Paganism and Masonry

All authentic Religions: The Magi, the original Knights-Templar, Sufis/Sophees, the original Assassins, Alchemy, Theo-sophy, Platonists, FreeMasons, Rosicrucians, etc. all come from the Ancient Catholic Gnosis which is Christic-Buddhism, or Divine Wisdom:

Kristos (or Krestos): (Greek) Literally, Christ. Esoterically, fire. Christ is fire.

The Adorable God Kristos (Christ) comes from archaic cults to the Fire-God. The letters P (Pyre) and X (Cross) are the hieroglyph which represent the generation of the Sacred Fire.
Christ was worshipped in the mysteries of Mithra, Apollo, Aphrodite, Jupiter, Janus, Vesta, Bacchus, Astarte, Demeter, Quetzalcoatl, etc.
The Christic principle has never been absent from any religion. All religions are one. Religion is as inherent to life as humidity is to water. The Great Cosmic Universal Religion becomes modified into thousands of religious forms. Thus, the priests from all religious forms are completely identifiable with one another through the fundamental principles of the Great Cosmic Universal Religion.
Therefore, a basic difference between the Mohammedan priest and the Jewish priest, or between the Pagan priest and the legitimate Christian one, does not exist. Religion is one. Religion is unique and absolutely universal. The ceremonies of the Shinto priest of Japan or of the Mongol Lamas are similar to those ceremonies of the shamans and sorcerers from Africa and Oceania.
When a religious form degenerates, it disappears; yet, the universal life creates new religious forms in order to replace it.


Authentic primeval Gnostic Christianity comes from Paganism.

Prior to Paganism, the Cosmic Christ was worshipped in all cults. In Egypt, Christ was Osiris and whosoever incarnated him was an Osirified one. In all ages there have been Masters who have assimilated the Infinite Universal Christic Principle. In Egypt, Hermes was the Christ. In Mexico, the Christ was Quetzalcoatl. In Sacred India, Krishna is Christ. In the Holy Land, the Great Gnostic Jesus, who was educated in the land of Egypt, was the one who had the bliss of assimilating the Universal Christic Principle, and because of this, he was worthy of being re-baptised with the Seity of Fire and of the Cross, Kristos.


The Nazarene, Jesus-Iesus-Zeus, is the modern man who totally incarnates the Universal Christic Principle. Prior to Jesus, many Masters incarnated this Christic principle of Fire. The Rabbi of Galilee is a God, because he totally incarnated the Cosmic Christ. Hermes, Quetzalcoatl, Krishna are Gods because they also incarnated the Cosmic Christ. It is necessary to worship the Gods; they help their devotees. "Ask, and it shall be given you... Knock, and it shall be opened unto you."

Sexual Magic is the art of producing Fire. We can produce Fire, develop it and incarnate the Christ only with the Perfect Matrimony. This is how we become Gods.

The Christic Principle is always the same. The Masters who incarnate it are living Buddhas. Among them there are always hierarchies.

The Buddha Jesus is the most exalted Initiate of the Universal White Fraternity.

See also the works of H.P. Blavatsky, Albert Churchward, Manly P. Hall, Godfrey Higgins, Hargrave Jennings, Eliphas Levi, Gerald Massey, Albert Pike and John Yarker.







Regards

Speakiing now exclusively about Wiccans: I think most of these people are simply too lazy to follow any other belief* They need something with few rules where they can basically make it up as they go along* Every Wiccan I have ever met (I have met many) has been dimwitted, airheaded, they quote Thelemas "DO what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" not knowing what they are saying: Wicca is a cliques for all those people who are not admitted to those other cliques*

Now people like Tamahu obviously study and read lots and are knowledgable of their beliefs, so if anyone says they are a "gnostic" or a "Sufi" or even into Celtic "druidism" or "Mithraism" or whatever, I would automatically think they would know more about what they speak of than someone who says they are just plain "Wiccan"

Many people want the easy way out:


Do whatever you want, without any discipline, and not have to reap what you sow.

What is Gnosis?

