using what's called an example.

And your example was patently FALSE.

Until you can define black culture, you can't talk about abandoning it.

Unlike what most of the white ATS members seem to believe, "ghetto" culture is not equal to "black" culture. Hell, when you say "ghetto," you think black, even thought the original inhabitants of ghettoes were Jews (sorta like when you hear "holocaust," you don't think about a great burning, but you think about WWII ).

Do all black people live in ghettoes?

Do all black people who leave ghettoes adopt white culture?

Think about that before you run your mouth about how great it is to abandon one's culture...then again, it's common for members of a dominant group to preach assimilation to the subordinate group.

[edit on 11-2-2007 by truthseeka]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The Hughes guy apparently thinks that when black people leave their culture that automatically means they're racist. Big surprise, there.

Ha.

"The Hughes guy" LIVED and DIED in segregationist America. "The Hughes guy" had RELATIVES who were a part of the self-proclaimed "better class Washington Negroes." "The Hughes guy" describes instances when these blacks DID INDEED act racist to him, as when a lady snubbed him at a dinner, then bent over backwards to apologize once she realized who he was.

And, he did stump you. If I hadn't said anything about it, you would have NEVER said anything yourself, even though you were "so interested" in an answer you brought that question from another thread. I ain't even got to show where you did this, cuz you know you did.

I have no interest in defining any culture. I was using what's called an example.

Ha.

Yet, you want to run your mouth about how there's nothing wrong with abandoning one culture for another.

Keep up this line of thought. It is VERY ENTERTAINING.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I'm just saying I don't think we can just assume that because a black guy gives up hip-hop for video games and starts hanging out with other white guys who play video games, that he hates "his people".

Weird example, every black guy I know loves video games.

Sorry, but yes we can assume that most black men in America give up their culture because of a hatred for their own.

Besides, I don't really think it is an assumption at this point. Did you catch TS' "white doll" reference earlier, are you familiar with the study?

[edit on 12-2-2007 by phoenixhasrisin]

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
Weird example, every black guy I know loves video games.

Oh, for Christ's sake! I said it was an example. If I said "for example let's say kids above 16 drink orange juice and younger kids prefer grape drink."

And you guys come in and say "Hey! I drink grape drink and I'm over 16! What a weird example. You don't know anything about kids if you think they don't drink orange juice. "

Jesus. Why are you guys trying to make something of my EXAMPLE???

If you can't get past the example I don't think we can talk. And frankly, I'm done with it. Forget the question. I don't care anymore.

No need to get hysterical BH.

All I said was that it was a weird example, which I thought it was. Then I continued on to my point, which you didn't even touch BTW.

I'm not hysterical!

I'm just tired of having my question avoided. Of course I read TS's post. That didn't answer my question either.

My question was: What's inherently wrong (if no hatred or revulsion were present) with a person leaving one culture and going to another that he finds more suitable? And you seem to want to get more wrapped up in the details of why people DO switch cultures than answer the question I asked. I'm just tired of asking it over and over again. I'm tired of getting wrapped up in the details. I really don't care that much.

My opinion is that there's nothing inherently wrong with switching cultures. I think people take offense to it because sometimes there's hatred involved.

And OF COURSE I don't know much about any culture of young people. I'm a 50 year old white woman with no kids. Why would I even care who buys rap and who plays video games? Yet you guys keep calling me out on my example. :shk: It's just not worth it to me.

No offense intended (you know I like you phr) and no problem.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I'm not hysterical!

I'm just tired of having my question avoided. Of course I read TS's post. That didn't answer my question either.

I know. I thought I did answer your question though. I'll try again.

Sure, there is nothing inherently wrong with adopting another culture. Like I said though, this is usually not fueled by a genuine appreciation for another culture, this is usually fuled by self hatred.

When the motivation is self hatred, then yes there is something wrong.

You stated that we can't assume that it is usually fueled by self hatred.

Once again, it is not an assumption.

Are you aware of Dr. Kenneth Clark's tests during the 40's? Have you seen Kiri Davis's film "A Girl Like Me,"?

