Religion...........it blinds the world.

You talkin' to me? I coulda' swore you had me on ignore.

Originally posted by WiseSheep
You think you are free, but you know not freedom.

Sure, we can talk about the paradox of free will if you want, but it applies equally to you as it does to me.

You don't know the nature of the thing that has you bound. ...

You aren't offering any explanation. How do you hope to convince me or anyone else with this vapid nonsense?

If you would start looking into it you would see.

You mean this? I've seen enough. Why haven't you? Why do you continue in this pointless exercise, despite my warning?

You were led here as a test.

Actually I came here (to ATS) for a completely different and very specific reason and frankly feel sidetracked by these annoying Christians. I left beliefnet precisely because of this.

You are part of a conspiracy.

I was doing this long before it became popular.

Part of something bigger than yourself and you don't know it.

I like to think this is finally going somewhere.

What I'm telling you sounds like insanity to you.

No, because I used to think exactly as you do.

If you ever see, it is very real.

The problem with you is that you've lost touch with what is real.

What you refuse to believe in exists and is using you.

You misthink and mischaracterize. I do not "refuse to believe", I once believed, but now I have learned my error.

You and countless others are part of an organized attack on christianity that was documented over a hundred years ago as to how it would be precisely carried out.

A hundred years ago, huh? I could swear Christianity laid the seed of its own downfall much earlier than that. After all, the Founding Fathers didn't even consider themselves Christian, and much of their arguments hold weight in our minds today. And they weren't the originators of the enlightenment.

Your mindset is a creation of the thing you are bound by. It's using you to do it's dirty work only to destroy you in the end.

If by end, you mean "death", hey, that's life. But, oh, I forgot, you are totally confused by death, aren't you? It has no sting or something like that right?

And because of what? Because an immortal pretended to die to save me from the wrongful punishment of the victim of a fraud?

It has no respect for your life neither now or then.

My life continues regardless of whether your imaginary enemy respects it or not. And it ends, regardless of whether I believe your imaginary friend saves me or not. That comes from a true and clear understanding of death.

I wish you could see.

I can see. I wish you could. PLEASE START HERE!

WiseSheep, I can't say I've met a Christian that didn't use his own life in his testimony except you. Why do you keep so tight-lipped about yourself? I can understand you not being able to answer my questions about the faith, but why don't you answer questions about yourself, personally? I don't accept that it won't matter in ten thousand years. That's Amazing Grace. This is you. I want to know more about the real you.

Are you familiar with Poe's Law?

After melatonin told me about the guy in the video, I started thinking that you are really an atheist pretending to be a Christian. If this is true, and I know you won't admit it, I don't agree with this methodology at all. It's really not helpful. Not to mention you are wasting my time.

I can certainly understand if you were an atheist, you might not testify from your real life, but I know I could, because I used to be a Christian and I have my old testimonies that I used to ensnare people into Christ. I just think it's wrong.

Even if I think you are an atheist, I'll still refute what you say.

Originally posted by Columbus
WiseSheep, I can't say I've met a Christian that didn't use his own life in his testimony except you.

It hasn't been asked and it hasn't been needed.

Originally posted by Columbus
Why do you keep so tight-lipped about yourself?

I haven't been required to speak of myself, if so I would.

Originally posted by Columbus
I can understand you not being able to answer my questions about the faith, but why don't you answer questions about yourself, personally?

I haven't been asked.

Originally posted by Columbus
This is you. I want to know more about the real you.

Interesting, but the thread is about religion, not me. You were sent here targeting me, whether you even know it or not. You've given yourself away.

Originally posted by Columbus
Are you familiar with Poe's Law?

What you are seeing is reality, as bad as your spirit hates to admit it. That's why you keep being drawn back. If you would open your eyes and see, you would see what I see. You have the brain to do it. We all do.

Originally posted by Columbus
After melatonin told me about the guy in the video

Even a blind man could discern he was a fraud. You've never witnessed the power of GOD enough to know that it's real. I'm not saying you intentionally dressed up and played christian, but that's what happened whether you were conscious of it or not. IF your story is even true. IF it is, you became part of a social gathering or some mess, rather than knowing GOD. Had you have known GOD and found that the 'religious church' was a fraud, as most of it is. You would still know him, but would have been further taught about it.

Originally posted by Columbus
I started thinking that you are really an atheist pretending to be a Christian.

This is my own opinion here, but I'd be willing to bet that it's pretty dead on. "Christian Atheists" are used by satan to create Atheists. Then in return Athiests are used by satan in an attempt to lead young christians away, or non-believers that are looking for answers to fill the hole that's in them.

When a person sees a bunch running around not believing in what they are selling, it makes them see the whole thing as a joke. In that said case it would be all a joke.