Black Magic appeals to the mass mind. It appeals to the principles of our civilization. It offers something for nothing. As long as there is cupidity in the human heart, it will remain as a menace to the honesty and integrity of our race. - Manly P. Hall from Magic: a Treatise on Esoteric Ethics

Such people as Manly P. Hall describes here, usually have some really goofy ideas about Karma, Chakras, "Sex Magick", etc.

Luckily, I have never known any Wiccans who actually believe that you can just do whatever you want.

The quote I hear most often is, "Harm it none, do what you will." It's the last line of the Wiccan Rede which is actually a fairly detailed list of Do's/Don'ts. The "Harm it none" part is the key. It means that if no one, no person, no animal, (not even the weather) will be affected, then you are permitted to procede with an action.

There is also the Rule of 3. The Rule of 3 means that whatever you do will come back to you 3 times. If you do harm someone, you can expect harm to come to you 3 times as bad.

All this says to me that there are penalties to be paid and that it isn't about just doing what ever you want to with no concern as to the consequences. Maybe the Wiccans I know are just unique or something.

One thing that I am confused about though: Can Tamahu or CGL help me understand how the information posted might prove there is, or is not, a link between Masons and Paganism?

I can see what Tamahu is saying about the historical origins of the religions mentioned, but what about modern day? Are "common ancestors" (for lack of a better term) really proof of a meaningful modern-day similarity? Aren't the goals of these two groups radically different these days?

Edited for clarity


[edit on 1/22/07 by wellwhatnow]

Greetings wellwhatnow

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
One thing that I am confused about though: Can Tamahu or CGL help me understand how the information posted might prove there is, or is not, a link between Masons and Paganism?

What would you do if someone were able to offer definitive proof or irrefutable evidence?



FreeMasonry teaches in a veiled form, depending on the Degree, Rite, or Lodge, elements of Paganism, Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Khemetian teachings, teachings of the Magi, Alchemy, Knights-Templar, Rosicrucians, Kabbalah, etc.

This is no secret.

And it accepts members of all Religions.


If you seek "proof", then see the books I've mentioned in the post at the top of this page.

Maybe join a Lodge yourself.


Or verify for yourself directly, through the practices of Yoga-Tantra given in the Gnosticteachings.org free online-courses.

Because really, only your Inner-God, the Voice of the Silence, can unveil to you if there is any real fundamental difference between "Pagan" and "Christian" teachings.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I can see what Tamahu is saying about the historical origins of the religions mentioned, but what about modern day? Are "common ancestors" (for lack of a better term) really proof of a meaningful modern-day similarity? Aren't the goals of these two groups radically different these days?

Ecclesiastes: 1:9

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Christ is the Spiritual-Sun, the Son who is the Cause of the physical Sun.

Kristos (or Krestos): (Greek) Literally, Christ. Esoterically, fire. Christ is fire.

...Therefore, a basic difference between the Mohammedan priest and the Jewish priest, or between the Pagan priest and the legitimate Christian one, does not exist. Religion is one. Religion is unique and absolutely universal. The ceremonies of the Shinto priest of Japan or of the Mongol Lamas are similar to those ceremonies of the shamans and sorcerers from Africa and Oceania.

When a religious form degenerates, it disappears; yet, the universal life creates new religious forms in order to replace it....

Regards

Also, if Wiccans were to make a serious study of Buddhism, they would see that our subtle inner-afflictions, are not detectable to the so-called waking-mind.


So we are almost constantly creating harm without even realizing it.


This is why the Path of the Razor's Edge is so trying.

Originally posted by Tamahu
What would you do if someone were able to offer definitive proof or irrefutable evidence?

Nothing. I was only trying to make sure we were staying on topic and not turning the thread into a bashing of either side.


I personally would love to join a lodge, but they don't let women play.

Originally posted by Tamahu
Because really, only your Inner-God, the Voice of the Silence, can unveil to you if there is any real fundamental difference between "Pagan" and "Christian" teachings.

I do see such a difference in Paganism and Christianity that I would say that in many ways they are opposites. Regardless of their origins, the teachings used today by each are radically opposed.

However, the OP began a discussion by basically stating that there were differences in Pagans and Masons. I have agreed with that and am now just looking at the opinions of others to see what other ways there are to see this issue.

