Faith: a Release of Insanity That no Rubber Room Can Contain

Hey guys, here is my second post on BTS. It's about the nature of faith. Here we go..

Faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

The only reason people believe in God is faith.

With faith, you can make up anything, and believe in anything, among them: the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Flying Pink Unicorn, and the Orbiting Celestial Teapot. All of which could be possible, but are pretty stupid, illogical and unfounded.

Let me put that in an even more critical light: people in insane asylums often have nothing more to support their beliefs than faith. One that believes he is superman will have enough faith to believe in it.

Sam Harris, from Beyond Belief 2006, describes this more powerfully than I can:

The problem is that religion, because it has been sheltered from criticism in the way it has been, allows people, perfectly sane...perfectly intelligent people, to believe en masse what only idiots or lunatics could believe in isolation.

If you wake up tomorrow morning convinced that saying a few latin words over your breakfast cereal is literally going to turn it into the body of Julius Caesar or Elvis...you have lost your mind.

But if you believe that a cracker becomes the body of jesus at the mass, you're very likely perfectly sane, you just happen to be catholic.

But these beliefs really are equivalent, and they are equivalently crazy

If you don't hold things up to a scientific and logical standard and just believe in things by making them up, which is the equivalent of faith, then you open the door to every possible insane belief. The only thing that seperates the insane beliefs from the sane ones based on faith is that people are insane together en masse and thus are a force that no rubber room can contain.

Follow-up Portion: (not from original version)
Faith is basically saying that in cases where the all the evidence points one direction and there is no evidence in another direction, you find it of sound mind to believe that the direction where no evidence is pointing and all evidence is pointing away from is the best choice.

All I'm advocating is making the best choices and faith-based decisions are not the best choice.

This is like making a bet on how many times a coin will land on tails and how many times a coin will land on heads if you flip it 100 times. The best choice is to bet on it landing 50 times heads and 50 times tails. The faith based choice would be to chose 100 times heads and 0 times tails because all the evidence points torwards 50:50 but none of it points towards 100:0.

Thus, by gambling on 100:0 you are gambling on a position that is believed without any evidence and so by definition is faith-based, even if it intuitively just feels right.

The faith based decision could be right, but only once every 100^2 times, or once every ten-thousand times. Any professional gambler in Vegas would tell you that the faith-based guy is about to lose a lot of money.

Originally posted by RedDragon
Faith is basically saying that in cases where the all the evidence points one direction and there is no evidence in another direction, you find it of sound mind to believe that the direction where no evidence is pointing and all evidence is pointing away from is the best choice.

All I'm advocating is making the best choices and faith-based decisions are not the best choice.

Sometimes the best choice is what makes the most sense to someone for them to be happy and not necessarily what everyone else thinks should make them happy.

This is like making a bet on how many times a coin will land on tails and how many times a coin will land on heads if you flip it 100 times. The best choice is to bet on it landing 50 times heads and 50 times tails. The faith based choice would be to chose 100 times heads and 0 times tails because all the evidence points torwards 50:50 but none of it points towards 100:0.

Statistically yes, but in reality there is no way to tell the best bet because it is for this purpose apparently random. Children have lots of faith in things and for the most part (without considering the crap we put on them) seem fairly happy. And it is probably due in a greater part by not having to think about what is best all the time.


I would also like to add that your comparison to insane people might be only partially correct. Some of the insane do have good evidence why they believe the things they do - they hear voices and see visions. Technically, all they see and know makes them believe they are Jesus or Satan or whomever. That is not faith in the unseen but believing in something as real as watching an airplane fly through the air to us.

EDIT: I wanted to also add a little more here. Looking at your avatar, it is apparent that you like dragons. What is one to think about you that you really enjoy the lore of a mythical creature? What about elves and fairies? Why do people go to see the movie LOTR's? I know you will probably say they arent real and that you find them fascinating or something, but maybe a lot of people believe in Angels, Demons, Muhammad the same way?? Not sure but thought I would throw that at you.

[edit on 23-1-2007 by ben91069]

faith isn't necassarily insanity
just like all things, it can lead to insanity
however
it just seems like people willing to check their rational thought processes at the door
faith (in the religious sense) on its own is actually fairly benign

Personally I think people aren't consciously aware of how language influences people's thought processes.

