Prove me wrong and I'll change my faith

It seems that both ATS and BTS are just full of threads that pit the atheist against the believers. We keep doing this topic to death.

Faith is illogical. Atheism is best. Jesus is the only way. There is no proof of GOD. We're all going to hell. Faith is insanity. The Bible says, "_______" fill in the blank. Etc, ad nauseum.

I truly don't see anything new being introduced. All I see is bickering.

I would like to see this though:
I want one person to tell me how my faith in GOD is hurting them. How does my going to church damage you? When I read my sacred text, what pain do you feel, what inconvenience must you suffer?

I have never insisted that my beliefs be adopted by another. I have never told anyone that my answers are the only answers out there. I have never tried to take over the world, kill anyone, discriminate against those who don't share my beliefs, or convert a single soul.

I am not trying to rain on your rights to bicker amongst yourselves. You are entitled to feel anyway that you want to feel about faith, religion, GOD, etc. I just think we are beating a dead horse and I want to liven things up a bit.

Here is my challege to people on both sides of the argument:

If a single soul can tell me how my religion or faith hurts someone or does any harm whatsoever, I'll change it.

No, I am serious. I promise in front of everything that is sacred to me: Demonstrate the harm my faith does, and I'll change my faith.

I won't accept reasons like, "I love you so much that it hurts me to see you believe as you do and therefore you should change .... or (my) GOD wants you to change and his/her feelings are hurt by your beliefs." I think that these would be major cop-out excuses. I want real reasons why I am so wrong. I want to hear real examples of how my faith harms you.

The point of my challenge is this:
My religion doesn't hurt you, so why must you try to change it? I think that this is what my exercise will prove.

If I am wrong and someone is able to demonstrate that my religion should be changed and/or abandoned, then I truly win, because I am made a better person, I am put on a better path.

Let the challenge begin.

I second that motion.

[edit on 23-1-2007 by tylersch]

Thats what I find funny overall in these discussions.
Its a bunch of bickering with both religious people and atheists in these discussions trying to push others to agree that what they believe in is correct.

I simply don't care what anyone believes in and personaly don't believe in any deity's.

But sometimes, when a religious person starts telling me I'm going to hell or whatever if I don't believe in their god, I do reply but not with bickering.

Mostly the argument I bring up is "What is it to you what I believe in or not?"
And, "If there were to be a god, why would he send me to hell and you to heaven if I'm a good person who leads a good life and helps others when and where he can, if that god of yours sends me to hell, simply because I don't believe in him or worship him, then even if he exists, hes no god or entity I would want to worship and he also seems a deity any good person would fight against in the name of justice and honor?

No one can prove you wrong, you have to prove yourself wrong.

It is the same with your faith, you have free will to believe in God he won't force it down your throat. Athiests are funny because they want to see God right in front of their own eyes defeating the purpose of faith and thus free will.

note: no disrespect to athiests I refered to funny as perplexing

[edit on 23-1-2007 by Selmer2]

I understand what you are saying thematrix. It's really no one's business what others believe. I don't like someone's beliefs being pushed on me either. I think that the people who keep bickering are in it just to bicker. It seems to me that they want to argue, amass points, or have their beliefs validated by others, but mostly it just looks like they want to argue.

I just wish they'd be honest about it. Why not just start a thread saying, "Hey I feel like arguing with you again!" Since that wouldn't fly, some start threads that are obviously going to lead to the same old arguments.

It's all pretty pointless, and that's the reason for my challenge.

Originally posted by Selmer2
No one can prove you wrong, you have to prove yourself wrong.

Why should I prove myself wrong? About what? Like most people, I think I am right and therefore there is no proof that I am wrong. Maybe I just don't understand what you are saying.

edited spelling

[edit on 1/23/07 by wellwhatnow]

Originally posted by thematrix
Mostly the argument I bring up is "What is it to you what I believe in or not?"
And, "If there were to be a god, why would he send me to hell and you to heaven if I'm a good person who leads a good life and helps others when and where he can, if that god of yours sends me to hell, simply because I don't believe in him or worship him, then even if he exists, hes no god or entity I would want to worship and he also seems a deity any good person would fight against in the name of justice and honor?

Yes, we a all the same in the eyes of the infinite a.k.a creator, if someone tells you otherwise they are BS.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
If a single soul can tell me how my religion or faith hurts someone or does any harm whatsoever, I'll change it.

No, I am serious. I promise in front of everything that is sacred to me: Demonstrate the harm my faith does, and I'll change my faith.