If people believed the world is going to hell, they would warn it. Not doing so makes them a fraud even in the world's eyes. If a freak does stand up and tell people they are going to hell without Jesus Christ. I imagine he's such a stand out thing, people don't know what to think.

If Jesus were to repeat history and come back right now (which won't happen before the antichrist, but anyhow just an example). He could preach in a few megachurches in the US and he'd be crucified again. Forget the laws and everything else, I guarantee you it'd be public.

He'd be crucified by the same spirit that did 2000 years ago. The ones who love their power behind the pulpit and money. I doubt Rome would even have a chance to get to him before this crowd had him swung up.

Originally posted by Columbus
If this is true, and I know you won't admit it, I don't agree with this methodology at all. It's really not helpful. Not to mention you are wasting my time.

The only one wasting time here is me with you. Unless your heart is opened, you will not see. If it ever is opened, it will amaze you.

Originally posted by Columbus
I can certainly understand if you were an atheist

If I were an atheist, I'd be siding with you. Clinging to every lie man has fabricated, blindly leading those who are seeking to hell.

Originally posted by Columbus
you might not testify from your real life

It hasn't been needed in any case I've been up against. Not applicable.

To try to make a long story short, I've seen a little bit of everything. I've lived around the pharisaic holiness doctrine which I have seen satan actively at work within. They say it's the power of "GOD", but it's revealed as his counterfeit. I'm not saying they are the only. True christianity has no label. You can find some garbage within any branch of the religious.

I've had first hand experience with ones in my family used by demons. These people all the while feel they are "holy" and do no wrong. That's what makes them vulnerable and open to them. The same with an Atheist. That which you don't believe in can use you that much more.

I've spent time in Africa as a kid, the son of missionaries. I could go on and on and on. The religious institution is a total joke, most of which will bring about the anti-christ and bow down to him.

Originally posted by Columbus
I used to be a Christian and I have my old testimonies that I used to ensnare people into Christ. I just think it's wrong.

Even if I think you are an atheist, I'll still refute what you say.

You were lead astray by satan because you weren't deeply rooted. He's using you now, targeting me. Even if you think it is your own mind making the conscious choices to do what you are doing here. It's not just "you".

You won't shake me. I've seen too much to stumble. The sad thing is, if any do stumble as a result of you. You have no clue what sentence you are heaping up on your head for eternity. You have no clue. It'd be better to go to hell alone than to take any with you.


If you would seek GOD, you would find him. You've had so much garbage planted in your head against GOD and his word, that it would be an incredible battle for you to fight. It is possible. One can do all things through Jesus Christ, if not I'd have been destroyed a long time ago.

Originally posted by Columbus
I started thinking that you are really an atheist pretending to be a Christian.

Here's likely one of the finest examples of christian atheism there is. The world is eat up with them though. Do some more research on Marjoe Gortner and see how his mother programmed him from childhood on to make money.

I'm sympathetic with him, because he's a product of his parents and I hope he finds/has found the truth.

Jesus said not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" (as in mentioning him many many times, with many many words) will enter into the kingdom of heaven. This shows it at it's finest, or should I say worst.

Please wise sheep dont take what I have to say the wrong way.

If he is the devil look at Jesus' life how did he fight the devil? well he rebuked him right? yes. What else? he did not talk to him. If he did he used scripture. so if we are supposed to be imitaters of Jesus than, when fighting the devil we would arm ourselves with the Word, and eventually lead to a point where we dont talk to him. That probably sounds hard but, I think it is better than losing your cool and satan catching us in that and turning it around to look like a hypocrite when we did not mean it like that you know

God bless

Originally posted by followerofchrist
Please wise sheep dont take what I have to say the wrong way.

If he is the devil look at Jesus' life how did he fight the devil? well he rebuked him right?

No, he's the product of the teaching of man, rather than GOD. If he doesn't benefit from what I say, someone else will.

He's turned himself against us because of frauds. If not directly because of them, he refuses to look back, because of them.

Originally posted by followerofchrist
If he did he used scripture. so if we are supposed to be imitaters of Jesus than, when fighting the devil we would arm ourselves with the Word, and eventually lead to a point where we dont talk to him.

Indeed, but most of these are likely here screaming for help in their rebellion.

Originally posted by followerofchrist
That probably sounds hard but, I think it is better than losing your cool

I sympathize with him. He's been led away because of lies. Like I almost have been.

Originally posted by followerofchrist
and satan catching us in that and turning it around to look like a hypocrite when we did not mean it like that you know

God bless

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Here is a much better article I rediscovered, dealing specifically with conversion (brainwashing):
The Battle for Your Mind

I am not trying to convert you or control you or lead you astray and the proof is in this article. I am trying to arm you with facts and yes the truth, the real truth, will set you free. You will be able to see much more after reading this. I strongly urge you to read this, but here are some snippets to get you started:

Some Christian Fundamentalists, cults, and human-potential trainings would also prefer that the public remain unaware of how they are recruiting new members.

IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF MAN, NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN BRAINWASHED AND REALIZED, OR BELIEVED, THAT HE HAD BEEN BRAINWASHED.

This is why I have always pressed the brainwashing issue, even if it seems tired to you, it is because you don't know enough or you think it isn't real. Read the article. Know the techniques, what they are and how they are performed and ultimately that they work and are real, you've experienced them. See them in your life. This is the only real exposing you will do.

Those who have been brainwashed will usually passionately defend their manipulators, claiming they have simply been "shown the light" ... or have been transformed in miraculous ways.

Stockholm Syndrome is when you return to your oppressors to protect them and to receive guidance from them, and to reinforce your brainwashing to their side. The sad thing is those who are brainwashed quickly reinforce it themselves when it is weakened. I know you do. You are so very weak.

By inducing guilt and acute apprehension and by increasing the tension, the sinners attending his (Jonathan Edwards) revival meetings would break down and completely submit. ... He would tell those attending, "You're a sinner! You're destined for hell!"

Originally posted by WiseSheepIf people believed the world is going to hell, they would warn it.

Any of this sounding familiar? YOU USE BRAINWASHING AGAINST ME AND OTHERS. WE WILL NOT BE FOOLED AGAIN.

PLEASE STOP!

Once catharsis or the first brain phase is reached, the complete mental takeover becomes easier.

This is called a psychotic break. I provided a link to an article on psychosis several times. You consistently ignored it as usual. No response from you! Did you read it? If you honestly read it you would not be able to deny it.

Conversion Tactic 5: The introduction of jargon -- new terms that have meaning only to the "insiders" who have participated in the training. Vicious language is also frequently used to purposely make participants uncomfortable.

In True Christianity, the jargon (Dog Whistle) includes death, truth, religion, cult, and many other words that have totally different meanings than they do outside. Even the word Hell has no meaning unless you believe in it.

You know that we have different definitions of these words, and it is to YOUR DISADVANTAGE.

Alertness Reduction: The controllers cause the nervous system to malfunction (methods shown in the article), making it difficult to distinguish between fantasy and reality.

A demonic world where a battle is taking place is utter fantasy. Who told you this crap? Why do you accept it? Gullibility?

Programmed Confusion: This is accomplished with a deluge of new information, lectures, discussion groups, encounters or one-to-one processing, which usually amounts to the controller bombarding the individual with questions. During this phase of decognition, reality and illusion often merge and perverted logic is likely to be accepted.

It is depressing to see how severely crippled the critical thinking abilities of True Christians are. Any effort to point out your misthinking always leads to disaster.

"True believers are not intent on bolstering and advancing a cherished self, but are those craving to be rid of an unwanted self. They are followers, not because of a desire for self-advancement, but because it can satisfy their passion for self-renunciation!" Hoffer also says that true believers "are eternally incomplete and eternally insecure."

I knew from the moment I encountered you that you were insecure and shaking. You cannot deny the undeniably obvious. The quest for Christ-likeness is self-destruction. You make yourself a puppet with a limited tiresome vocabulary of overused misunderstood Scripture.

Never underestimate the potential danger of these people. They can easily be molded into fanatics who will gladly work and die for their holy cause.

I cautioned you to be wary should anyone try to convince you to kill. The 9/11 terrorists were involved in a Quran study group no different than a Bible study group. Eternal insecurity and the inherent weakness of gullible unsubstantial faith motivates people like you to desperate acts.

A common hatred, enemy or devil is essential to the success of a mass movement. Hitler's devil was the Jews; the Born-Again Christians have Satan himself, but that isn't enough -- they've added the New Age and all who oppose their integration of church and politics, as evidenced in the political reelection campaigns against those who opposite their views.

The following article also affected me personally because I had spent almost four years training. The classes were taught at the church.
Christian Karate: Martial Art of Cult

Dismissiveness. This word encompasses the willful ignorance and insulting holier-than-thou attitude conveyed in the clueless remarks by WiseSheep and followerofchrist.

It is no wonder that atheists hold the dominant position and high ground on this forum. True Believers can't behave themselves because they are disequipped to think critically through the mind control they suffer.

Every moment you fight in the spirit against demons and Satan you are detached from reality, psychotic. You can't come to a healthy reality by fighting in a fantasy world. You come to reality, the truth, by walking away from fantasy and delusion and spiritual nonsense.

If you insist on fighting in a fantasy, it will spill over, and you will become a terrorist. Killing is so easy when death has no sting.

Originally posted by Columbus

It is no wonder that atheists hold the dominant position and high ground on this forum. True Believers can't behave themselves because they are disequipped to think critically through the mind control they suffer.

