To Spank Or Not To Spank

Exunctly.

As I said, if I do feel the rage come, as any normal person will have from time to time, she will just be shut in her room. I think she regards this now as the ultimate punishment, as opposed to a spank.

works well for me. When compared to her cousin, who I must admit, has possibly the worst mother I know (my elder sister), Alannah is an Angel! Her cousin is allowed to do as she pleases, is only 2 years old and the worst my sister will punish her with is "Carmen, please don't do that..."

Please?!!

Please?!!

You never say please when chastising a child. You must remain firm, keep it simple so no confusion can arrise and they know they did wrong.

Asking them nicely to stop bashing another kids head in with a toy train is not going to work.......

I know being there two times.

But you know whatever works for a parent to discipline their child and the struggles to be a good parent is pay one hundred times when you see them into adulthood as responsible adults.

It is worth it.

But children needs a strong firm hand to guide them.

And a smack in the butt once in while.

I agree with any law that dictates against child ABUSE. Smacking a teenager on the face for unacceptable speech (screaming at a parent) or smacking a child on the bottom and sending them to bed when time-out didn't work is not ABUSE.

The government should spend more time changing the laws on pedophilia than worrying about parents who are trying their hardest to raise respectful, decent human beings.

Does anyone see the problem in the manner in which the proposal would deal with those guilty of spanking?

Seems the punishment, which is to deter further occurrences, would only create an environment where the child would run a higher risk.

Education is the key here.

Originally posted by marg6043
Striking is abuse.

A smack in the butt is discipline and a way to call attention.

Don't get confuse now.

I fail to see the difference. Striking is abuse, yes I agree. A smack in the butt, this is not striking? Whether it is a little slap, or a closed fist, both are acts of physical violence towards the child.

No apples and oranges here, they are one in the same.

There are countless strategies parents can take which are much more efficient than striking a child.

I'm more than willing to debate the issue with anyone who says physical abuse is a more appropriate technique.

Originally posted by chissler
Does anyone see the problem in the manner in which the proposal would deal with those guilty of spanking?

Seems the punishment, which is to deter further occurrences, would only create an environment where the child would run a higher risk.

Education is the key here.

Sure, its twofold.
1. a parent is now missing from the household, doing jail time, for teaching a child how to behave in a civilized manner.

2. A child learns to manipulate a parent. "I can get away with whatever I want, because the cops are watching you mom".

Maybe, instead of jail time, the parent should be spanked.


[edit on 22-1-2007 by spacedoubt]

Originally posted by chissler

There are countless strategies parents can take which are much more efficient than striking a child.

I'm more than willing to debate the issue with anyone who says physical abuse is a more appropriate technique.

I am interested in your take on this.

And a spank on the arse is not the same as punching them, no matter how you spin it. What exaclty would you propose if you have a child in a situation where reasoning does not work.

As I stated above, reasoning and light punishments are my norm, but if the child pushes the boundaries and figures out that you have nothing else to use but a "don't do that" and sitting in the corner, then what do you do?

If you have the normal punishments, but the child knows that if the behaviour does not improve, that the punishment get's worse, the lesser punishment nearly always works.

If they push and realise that you are in fact a paper tiger, you have lost. What else have you got to offer apart from "timeout".

Once they realise they can get away with a light telling off and staring at the wall for 5 mins, how does that alter they're behaviour? If anything, that will breed worse behaviour. They realise you have nothing else to use and will misbehave constantly, knowing full well you will not do anything more than say "naughty Tommy, go and sit in the corner".

Kids are smart, you have to be smarter and willing to up the ante. As I stated, my daughter knows full well what will happen if she tries to up the tempo, so she doesn't. The threat of force is more effective than the actual use of force.

I would have though you US types would know that

Or maybe instead of spanking in the first place, the parent spends some one-on-one time with the child and see what he/she really likes. If the child misbehaves, remove those "extras" from their life. Television, internet, telephone, friends, etc., are all things that can be temporarily removed from a child in order to garner some positive behaviour. A child will do what they have to do to get what they want. Consistency is tough, but it is essential.