If someone doesn't accept the Holy Bible perhaps it is because they think the thing is a Whole lie and they don't Buy Bull.

But, then again i could be wrong ...



Edit to add:

Have a great day.

thanks,
john

[edit on 23-1-2007 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Personally I think people aren't consciously aware of how language influences people's thought processes.

true, most aren't
but then again, some of us are
i think i started realizing it after i read 1984
it made me think

But, then again i could be wrong ...

ET, this is why i love you
you're one of the few people that actually admits the possibility of fault on FST

Join the club ladies, it's an insane world.

RedDragon: You misunderstand faith. For Christians it is confidence and trust in God's word/promise for salvation. Our proof/evidence is Jesus Christ. It is logical and very material. If not, no one would be on this board. Christianity wouldn't exist because everyone would know for certain that Jesus wasn't God's son. There's enough evidence to continue to spark interest and curiosity.

Well said NowAmFound.

CHEERS

Originally posted by NowAmFound
RedDragon: You misunderstand faith. For Christians it is confidence and trust in God's word/promise for salvation.

can't disagree with that summary of christian faith

Our proof/evidence is Jesus Christ.

oh, really?

It is logical and very material. If not, no one would be on this board. Christianity wouldn't exist because everyone would know for certain that Jesus wasn't God's son. There's enough evidence to continue to spark interest and curiosity.

so, you're saying that because people believe that jesus is god, it is true...
however, that argument applies to every single religion

NaF, you need to realize that there is nothing material about religion
even my most religious of friends will admit that one point
it deals with abstractions and faith
faith is based on the unknowable, which is immaterial

No, I am saying that enough historical documentation and evidence exists to corroborate the gospels and to validate their accounts of Jesus--enough information to back those who believe and enough information to cause those who don't to wonder and be curious.

Madness, I don't really care about religion. I am talking about Christ. You need to realize that there is enough evidence to make Him the most written about and most controversial individual in all of history. That is material.

Originally posted by NowAmFound
No, I am saying that enough historical documentation and evidence exists to corroborate the gospels and to validate their accounts of Jesus--enough information to back those who believe and enough information to cause those who don't to wonder and be curious.

Madness, I don't really care about religion. I am talking about Christ. You need to realize that there is enough evidence to make Him the most written about and most controversial individual in all of history. That is material.

most of that writing was done several hundred years after his death...
there isn't enough evidence to coroborate the accounts of "jesus" between the gospels
even his last words are different

1) Christian faith must be based on Hebrews ; NOW faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.
2) Based upon that the world was indeed framed by the laws of faith.

Even in a non christian realm, in order to create or design anything, you must see it in your mind, vision FIRST, then a blueprint, then the materials to build. So even in a non christian world, faith indeed exists. I believe God created faith as a universal law.

Originally posted by LadyPropag8r
Even in a non christian realm, in order to create or design anything, you must see it in your mind, vision FIRST, then a blueprint, then the materials to build. So even in a non christian world, faith indeed exists. I believe God created faith as a universal law.

how is a 10 year old imagining a lego spaceship before s/he builds it faith?

i don't understand how, as i think out this post before i write it, i'm excersising some sort of faith
am i having faith that my fingers won't fall off as i'm typing?
or that my computer won't freeze?

Originally posted by RedDragon
Faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

Not at all! Faith can be based on research, evidence, and logic, and should be. Every day you demonstrate faith based on experience. You wake up and step out of bed fully faithful that the floor is going to hold you up, even though there's a very minute chance that all the atoms in your feet could line up with those of the floor and you could fall in. You demonstrate faith when you tell someone you'll talk to them tomorrow. You believe, based on past experience, that you'll be around tomorrow, but there is no guarantee.

As for me, personally, I have a lot of faith, but that wasn't always the case. It was through years of testing the Bible, what was written, and delving into educated criticisms of Christianity and finding the answers to them that, after never finding a time where scripture was lacking, that I came to the point where now the Bible gets the benefit of the doubt in my mind.