[edit on 1/22/07 by wellwhatnow]

Originally posted by Tamahu
Also, if Wiccans were to make a serious study of Buddhism, they would see that our subtle inner-afflictions, are not detectable to the so-called waking-mind.


So we are almost constantly creating harm without even realizing it.


This is why the Path of the Razor's Edge is so trying.

Actually, Wiccans do know this. That is why they do trancework, meditation, altered states of consciousness and Shadow work. We are well aware that alot of negative magick comes from unconscious thinking. There is a great responsiblity one takes on when entering the magickal spiritual path and that is well-known. That responsiblity lies in making sure one is not doing negative magick when one doesn't intend to.

As for your references, it's from a guy who is a writer that apparently channels his information. I do have to say that I don't find this method very reliable. Also, in simple Paganism, there is no dogma and there don't even have to be deities, and therefore no "Christ principle" but it is still a religion. Nor do I believe religion is endemic to humankind, but I do believe that spirituality is. Religion to me, is an organized church, something which is usually anathema to an independent thinker.
I'm not trying to insult you, Tamahu, but I don't think you really know much about Paganism and witchcraft. You seem to get alot of ideas from the website you quoted, all written by a guy who "channels" information from the White Brotherhood and he talks about Lemuria, which has hardly been historically established as a real place. He talks about "before Paganism" and then cites Egyptian religion. Paganism was the first religion of humankind, ever since they saw the sun come up the first time and stood in awe of it.
Also, he says that Gnosticism came from Paganism. But it seems you aren't impressed by Paganism, do I have that right? I'm confused by that.

No offense, but this all smacks of New Age fluff to me.

Most Buddhists seem to know how the world works, I find and the New Age caused great fear among people of power because of their meditation in the 50s/60s.

Originally posted by adc
and Masons are all for control?

Where do you get that idea from?

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
Nothing. I was only trying to make sure we were staying on topic and not turning the thread into a bashing of either side.

Well, it was more of a rhetorical question.

I personally would love to join a lodge, but they don't let women play.

Well the Gnostic Lumisials(which are similar to the Co-Masonry of Cagliostro) certainly let women "play":

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I do see such a difference in Paganism and Christianity that I would say that in many ways they are opposites. Regardless of their origins, the teachings used today by each are radically opposed.

However, the OP began a discussion by basically stating that there were differences in Pagans and Masons. I have agreed with that and am now just looking at the opinions of others to see what other ways there are to see this issue.

What I was pointing out, is that there is essentially no difference between Christianity and Buddhism, no difference between Christianity and Shetaut Neter, or between Christianity and the Religion of the Magi, etc.

Esoterically that is.


The very first Christians were the Gnostics.

And the Gnostics and Sufis were both known as Sophees.


Etc., etc., etc.,

Originally posted by forestlady
Actually, Wiccans do know this. That is why they do trancework, meditation, altered states of consciousness and Shadow work.

The Dugpas or Drukpas know it too.

But that sure doesn't stop them from working Black Magic.


Really, IMO, I would not trust the system of Gerald Gardner, if that's what you mean by Wicca.

But that's up to you of course.

As for your references, it's from a guy who is a writer that apparently channels his information. I do have to say that I don't find this method very reliable.

Huh?

Where did you get that idea?

Samael Aun Weor, like the Lady Adept H.P. Blavatsky, is emphatically opposed to channelling.


It is the pseudo-Occult "New Age" groups and some Nazis who are responsible for all that channelling nonsense:

Master Samael clearly stated, over and over that mediumism and spiritualISM are black magic.

That is why we do not study, relate to or propagate the teachings of the that lady related with violet flames or any other channeler.

All of the channels of the Gnostic initiate are utilised by the fire of Devi Kundalini. The winds and channels of the physical, vital, astral, mental or causal vehicles should never be corrupted by the presence of anything other than the Being and It's many parts.

Therefore, the teachings, seminars, books, websites etc of mediums are corrupted by the very spirits that are taking over the physical vessels of the mediums.

The count St Germain does not need a medium or a channeler because he is a great resurrected master!

He has a physical body, perfectly preserved by the techniques of Jinn science (not to mention resurrection).