Under 4 - parents are GODS.
Under the age of 4, there is no reasoning with them. You can explain, but chances are they will not understand. Not because the kid is retarded, but because they're still developing.

I was spanked as a child. Twice. After that, my father just gave me 'the look' and that was it. I knew when I did wrong.

When I began gathering my wits, when I was beginning to understand the world and learning how to act in the world, he explained proper behavior to me.
Didn't have to beat common sense into me.
But he did have to get my attention... draw a line, so to speak.

There is a barrier between parent and child. It acts as the ultimate form of trust. As long as that barrier exists, a child will have an endless amount of trust for you as a parent. Breaking this barrier, which is what happens through hitting the child, the trust is broken. You have taught the child that it is OK to hit, and that it is an appropriate way to deal with your anger.

I disagree, to a degree.
If my father had been red in the face and taken a telephone cord to me, emphasizing every single word with every single whap -- the bond of trust is broken.
That is abuse.
Holding an infant up by the arm - that is abuse.

A smack on the butt to get their attention (quite akin to smacking a dog's nose) is not.


Okay, here's my problem with the 'I won't smack my kids' theory in practice:
A kid wants a toy. Mom says no. Kid gets angry and begins running around the store. 'Come back here, come back here, please, stop, come back, please, come here, stop...' has absolutely no results. Now, other customers have to stop what they're doing and pay attention to the kid who refuses to listen to Mom so that they don't get hit by the kid's running. Meanwhile, me (the cashier) has a headache because of the kid's screaming, _and_ I hafta hold up the line while she chases her kid because she refuses to give 'em a quick smack on the butt.

This is, quite literally, theory run amuk.

I can't stand that.

I'm not an advocate for child abuse.
I am an advocate for teaching a child proper behavior.
But before the age of 4, you must teach them that you are in charge. (I keep thinking of the dog whisperer: Don't be aggressive. Just dominate.)
Otherwise, _why_ are they going to listen to you when you have absolutely no authority over them -- and they know it?!

spacedoubt wrote:

Children.

Spank em if you got em.

A swat in the rear..nothing more.
No beatings, nothing done in a fit of rage.

It's just a spanking.
Not a thing wrong with it. I recieved a few as a kid..I remember most of them, and even why it was done.

If only retro-active spanking was available. Some adults could use a swat from the past.

I wholeheartedly agree with spacedoubt. A spanking does not have to be abusive to be effective. For some children, one spanking is all it takes. Others need them on a regular basis until their behavior is corrected. This is done out of love for the child. If 'timeout' or taking privelages away works, then that's great. If not, a spanking might very well get the desired result. A parent who doesn't use all means necessary to instill discipline is doing their children, and society in general, a grave injustice.

Originally posted by chissler


No apples and oranges here, they are one in the same.

There are countless strategies parents can take which are much more efficient than striking a child.

I do not use any form of striking I use pressure points. It works, it doesnt really hurt them and since I explain why I did it they learn from the experiance.

There is no "American" about this. Pure Canadian my friend.

What of the child that is faced with physical punishment and still does not care? We assume that the child is actually afraid of the physical beat down the parent is about to lay on them. What if they are not?

Now if you make a stride and attempt to reinforce this positive behaviour with no success, then you rework the program and try again. If it is not working, it is because the variables are not effective. Remove something that the child needs. Do not threaten anything. Empty threats are completely useless and only undermine the parent.

It's like the small child in the candy store. "I want, I want, I want!" Maybe before entering the store, you could of warned the child of the behaviour you expect, and if they abide by it, they will receive a small reward for it. Your not punishing their bad behaviour, you are attempting to reinforce a positive behaviour. If they fail to abide by this code, they do not get the reward and you instill the proper punishment.