You only need to look at history to see the harm a lot of religions bring on people, the mass murders for not converting or believing in there god(s), the Crusades that lasted 200 years in the name of Christianity. As for examples today, well look around you. Look at Christianity's positions on gays or for that matter anyone who's not Christian, gays are condemned as 'intrinsically evil' or more politely people who are ill and need to be cured. How about the women who you want to deprive the right to abortion even if it means both the mother and child die anyway.

Thats a couple of reasons why Christianity is wrong in my eyes but the thing is you don't follow Christianity, you may think you do but chances are you don't, not word for word anyway, you follow it the way you see fit ignore some parts and accept others, most likely you have altered your perception of Christianity to suit your own beliefs.

Belief in god(s) is not wrong, even if there is no proof of its existence however belief in a religious practice obscured and altered to suit the needs of whoever in charge (i.e. the pope, etc. not god(s)) is wrong because your not following what god(s) may have set out for you to follow your following what #insert powerful religious leader# wanted you to follow to keep you in control and use you to there ends.

I'm not Atheist btw.

Originally posted by Edn
Thats a couple of reasons why Christianity is wrong in my eyes
I'm not Atheist btw.

Nutjobs in religion do not just apply to the Vatican, example Islam, the very interesting Aryan Church of God and the list goes on...

Oh I know Its a problem with almost all religions, in the end they all serve man and not god(s) as the so falsely claim, you can argue otherwise but history proves this. Its also why most religious followers today do not follow there religion word for word and pick and choose what they want to believe, id go as far as saying that most Christians, Muslims or Jews.. are not Christians, Muslims or Jews... for the simple reason that they do not follow there religion word for word as they are asked to do by there religious leaders who claim god(s) said so, or its in this man made book so you must.

Originally posted by Selmer2
Nutjobs in religion do not just apply to the Vatican, example Islam, the very interesting Aryan Church of God and the list goes on...

please don't tell me you're comparing the whole of islam to the aryan church of god...

anyway
reason why faith is wrong #1
if you're going to stretch it to 1 being, why not stretch it to the other pantheons of deities that are equally improvable?
why not include invisible celestial teapots and invisible pink unicorns (it's invisible because we can't see it, but we have faith that it is pink)?

I think on an individual level faith and belief is not an issue.

However, organised religions are a political tool to be reckoned with, as Haggard noted, when these people are gathered as a force they can act to manipulate policy and even elections. Now fine, these people should vote for who they like, but when they act on the words of a church leader in a moral crusade, I think we have a problem.

When we have people on school boards who are using their faith to manipulate school lesson plans to conform to their belief systems rather than the subject itself, we have a problem.

When we have leaders who consult 'a higher father' on important policies that effect all people in some way, I think we have a problem.

When we have people using morals derived from an interpretation of some ancient book to restrict the freedom of other individuals to own and determine what happens to cells in their body, we have a problem.

When we have people being lied to for faith-based reasons about health choices that may lead to them acquiring deadly diseases that can readily be passed onto their children, we have a problem.

When we have people of faith restricting scienctific advances that could lead to solutions for a myriad of health problems because of interpretations of an ancient book, we have a problem.

On an individual level, faith is not a massive problem. I think it can be an issue when people can allow themselves to be open to all kinds of snake-oil salesman, but again, if they think paying for something like psychic surgery will heal their cancer. Fine, it really is their choice.

I believe in the freedom of expression, if it makes you happy, I think you should believe whatever makes life most bearable for you. However, that belief should also not restrict the advancement of society, deceive people for religious motivations, or restrict other people's freedom of expression.

[edit on 23-1-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
It seems that both ATS and BTS are just full of threads that pit the atheist against the believers. We keep doing this topic to death.

Faith is illogical. Atheism is best. Jesus is the only way. There is no proof of GOD. We're all going to hell. Faith is insanity. The Bible says, "_______" fill in the blank. Etc, ad nauseum.

I truly don't see anything new being introduced. All I see is bickering.

I would like to see this though:
I want one person to tell me how my faith in GOD is hurting them. How does my going to church damage you? When I read my sacred text, what pain do you feel, what inconvenience must you suffer?

I have never insisted that my beliefs be adopted by another. I have never told anyone that my answers are the only answers out there. I have never tried to take over the world, kill anyone, discriminate against those who don't share my beliefs, or convert a single soul.

I am not trying to rain on your rights to bicker amongst yourselves. You are entitled to feel anyway that you want to feel about faith, religion, GOD, etc. I just think we are beating a dead horse and I want to liven things up a bit.