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
Sure, there is nothing inherently wrong with adopting another culture. Like I said though, this is usually not fueled by a genuine appreciation for another culture, this is usually fuled by self hatred.

Thank you!

While I see self-hatred as a problem, I don't see it as strictly a black problem. But I understand what your saying.

Is it possible for a black person to hate "black culture" without hating himself?

(I hate "white culture" and I'm fairly fond of myself. )

When the motivation is self hatred, then yes there is something wrong.

Yes, but because self-hatred is a problem, not because abandoning a culture is a problem.

You stated that we can't assume that it is usually fueled by self hatred.

I know it happens and it's probably more often than not that a black person leaves their culture because of self-hatred. But what about a white person leaving theirs? Is self-hatred a problem then? Or they simply attracted to something more interesting? And less pastey?

Are you aware of Dr. Kenneth Clark's tests during the 40's? Have you seen Kiri Davis's film "A Girl Like Me,"?

Yes. I have brought it up and talked about it in other threads.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Is it possible for a black person to hate "black culture" without hating himself?

(I hate "white culture" and I'm fairly fond of myself.

)

I don't see why not.

But what about a white person leaving theirs? Is self-hatred a problem then? Or they simply attracted to something more interesting? And less pastey?

No, not really.I honestly think white people have been doing it for so long that it's really just second nature to them.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
While I see self-hatred as a problem, I don't see it as strictly a black problem. But I understand what your saying.

Phoenix didn't say it was strictly a black problem. He was quite general of anyone who abandons their culture.

(I hate "white culture" and I'm fairly fond of myself.

)

Riiiiight. So I guess you have now adopted Chinese culture, Jamaican culture, Mexican culture, or some other culture, seeing as how you hate white culture so much.

If you don't understand what Hughes is saying, that's not my fault. Like Phoenix said, self-hatred is a reason for cultural abandonment, but I'd like to add that assimilation is the other. Which is why members of dominant groups preach assimilation to members of subordinate groups in the same society.

Why do this, instead of accepting pluralism?

Some of my potnas and I share aspects that you (BH) would probably consider as us adopting white culture on the surface. HOWEVER, the last thing we want to do is to adopt white culture. We just realize that we have to have white people on our teams if we want to make real money in America. At the end of the day, though, we retain our culture.

And this points out the futility of discussing white/black/native/mexican/whatever cutlure as if 'culture' is some big monolithic 'thing'.

To speak of "x culture" is a generalization, with all of the dangers of generalizing. While generalizations have their place, it is VERY easy to slip into the trap of lazy thinking when using them.

I also don't care much for "white culture". I have internalized some aspects of it, as well as some aspects of culture that are generally associated with non-white groups. But I reject the majority of behaviors that are generally associated with 'white culture'.

So to say one MUST take on ALL aspects of culture X is short-selling the complexity of being human, and buying into the cookie-cutter, faceless generalization of culture that the wealthy corrupt power elite culture wants.

(And yes, I see the irony of my reference to the wealthy corrupt power elite culture as a monolith. )


[edit on 12-2-2007 by Open_Minded Skeptic]

OMS,

So to say one MUST take on ALL aspects of culture X is short-selling the complexity of being human, and buying into the cookie-cutter, faceless generalization of culture that the wealthy corrupt power elite culture wants.

I could not agree more!!!

To simply lump every white person into some obscure, undefinable (Real definition, not some made up opinion) of "Dominant Culture" is ridiculous and without merit.

I come from a dirt farm in West Virginia where my Granny raised me on 123.00 a month in Social Security. I have now struggled my way to at least upper middle class, in what can be described as a Metro-Tourism area; and I can tell you the Cultures are COMPLETELY Diametrically Opposed.
They are no more the "same" culture than comparing apples to oranges. Yet there seems to be a consensus among some posters to classify anyone that is white into a Dominant culture mold and "that" is simply racist in and of it's self. The posters I speak of become upset anytime we tend to generalize, (See the previous posts) and yet find it perfectly acceptable to generalize when discussing this hypothetical dominant culture that exist perhaps only in the minds of those that can not, or will not see.

Well, speaking from one that has not been in the "Dominant Culture" for very long, I salute your clarity..

Semper