The process itself is very simple. The problem is actually sticking to it and not letting up. Slipping up once will leave every effort a complete waste. A child needs to know that the parent is in charge. Sadly, we feel that physical punishment is the only way a parent can show their dominance.

Originally posted by chissler
There is no "American" about this. Pure Canadian my friend.

What of the child that is faced with physical punishment and still does not care? We assume that the child is actually afraid of the physical beat down the parent is about to lay on them. What if they are not?

Now if you make a stride and attempt to reinforce this positive behaviour with no success, then you rework the program and try again. If it is not working, it is because the variables are not effective. Remove something that the child needs. Do not threaten anything. Empty threats are completely useless and only undermine the parent.

It's like the small child in the candy store. "I want, I want, I want!" Maybe before entering the store, you could of warned the child of the behaviour you expect, and if they abide by it, they will receive a small reward for it. Your not punishing their bad behaviour, you are attempting to reinforce a positive behaviour. If they fail to abide by this code, they do not get the reward and you instill the proper punishment.

The process itself is very simple. The problem is actually sticking to it and not letting up. Slipping up once will leave every effort a complete waste. A child needs to know that the parent is in charge. Sadly, we feel that physical punishment is the only way a parent can show their dominance.

chissler this is a serious question but do you have kids?

Originally posted by JamesMcMahn
chissler this is a serious question but do you have kids?

Is it relevant?

Are you asking if I have first hand experience with the frustrations that come from experience? Maybe I have these strong opinions but have no experience to substantiate my beliefs?

I work with kids who have behaviour problems and are in conflict with the law. I am responsible for them and I attempt to turn our "deviant youth" into "productive youth". Do I take these children home with me? No, but sometimes I wish I could.

I may not have any children of my own, but I have dedicated my life to assisting those who've grown up in a home where Daddy thought it was appropriate to "smack 'em around".

Originally posted by chissler

Originally posted by JamesMcMahn
chissler this is a serious question but do you have kids?

Is it relevant?

Are you asking if I have first hand experience with the frustrations that come from experience? Maybe I have these strong opinions but have no experience to substantiate my beliefs?

I work with kids who have behaviour problems and are in conflict with the law. I am responsible for them and I attempt to turn our "deviant youth" into "productive youth". Do I take these children home with me? No, but sometimes I wish I could.

I may not have any children of my own, but I have dedicated my life to assisting those who've grown up in a home where Daddy thought it was appropriate to "smack 'em around".

Yes the problem was that the parents hit them to hard, or the parents never explained why they used physical punishment.

Originally posted by chissler
Or maybe instead of spanking in the first place, the parent spends some one-on-one time with the child and see what he/she really likes. If the child misbehaves, remove those "extras" from their life. Television, internet, telephone, friends, etc., are all things that can be temporarily removed from a child in order to garner some positive behaviour. A child will do what they have to do to get what they want. Consistency is tough, but it is essential.

Ahh, now it comes to him telling me how to raise my kid without even knowing me! Haha, expected, I suppose.

I actually spend 4 solid days with my daughter out of 8. I do not live with her mother and I work shifts, but I actually see her and spend more time with her than her mother does.

She is a Daddies girl, to the point where her mother will ring me for advice on how to deal with her. I know her well, I now what she likes and dislikes. However, there has to be a line in the sane that they know not to cross.

As I said, you can reason till your blue in the face, but if the child knows this is all your going to do, then, pray tell, what exactly else have you got in your arsenal to isntill behaviour?

Paper tiger, my friend.

However, if they know that if they continue to escalate, the punishment will get worse, this instills in them a sense of behaviour and a dislike of pushing the ante.

As stated, I now find the threat of force, after other attempts have failed, is usually sufficient to stop Alannah doing anything I do not wish her to do.

As a result, she is 75% very well behaved.

In contrast, her cousin, who's mother (apart from being a Benefist scrounger....) uses the tactics you elicit, is possibly the worst behaved child I have seen in a long time, as she is fully aware that no serious punishment is ever coming her way.