I would just like to point to the thread titled i.e. "moving past religion 101",
and remind some that this section of the board was delegated by the mods with these purposes in mind...

ALL MEMBERS READ - Moving Past Religion 101 and Staying on Topic

The Faith, Religion, and Theology forum exists as a place for member to discuss three important items.



Faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

Religion - A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

Theology - The study of the nature of God and religious truth; rational inquiry into religious questions.


Venturing into this forum and participating in these discussions implies that you are interested in these topics. Of course you may have accidentally stumbled into this forum unaware, but now that you're read the above definitions, you can't claim ignorance. The very nature of the topics will plunge you headlong into the unknown. Who created us? Why are we here? What is out purpose in life? What happens after we die? Will the Dallas Cowboys ever win a Super bowl again? (Requires much faith to believe).

Some of the topics in this forum will most certainly deal with the existence of God. Does God really exist? While this is a worthwhile topic many members wish to move past this introductory theme, past Religion 101, and would like to dive into deeper topic of religion and faith. Are Christians required to keep all of the 10 Commandments including the Sabbath day? Are the teachings of Mohammed peaceful, a beneficial for people today? Do Mormons really believe in polygamy? Do all Buddhist monks have flashbacks before battle? We can't begin to truly discuss these topics if we're constantly arguing about if God is real or not.

If you have questions that deal with the existence of God or want to ask if Mohammed actually was a real person or a myth, then please start a new discussion with a meaningful, appropriate title and you may then dominate a new discussion with this theme in mind. Please do not interject into deeper religious topics the question of the reality of a higher being? Unless stated in the topic, we are assuming in this forum that we've moved on past that point. Imagine discussing algebra while someone keeps interjecting that they still don’t believe in addition. The very reason that classes such as these have prerequisites is so new ground can be covered in the subject.

Not to ruffle any feather's but it's not called
"THE LACK OF FAITH, SPRITUALITY, THEOLOGY" forum section...

Sorry for yelling, that was "my bad"!!!
Apologies to all,
carry on with the discussion I'll just sit back quietly and read now.....

Originally posted by Selmer2
No one can prove you wrong, you have to prove yourself wrong.

Why should I prove myself wrong? About what? Like most people, I think I am right and therefore there is no proof that I am wrong. Maybe I just don't understand what you are saying.

edited spelling

[edit on 1/23/07 by wellwhatnow]

You are asking for proof your belief system is correct, others can only give you their reasons. Only you can find out for yourself if you are on the 'correct' path there are infact many, but again this only relevant to your belief system.

Please don't ask me to break this down further as I want to play BF2

[edit on 23-1-2007 by Selmer2]

I say: voluntary discussion is great

sharing one's ideas of one's god is good when it is sharing and willing

we all gain in our inner life with God (or not)...one GOD but yet each of us have or GOD (or not)...same one, though.

Just one but yet many united by mind...

ECHAD is God.

Pink teacups, spaghetti monsters, horned horny goats, and even minotaurs are okay.

WHY?
BECAUSE our GOD is your god/godess/devil whatever!! OR maybe our GOD doesn't exist. STILL we all share the same one.

Sounds messy, but really i think the key to religious freedom is DISCRETION and respect.

(my motto but only for to share with you all)
Three things you keep to yourself (i.e. from your parents, kids, and casual friends and neighbors) unless you don't want a peaceful, private, adult-type, quiet life:
1 Sex
2 Drugs
3 Spirituality

sometimes politics but not so much in my life....not that i'm keeping things as lies in secret but because:
discretion is the better part of valor
and
it is easiest to love your neighbor when you are close to their heart and far away from their personal business...

Originally posted by Edn
… but the thing is you don't follow Christianity, you may think you do but chances are you don't, not word for word anyway…

Actually I am not a Christian at all. I was ambiguous about my stance on purpose. I see believers lumping all non-believers into the same heap, as if all atheist were the same. I see atheist lumping all believers into the same heap, as if they were all Christians.

I believe in GOD, just not the Christian version. I have a sacred text, just not the Christian Bible. My religion (Unitarian Universalism) does embrace two things that can be found in Christianity:

1) Don’t do to others what you wouldn’t want done to yourself.
2) Love your neighbor.

Historically, Unitarian Universalism did have some Christian influence. The points above are what we now retain. As far as Jesus, Heaven, Hell, and all that - well Christians are free to believe what ever they want, I just don’t believe it.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
if you're going to stretch it to 1 being, why not stretch it to the other pantheons of deities that are equally improvable?