Take a more mundane example. Let's pretend I'm blind, and I have a friend. I ask this friend what color hair every person I ever meet has, and they tell me. For the first 5 years, I then ask the person what color their hair is. Every time, for 5 years, the accounts match. Would it be insane for me to, after that 5 years, trust my friend when he tells me someone's hair color?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by LadyPropag8r
Even in a non christian realm, in order to create or design anything, you must see it in your mind, vision FIRST, then a blueprint, then the materials to build. So even in a non christian world, faith indeed exists. I believe God created faith as a universal law.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
how is a 10 year old imagining a lego spaceship before s/he builds it faith?

In his/her thought process; they think of next color or random select, it still starts with the mind first; even for the event to play with Lego's to begin with, then decides what to build or random build is still a thought process to create.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i don't understand how, as i think out this post before i write it, i'm excersising some sort of faith
am i having faith that my fingers won't fall off as i'm typing?
or that my computer won't freeze?

In your mind first you decided to turn on the PC and then made a choice to begin typing. Whether or not if the process is automated or non automated it still all begins in the mind, thought process. Sorry I was not more specified on prior post. Quite simple, if I first decide to go to the store, I will think it in the mind FIRST; then get the keys and probably HEAVY coat LOL in SNOW-hio Ohio, (blueprint or prep) and then get in car and drive. Even in a most urgent situation there is a decision in the mind somewhere first. Recall the post was "now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

[edit on 2-2-2007 by LadyPropag8r]

[edit on 2-2-2007 by LadyPropag8r]

LadyPropag8r, you're equating thought to faith

and JJ, here's something from the Moving Past Religion 101 thread

Faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

faith does in fact rest on nothing but speculative belief
there is no evidence to support your faith
you cannot find evidence for the existence of a soul
or an afterlife

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
LadyPropag8r, you're equating thought to faith

and JJ, here's something from the Moving Past Religion 101 thread

Faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

faith does in fact rest on nothing but speculative belief
there is no evidence to support your faith
you cannot find evidence for the existence of a soul
or an afterlife

Once again in 'christian' faith is to be based upon what Bible says about faith, Hebrews 11;1 'Now faith is, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen' Goes on to further declare the worlds framing by God's spoken word to bring into existance which first started in the mind or thought process, then spoken into existance, in my belief, 'thought process is an action of faith'. It is always thought of first before coming into existance. Faith to me is always unseen first before existing. Otherwise it wouldn't be faith.

As far as the existing of a soul, for me it doesn't make sense that if we look at each others physical hearts and brains etc, inner parts we all pretty well look alot alike inside. So this glob of muscle and the complexity of the brain is what commands us to love, hate, feel, fuel our emotional center? To me the eyes are the port hole in which our spirit looks out from within. It for me would take more faith not to believe that we are part soul or spirit as well as flesh than to believe we don't have a soul. For me it makes more sense that there are still so many phenomenons about us that cannot be explained by man, for me cries out that we are a creation which must mean there IS a creator. Just my take on how I believe.

RedDragon, would you have disputed the meanings of the words "material" and "evidence" when they came into being? Do you dispute everything?

The last thing you want to do is to dispute the existence of God, who is and will always remain the highest level of truth. I say this from experience with Divinity.

Originally posted by GreatTech

The last thing you want to do is to dispute the existence of God, who is and will always remain the highest level of truth. I say this from experience with Divinity.

From discussions with theists, I have found that the ultimate evidence that they can claim to assert that they have more than just faith to believe in their religion by is what you just said: spiritual experiences.

I'm about to start a new thread which I'll link to here in an edit that will explain why spiritual experiences are in fact not spirtitual at all and instead are purely physical firings of neurons and reactions of chemicals that create an illusion in the experiencer's mind.

It will also explain why some people are predisposed to these experiences and why it may be extremely difficult or even literally impossible for people like myself to experience these.

EDIT: Here's the link: www.belowtopsecret.com...

[edit on 2/16/07 by RedDragon]

[edit on 2/16/07 by RedDragon]

[edit on 2/16/07 by RedDragon]

Originally posted by GreatTech
The last thing you want to do is to dispute the existence of God, who is and will always remain the highest level of truth. I say this from experience with Divinity.

really?

dispute the existence of a being whose existence cannot be proven?
sounds logical to me

that's something you don't want to do?

should i just check my brain at the door of the church?