Originally posted by chissler
It's like the small child in the candy store. "I want, I want, I want!" Maybe before entering the store, you could of warned the child of the behaviour you expect, and if they abide by it, they will receive a small reward for it. Your not punishing their bad behaviour, you are attempting to reinforce a positive behaviour. If they fail to abide by this code, they do not get the reward and you instill the proper punishment.

I'm honestly intrigued.

What is, in this particular example, your thoughts on 'proper punishment'?

Go home and sit in the corner or their room for some amount of time?
No more going to the candy store?


I've yet to see an example of a small child acting properly under the 'no spankings' idea. Not to say that they don't exist -- but I've seen a lot of little kids, and none of them knew how to act... and neither did the parent(s) for that matter.


Editted to add: The OP was about children ages 4 and under. Are the kids you work with of the same age?

[edit on 22-1-2007 by Diseria]

Originally posted by chissler

It's like the small child in the candy store. "I want, I want, I want!" Maybe before entering the store, you could of warned the child of the behaviour you expect, and if they abide by it, they will receive a small reward for it. Your not punishing their bad behaviour, you are attempting to reinforce a positive behaviour. If they fail to abide by this code, they do not get the reward and you instill the proper punishment.

Nice example. Let me rip it apart for you....

I had this exact situation the other day. Alannah asked for sweets on the way to the shop. I agreed on condition she was a good girl.

Was she?

No.. She didn't want to walk the 200m to the shop, insisting I carry her. Cried all the way. She walked though

Got to the shop and I told her she wasn't having any. Did she understand? Maybe, but she still threw a fit. She tried to pick up some sweets, I told her to put them down. She carried on with the tantrum.

I got stern with her and warned her if she did not stop, then she would have a smacked bum. That, unfortunately, still did not work and she was throwing a proper hissy fit in the middle of the shop.

So I smacked her arse as promised.

She stopped crying (after some snivelling) and walked home. She even apologised for being naughty when we got back and gave me a hug.

Job's a good'un. She knew she did wrong. She even remembers it a week later and she knows she was naughty.

But you propose I should have just stopped at the reasoning?

How would this have helped? She was on the floor, blue in the face, screaming the roof down! What do you do then? Leave them? Ask them nicely to get up?

All a tantrum is, is a way for the child to escalate their side of the argument in order to get what they want. If you can demonstrate a bigger willingness to escalate and hold your line, then the child knows how far the boundaries go and learns from it. If all you have is words and no action, then you have lost the battle before it has begun.

May I suggest you actually have kids before lecturing others on how to bring up theirs? It's all very well "working with problem kids" (I have done the same when I was younger), but that is not the same as dealing with your own from the age of 0-18, every day of their lives, is it?

I was physically disciplined a couple of times. It stopped the problem behavior, and I don't think it warped me permanently or anything like that. My father never hit me, and we don't get along at all, whereas my mother used physical discipline a couple of times, and I have a very good relationship with her, now that I'm all grown up.

Not to say the discipline had everything or anything to do with it, just pointing out that if physical discipline ruined relationships, I wouldn't have one with my mom (and I do).

It's not hard to see the difference between abuse and punishment. Punishment is purposeful, restrained, and never done in anger. Abuse is the opposite in every way.

I don't think spanking should be against the law, because it's not abuse.

The parents that we have to worry about are the ones like these...

Baby in the Oven

Punching Baby

I don't think we should be worrying about parents who spank their kids once in a while, there are enough real criminals out there to occupy our attention.

I caused my kids to cry for an hour and be exceptionally sorry and all I did was throw toys in the bin......plastic #e from macdonalds (broken) and pens that had dried up. Needless to say the supply of plastic #e from Macdonalds and dried up pens is never ending ;-) After doing this a couple of times I could even threaten to do it and bad behaviour ceased immediately.