Unitarian Universalists actually do extend their beliefs to encompass all possibilities. A UU is free to worship Christ, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Pink Celestial Teapot, or anything else. Some UU’s are atheist. However, this challenge was about me personally, so here are my beliefs:

GOD is not a being in the first place. For me, there is no “person of GOD.” GOD is the sum of all the magnificent forces around us, both scientific and spiritual. GOD is the Guiding, Organizing, Designing force that includes evolution, gravity, magnetism, etc. GOD is the cycle of life. All things are governed by this same GOD process (to quote my Bible)

There is a deep power in which we exist … RWE 3:4

When it (GOD) breaks through our intellect, it is genius. When it breathes through our will, it is virtue. When it flows through our affection, it is love. RWE 3:10

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Faith is insanity.

Please. Say that again.
The most truth i've heard in aeons.

oh, wellwhatnow please accept my apologies. When I read your post you did not mention you were a Unitarian Universalist I assumed you were Christian due to the first couple of paragraphs mentioning it.

I had read about UU a while ago and have to say its probably one of the few religions that I agree with, allowing people to explore there beliefs instead of using fear to restrict them as many religions usually do.



:bnghd: Still cant believe I fell into your little trap lol

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
please don't tell me you're comparing the whole of islam to the aryan church of god...

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here, I assume you understand there are two sides to every coin.

anyway
reason why faith is wrong #1
if you're going to stretch it to 1 being, why not stretch it to the other pantheons of deities that are equally improvable?
why not include invisible celestial teapots and invisible pink unicorns (it's invisible because we can't see it, but we have faith that it is pink)?

I'm a nice guy but please let me rationalize your statement:

I know (I surrender my belief as unconventional fact) God exists, which does not mean I rely on evidence to support this. Many people serve multiple Gods, including it to involve invisible x or invisible y may seem like taking it too far but is an one example of many causes resulting from the action of free will.

Thus, there are multiple points of view which are valid but free will is free will, and every made decision involves or comes against boundaries or in this case law, the law of God or Deity x, y, or z.

This is why I love my God I like to consider im on the shiny side of the coin.

Universalism makes sense to me in that it is totally undivided.

I don't plan on organizing or running any church, but I did just recently become a minister for the Universal Life Church which is HQ in Modesto CA.

Wolfman Jack was my inspiration for doing so.
He was one, also.

i can legally perform any legal ceremonies for persons residing in New Mexico. i could technically be tax exempt but that isn't anything i even have thoughts about since i never have enough income for it to matter.

i just wanted to be able to provide others with true religious freedom while still enjoying the full benefit of the state government's laws for marriage, et al.

i think it is awful for people when something comes up that traditionally requires a member of the clergy - and they don't know any and don't go to any congregation type religion. Especially funerals and weddings! Nothing can spoil such an important ceremony as an impersonal or too-personal stranger! I can be personal and not a stranger with anyone after speaking to them for just a little bit - i'm not interested in religious choices but rather want to give others what THEY want and need when they do. I know my god on a first name basis...they surely do, too. I want to know them - i will serve my god by serving their god by serving them. We are all ONE anyway! God is ONE we are ONE and 1 + 1 = 1 is the exception to the rule!

there is a list of others in other states at the site - or a link to such a page, i'm pretty certain. I find their philosophy flawless - and totally impartial yet supportive for all. ULCHQ.com

In the booklet i got in the mail with my certificate is simple and straightforward.

This most impressed me:

The Universal Life Church stays between you and the state not between you and your god.

AND:

The Universal Life Church has only one belief or doctrine. We only believe in that which is right! Every person has the right to interpret what is right for themselves, as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others. You are the judge of your life, and I'm sure you that you will do that which is right!

I can't see anything more simple or true. God is god - we don't need to tell one another about our God in order to make them know our god. Their god is our god but not the same yet all the same ONE GOD.

If that makes me 'anti christ' then so be it. Time to give peace a chance. John and Yoko said and i know they are true.

Christ didn't come to spread peace anyway...he came to plant a seed and spread the sword! He succeeded on both! and we will all succeed because he cared more about the new life than his own life! His life is our life - all of us. We are now aware of at-one-ment with Christ if we continue in love. Christ Jesus is fueling our love but we are the body - ALL of us! The sword will no longer be sharp but inky instead.

To whoever said "faith = free will" I couldn't agree less, but if thats what you think, good for you.