Those who claim to channel Master Morya, St Germain, Cagliostro, Abraham etc are in contact with earthbound spirits, klippothic dwellers and demons that lie and use the physical bodies of ignorant humanoids. These spirits use the lips of the ignorant, passive ones in order mix great truth with lies and more lies.

Do you think that sly demons wouldn't possess someone and speak with sweet words containing subtle messages? Do you think that all possession looks like the movies? Possession and obsession are always negative, destructive and a blasphemy.

That is why the teachings of the mediums are dangerous and poisonous. That was taught by the Master Samael, that is why it is taught here.

Also, in simple Paganism, there is no dogma and there don't even have to be deities, and therefore no "Christ principle" but it is still a religion.

Esoterically all authentic Religions have the Christ principle.

In Buddhism for example, there is no anthropomorphic-creator, of course.

However, the Occult Buddhist teachings of the Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya, if we look at their attributes, are the same as the Kabbalistic Kether, Chokmah, and Binah, from where Christianity gets it's Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

So H.H. the Dalai Lama, being an incarnation of the the Sambhogakaya Chenrezig/Avalokitesvara, can also be said to be an incarnation of the "Son of God", as is Krishna, Jesus, Quetzalcoatl, Tehuti/Hermes, etc.

The Kabbalah(Tree of Life) and Daath(Alchemy) are in all of these.


Any Religion without the teachings of the Tree of Life is, well, I'll let each decide on their own...

Nor do I believe religion is endemic to humankind, but I do believe that spirituality is. Religion to me, is an organized church, something which is usually anathema to an independent thinker.

See this:

Seeking the Master: Teachers and Students



But Guru-Yoga with a physical Master is good too, if you can find the right Master in the physical plane(which is difficult in this Kali-Yuga).

There are quite a few Tibetan Masters from authentic lineages teaching in the West now.

I'm not trying to insult you, Tamahu, but I don't think you really know much about Paganism and witchcraft. You seem to get alot of ideas from the website you quoted, all written by a guy who "channels" information from the White Brotherhood and he talks about Lemuria, which has hardly been historically established as a real place.

The Great White Brotherhood, Lemuria, and Atlantis come from authentic Occultism; not from "New Age" mediums such as Elizabeth-Claire Prophet.

The "New Age" kalkian personalities have sabotaged the authentic Gnostic and Theo-Sophi-cal teachings by adding their channelling nonsense and popularizing it.

I don't care about witchcraft and mediumism because they are Black Magic.

Real Adepts like Samael Aun Weor, Thomas Taylor, Eliphas Levi, H.P. Blavatsky, and Manly P. Hall know this.

He talks about "before Paganism" and then cites Egyptian religion.

Where?

Paganism was the first religion of humankind, ever since they saw the sun come up the first time and stood in awe of it.

The first God-Men...

(the theory that the first men were monkeys or savages is erroneous)

...knew that the Krist is the Spiritual Sun, who is the cause of the physical Sun.

(see the Heru excerpt from the aasorlando link in my sig).



So the first Religion was Christic-Paganism.

Also, he says that Gnosticism came from Paganism. But it seems you aren't impressed by Paganism, do I have that right? I'm confused by that.

As already explained, I'm not opposed to paganism(see again, the excerpt about Christ at the top of this page).

Yehoshua of Nazareth studied the Occult Science of Khemet, the Essenes, Tibet, etc. and is how he obtained the Gnosis in order to Incarnate the Christ.

No offense, but this all smacks of New Age fluff to me.

Coming from a Wiccan?

Did you actually read that excerpt?


As H.P. Blavatsky said about the Buddhist Lam-Rim teachings(related to the Initiations of Minor Mysteries), the average person would turn and shudder, if they knew what they had to sacrifice in order to even enter the Path.

Ordinary "New Age" teachings are pretty much "do whatever you want".


The fact that one has to renounce the orgasm forever, in order to even begin the true Gnostic Path, strikes terror into pseudo-occultists, witches, fornicators, gays, black magicians and kalkian-personalities.






Regards




[edit on 23-1-2007 by Tamahu]

So, Tamahu, if I were to state your position in the simplest possible way, could it be boiled down to this?

