French headscarf ban recommended

Muslim girls in France could be barred from wearing headscarves in schools after an expert commission recommended a ban on "conspicuous" religious signs.
news.bbc.co.uk...

This is sounding a bit dangerous, i just screamed out my love for europe but this puts things in a different perspective. I know its not the only country where this point is being debated, even in more then liberal Holland people are talking about a ban although this is not accepted [the ban] in the netherlands, well not till now...
I would say, how would u feel in winter and u are wearing a woolhat and people say you are not allowed to wear this...

Muslim women wear headscarves for religious modesty if I recall correctly. How dare anyone, government or school or otherwise say that they can't wear one? I believe there needs to be a distinction made to make sure that people's religious rights are not stomped on.

The commission's recommendations would outlaw the Jewish kippa, large Christian crosses and the Islamic headscarf, which would be considered overt religious symbols.

"Muslims must understand that secularism is a chance for Islam," Mr Stasi told a news conference on Thursday.

"Secularism is the separation of church and state, but it is also the respect of differences."

The commission's proposed law was intended so people of all religions could "live together in public places", he said.

Where does this ignorant # get off saying this? A jew wearing a skullcap and a muslim wearing a headscarf interfere with someone else's life? I don't like the berets the french wear... should those be banned? Get a life moron. In NY where I live people of every religion are around and they wear whatever they want to. It must take an amazing lack of intellect to state that a muslim girl walking by wearing a head scarf offends another girl at school. That's who they are, that's what they wear. Is this "enlightened Europe"?

[Edited on 12-11-2003 by Djarums]

Good topic.

As I understand it the idea is to remove all outward religious symbols from schools.I thought this topic would come up because Jewish skull caps are also mentioned.

It is an interesting concept but I wonder if the same will apply to crosses and St Christophers in such a Catholic country.

A quick note to Djarums while I'm here.Sorry for coming down harsh on you yesterday.You responded like a true gentleman despite my beligerence.

In the artikel its says, quote: The commission's recommendations would outlaw the Jewish kippa, large Christian crosses and the Islamic headscarf, which would be considered overt religious symbols.

So then you can ask what is a large cross but it says cross, i dont know how catholic france is, johnbull. Its kind of strange that they want to forbid this. First schools and then, well good is that they do not only forbid the headscarf [musliims] and leave the christains alone..

France has a large Muslim population and these proposed measures are aimed at reducing racial/sectarian discrimation in schools.

I think we should all applaud the motives.

REMEMBER these are only proposals.They are not law.

I think these are reasonable proposals if they halt the rising trend of religious violence and discrimination around the world.

If Jewish and Muslim children can interact at school withouth the symbols of their creed then I think that that is a good thing

[Edited on 11-12-2003 by John bull 1]

While I do think that efforts to prevent the Muslim students from being discriminated against is a nice sentiment, telling them to give up their beliefs in the face of some discrimination is not such a good thing.

A lot of religions including judaism and islam have faced many long years of discrimination, and those who are religious have been through it before yet still insist on wearing the garment that is included in their belief.

I know that in the Spanish Inquisition jews were allowed to stay in Spain if they converted. So many refused because their beliefs were too strong. So yeah... the law may have good intentions of taking away differences between people, but it would be at the expense of their right to practice their religion wouldn't it? Some of these people are very proud.

Liberalism coming full circle?

JB, I disagree. These children, w/ out their scarfs, etc, are still Jews and Muslims. Here in the US, anyway, I think schools have gone too far. Common senes should prevail. When I was in HS I remember the friend I sat next to in what we called 'homeroom'. He was a Sikh. And wore their head dress. Did it bother me? hell no (unless I was sitting behind him, lol). But, I think there's a fine line between 'seperation of church and state' and discrimination. It's crazy that a public school teacher has been fired because she's wears a cross around her necklace. Or, kids get suspended because they would like to say a small prayer before they eat their school lunch, or Jews wanna wear a skull cap.

Granted, there are situations where I believe the a head scarf may have to be removed, like a photo ID perhaps, but I don't think having to remove an item that is part of ones identity is going to solve religious differences, whereas tolerance and education will. And how sad is it that a school can't see that.

[Edited on 11-12-2003 by Bob88]

How uttery idiotic.

"Discreet" medallions and pendants which merely confirm a person's religious faith would be allowed.

Bah, whos to say what discreet is? Personally I have never seen anyone with a such a huge cross that it isnt discreet.
This to me doesnt seem like secularism, as they are favoring one religion, christanity.
Also, though they may still be muslims, they would be prevented from following their own faith, which if you ask me is wrong.