"There is not much difference in Masonry and Paganism because of their similar historical roots."

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
So, Tamahu, if I were to state your position in the simplest possible way, could it be boiled down to this?

"There is not much difference in Masonry and Paganism because of their similar historical roots."

We could say that there is essentially no difference between Primitive(Gnostic)-Christianity, Primitive Masonry, and Paganism.


The designation of what is "Pagan" and what is not, is kind of absurd to me anyway.


All Religions are based on the Mono-Pantheistic Kabbalah.

Meaning: One God expressing as different Creative-faculties that are in the Microcosm and Macrocosm.


Monotheism without Pantheism, leads to either fanaticism or atheism.

And Polytheism without the view of Oneness(Tauhid or Tawhid) leads to idolatry.


How can a "Christian" call another individual's Religion "Pagan", when Christianity shares the same principles as most other Religions?

Whether we want to call it Pagan or not, Christianity and the other Religions I've mentioned, all come from the same Occult(Amen or Hidden) Source.



See these:


Salvation


The Universal Saviour and the Gnostic Jesus


Gnostic Nativity of Christ

Mysteries of Halloween

Gnosis of Easter







Regards




[edit on 23-1-2007 by Tamahu]

Tamihu, in answer to your questions/statements:

1 - I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say "channeling" - isn't he claiming that he gets his information from Ascended Masters, i.e. the White Brotherhood or some such?

2 - "Authentic primeval Gnostic Christianity comes from Paganism. Prior to Paganism, the Cosmic Christ was worshipped in all cults. In Egypt, Christ was Osiris and whosoever incarnated him was an Osirified one."
You asked where it talked about religion before Paganism. See above.

3 - Wiccans do NOT practice black magick, that's a huge no-no.

OK, so what you're saying is that Paganism/Witchcraft is not an authentic religion because it's not Christic. Then why did the Supreme Court declare Wicca to be a religion back in the late '80's?

Nor do Wiccans or any other tradition hold with anything New Age, you really don't know that much about the Craft, I gather. BTW, I'm not Wiccan, I have a different tradition. Also, Wicca is considered by many witches who are not Wiccan, to be the least serious of all of the disciplines of witchcraft.

OK, so what I've read here is that you think Pagans/Wiccans/witches practice Black Magick, and that someone else here thinks we are stupid silly air-heads and that my religion is not "authentic" (whatever that means.) I've tried to give some factual information about my reeligion, but if you choose not to believe me, well, that's up to you. I try to make a practice of not insulting other's religions, all I ask for is the same thing, but I really don't appreciate my religion being fabricated and insulted, and by extension me being insulted and classed into being an airhead when you don't even know me. If you choose to keep your mind closed to the facts about my religion, then you won't learn very much about it, as is evident. Now, I think my religion and myself have been insulted enough. I'm done with this thread.

Originally posted by forestlady
I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say "channeling" - isn't he claiming that he gets his information from Ascended Masters, i.e. the White Brotherhood or some such?

Channelling is mediumism, such as seance rooms and what-not.

Initiates of the White Lodge and Tantric Buddhism, etc. practice Dream Yoga, and speak to the Masters and Buddhas face to face in the Astral, Mental, Causal Planes and beyond.

This is very far from channelling.

2 - "Authentic primeval Gnostic Christianity comes from Paganism. Prior to Paganism, the Cosmic Christ was worshipped in all cults. In Egypt, Christ was Osiris and whosoever incarnated him was an Osirified one."
You asked where it talked about religion before Paganism. See above.

In this case, I'm not exactly sure what Samael Aun Weor means by Paganism.

But I do know that he does not equate Paganism with witchcraft.

Witchcraft is pagan, but not all Paganism is witchcraft.

3 - Wiccans do NOT practice black magick, that's a huge no-no.

I'm not sure if there's more than one kind of Wicca; but if you're referring to Gerald Gardner's system, it is indeed Black Magic.

His system is a profanation of Gnostic Golden Dawn rituals(and is actually an alteration of a profanation of Golden Dawn rituals to be exact) mixed with elements of witchcraft and degenerated-paganism(as opposed to Pure Paganism).