[Edited on 12-11-2003 by PsionicGamer]

Well we have reaction from both sides, what if u for instance call the headscarf a piece of clothing ? Also then the school can call for a dresscode and not allow to wear anything on your head. I think also in schools it is not that bad but as long as all relegions are treated the same way [wich is hard offcourse]

Notice the angle of the reports on this one though?
They all lead on Muslim headscarves and then hide awa the fact that this applies to ALL religions.

The media is making it seem that Muslims are being singled out here, yet everybody is affected.

One thing the detractors should be aware of - this is not just Chirac's doing. The majority of the French population back the ban.

And to those of you who criticise, what do you have to say about the fact that in some Middle East countries it is still illegal to even practice any other religion other than Islam let alone wear any symbol related to your faith?
It seems that you advocate one rule for one society and another for those that actively discriminate against other religions in a far more negative way.

Just say a Sikh, who was a turban wearing sikh.
Phugs(turbans) are part of the initation to the khalsa(pure) sect of Sikhism, and are an absolute which can never be taken off, Would this law still imply?

I think that they are taking a step forward towards a secular way of life, but religion is something that can cause great upheavels in society.

Deep

as they say in the articel is guess it would also count for sikh..Its not only chirac indeed, theres a big fraction of the peoples who would like to see this, specially when it concerns muslims..not me that is..

So a woman in france wearing a low cut skirt, and a teeny weeny tank top is not offensive as a muslim girl wearing a hajab, or a head scarf and covered head to toe?

Deep

Its more about showing religion, not about showing naked bodyparts, although i rather see a muslimgirl dressed up then most of the naked stuff around ;]]

In that same proposal, there is a part that will prevent patients from refusing a doctor because of their sex. Of course this conflicts greatly with the culture of some muslims. But if it's a matter of life and death, will a muslim woman refuse to have a male doctor treat her? Even if at that moment there are no female doctors around???


Another thing. I think when you're an immigrant in a country, you should adapt yourself to that country for you to function properly in that country. There are muslims that live in certain countries in Europe that can't even speak the language of the country they live in. And they're living there so long that their teenage or adult children were born in that country. The Netherlands is such an example, where there are people who don't speak Dutch.

In Miami there are people who don't speak english (only Spanish), and in New York there are people who don't speak anything other than chinese. These are just some examples.

On my island of Aruba some of the latin american immigrants (legal or illegal) refuse to speak anything other than spanish with us natives of the island. I for one refuse to do so. They're in my country, so they must speak my language.

This is all about people adapting to the country they live in. In the The Netherlands the muslims wanted to be on the police force with their headscarves on. I mean come on, you are in The Netherlands, not the middle east, please adapt yourself to the country you live in.

Some just want segregation (from the natives), plain and simple.

[Edited on 18-12-2003 by TheBandit795]

And some also want to open strictly muslim schools akak segregation. In a country where the majority of the people are either atheists, catholics or protestant.

But a lot of muslims do adapt to the country though. I don't know what the ratio adapt/not adapt is though.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
In that same proposal, there is a part that will prevent patients from refusing a doctor because of their sex. Of course this conflicts greatly with the culture of some muslims. But if it's a matter of life and death, will a muslim woman refuse to have a male doctor treat her? Even if at that moment there are no female doctors around???


Another thing. I think when you're an immigrant in a country, you should adapt yourself to that country for you to function properly in that country. There are muslims that live in certain countries in Europe that can't even speak the language of the country they live in. And they're living there so long that their teenage or adult children were born in that country. The Netherlands is such an example, where there are people who don't speak Dutch.

In Miami there are people who don't speak english (only Spanish), and in New York there are people who don't speak anything other than chinese. These are just some examples.

On my island of Aruba some of the latin american immigrants (legal or illegal) refuse to speak anything other than spanish with us natives of the island. I for one refuse to do so. They're in my country, so they must speak my language.

This is all about people adapting to the country they live in. In the The Netherlands the muslims wanted to be on the police force with their headscarves on. I mean come on, you are in The Netherlands, not the middle east, please adapt yourself to the country you live in.

Thats a very good comment, yess they need to integrate i fully agree with that but it doesnt mean that you cant wear a head-scarf..you can also integrate wearing one..and be a good police officer wearing one :]]]] I think integration should not be coupled to believe..then its better for a country to say, we dont take up muslims, well its a hard questions, now that i say it i think about it and indeed a little adaption to the used standards must also be done, it has to come from both sides i guess..

It's best not to wear one as a police officer for obvious safety reasons. The same way they've banned visible piercings for police officers.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
It's best not to wear one as a police officer for obvious safety reasons. The same way they've banned visible piercings for police officers.

i dont wanna disagree with u but is the hat they wear now not as unsafe as a headscarf.......

[Edited on 18-12-2003 by jozuph]

The hats they used when I was there could fall off their heads easily. Head scarves can not.