For an example of Pure Paganism, read Godfrey Higgin's book "Celtic Druids".

As for degenerate paganism, see the movie "Wicker Man" and the modern day "Burning Man" cult.

OK, so what you're saying is that Paganism/Witchcraft is not an authentic religion because it's not Christic. Then why did the Supreme Court declare Wicca to be a religion back in the late '80's?

As mentioned earlier, Paganism and witchcraft aren't always synonymous.


And the Supreme Court is ruled for the most part by vulgar profaners of the Temple, Black Magicians, learned ignoramuses and false-FreeMasons(as opposed to authentic Builders) who have no real idea of the meaning of Maat and Justice.

Though there were, and may still be a few repsectable Judges(the Supreme Court has enough sense, to have not taken down the bust of the Prophet Muhammad)

Nor do Wiccans or any other tradition hold with anything New Age, you really don't know that much about the Craft, I gather. BTW, I'm not Wiccan, I have a different tradition. Also, Wicca is considered by many witches who are not Wiccan, to be the least serious of all of the disciplines of witchcraft.

That's kind of what I mean.

That Wicca seems "New-Age"-ish; because all the Wiccans I've ever met seem flighty, flakey, and not much at all serious.

An actual Adept of the left-hand path, and maybe even a real witch, still have some degree of discipline and seriousness.

Even though Gerald Gardner was utilizing elements of Black Magic to create Wicca, I really doubt that he himself was an Adept, even if he was an actual Initiate of the left-hand.

OK, so what I've read here is that you think Pagans/Wiccans/witches practice Black Magick, and that someone else here thinks we are stupid silly air-heads and that my religion is not "authentic" (whatever that means.) I've tried to give some factual information about my reeligion, but if you choose not to believe me, well, that's up to you. I try to make a practice of not insulting other's religions, all I ask for is the same thing, but I really don't appreciate my religion being fabricated and insulted, and by extension me being insulted and classed into being an airhead when you don't even know me. If you choose to keep your mind closed to the facts about my religion, then you won't learn very much about it, as is evident. Now, I think my religion and myself have been insulted enough. I'm done with this thread.

I thought that you said that you aren't Wiccan?


I wasn't insulting Paganism(which again, is not necessarily witchcraft) as a whole either.


And I'm not trying to insult any Religion; I'm simply clearing up erroneous assumptions about Gnosticism, and what Paganism may or may-not mean.

As for Wicca, I'm simply warning others about it's pseudo-occult origins and suggesting that people look into it instead accepting those practices blindly.






Regards

Originally posted by Tamahu


Even though Gerald Gardner was utilizing elements of Black Magic to create Wicca, I really doubt that he himself was an Adept, even if he was an actual Initiate of the left-hand.

I'm curious as to why you think that Gardner was practicing "in black". From my study of Wicca, it seems nothing more than an extremely simplified and watered down version of Golden Dawnish ceremonial magic, with a few naked girls dancing in the woods thrown in for fun.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

I'm curious as to why you think that Gardner was practicing "in black".

Oh that one is easy..

he was friends with Crowley.

Well, I was the one insulting airheaded rainbow family love the Earth type Wiccans, and I said I was speaking EXCLUSIVELY of Wiccans, so Forestlady if you are not a Wiccan why are you so upset? Anyway insulting religious beliefs is what being human is all about, imo

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I'm curious as to why you think that Gardner was practicing "in black". From my study of Wicca, it seems nothing more than an extremely simplified and watered down version of Golden Dawnish ceremonial magic, with a few naked girls dancing in the woods thrown in for fun.

Right there, you admit that he adulterated the Golden Dawn rituals.


The rituals originally given by the Gnostic Church, adulterated with witchcraft!


"Fornicators use to perform their rituals nude, they are people of Black Magic!"



Really, for the sake of modesty, the only Sacred Ritual to be performed nude, is the Sahaja Maithuna or Arcanum A.Z.F between Wife and Husband, and Husband and Wife only.


Or maybe the Vajroli Mudra for bachelors, would be a nude solitary practice; but I'm not totally sure, as I have not all the details about it.





Regards