I wouldn't go so far as to say atheism holds a higher mark on this forum. That really isn't what this forum is about unless of course you are talking about proving facts, which neither a believer nor a non-believer could ever attain to. There is literally no proof or disproof of God to debate. Therefore how can either of those groups hold the "high ground" in a forum based on proving evidence and denying ignorance? I for one would like to see a happy medium between the believers and non believers, as a way of mutual respect for personal belief. I see both sides using whatever the best extreme tool of persuasiveness of evidence against the other side all the time on here. I understand both sides of the never ending debate and can do nothing about it, sadly.

Every moment you fight in the spirit against demons and Satan you are detached from reality, psychotic. You can't come to a healthy reality by fighting in a fantasy world. You come to reality, the truth, by walking away from fantasy and delusion and spiritual nonsense.

Here is a thought, Columbus. What if the fabric of reality is an illusion designed to compel you to believe in the opposite of what is real? Can you prove to me that the color of the sky looks the same shade of blue to you as it does to me? Can you prove that a psychotic's reality is less real than your reality? Everyone's idea of what is and isn't real is actually the truth Columbus. We make our world. The key is to make one that agrees with everyone else.

If you insist on fighting in a fantasy, it will spill over, and you will become a terrorist. Killing is so easy when death has no sting.

More people probably refrain from killing in the name of God than do so. It is apparent you put all the eggs in one basket because a few of them soiled the white garment. This is no different than racism based on the acts of a few peoples. I don't think you are a racist, but apparently the new racism is bashing Christians.

Originally posted by WiseSheepYou think you are free, but you know not freedom. You don't know the nature of the thing that has you bound. You and countless others are part of an organized attack on christianity that was documented over a hundred years ago as to how it would be precisely carried out.

Or, you are not able to know what anyone but yourself is supposed to believe. If Christianity faces an organized effort to crush it, it is of its own doing, and a response that came about from centuries of Christian aggression, conquest, abuse, domination, oppression, exploitation, and destruction. If Muslims, or Jews, or traditional religion adherents, whether Native American, Asian, African, or European, are less righteous than Christians, then you are right. But why can't they be as right as you? Validity of faith is not exclusively held by Christians alone. All can be equally valid.
If Christianity dies out, that is not the fault of anyone else but Christians themselves, and is due to their abandoning it for some reason. If it is not meant to last, it won't. It likely will, though, just someday it will probably no longer be at the top of the global heap, which shouldn't matter anyway.

Ben I like what you had to say.
I believe though it is the world that has blinded Religion. It was not Religion that took out prayer in schools, rather it was the World that took out the prayer. Religion was not the one who took the Ten Commandments from outside the front of the Supreme Court, it was the world. Look at the new dollar coin, Religion did not put, " In God we Trust " on the side of the coin, rather it was the world. The world has blinded Religion more than Religion has blinded the world.
All so the world can do what they want, without being told that is against some God, or that what they are doing is bad.

Originally posted by followerofchristIIt was not Religion that took out prayer in schools. Religion was not the one who took the Ten Commandments from outside the front of the Supreme Court, it was the world. The world has blinded Religion more than Religion has blinded the world.

I am relieved that the state, and more specifically, the courts, now feel it is necessary to acknowledge that all faiths must be fairly treated, no single one given a preferred position. In the past, the 10 commandments were not an issue. Now, they are. Other faiths are judged in those rooms, and a plaque stating, "Have no other Gods before me"(meaning the Christian God), implies that non-Christians are going against what the courts believe is true because they have another God before them.
I agree the world blinded religion. And prayer is still in schools. Just not prayers that are memorized, forced, and not sincerely said by many who are made to recite them.
Prayers are said in schools across the US every hour of every day, I guarantee it.

Yes, but you see my point though The world has blinded Religion not the reversal like the title of this thread. Thats all.

God bless

Originally posted by WiseSheep

Originally posted by Columbus
I can understand you not being able to answer my questions about the faith, but why don't you answer questions about yourself, personally?

I haven't been asked.

Originally posted by Columbus
This is you. I want to know more about the real you.

Interesting, but the thread is about religion, not me.

Ah. Misdirection again. Columbus DID ask you about yourself. At first you say you haven't been asked, then you dodge the question by saying that this thread isn't about you.

So if you don't want to answer it here, shall I start a new thread so you can tell us your story? Or can you just get on with it here?

Columbus had some very valid arguments, and I for one would like to hear your own story and why you are so adamant in your religion.

True I, myself, would love to hear Wisesheeps testimony but, I believe that when God puts it on someones heart to share it is the time to share it. So, Wisesheep no rush tell us when either you feel comfortable or when He puts it on your heart to but, I would love to hear it.

God bless

or religion itself could be a form of blindness akin to someone forcing their eyes closed to keep out the logic and reason of the world.

just playing around with the metaphor.

Originally posted by ben91069
I wouldn't go so far as to say atheism holds a higher mark on this forum.

It isn't only this forum. I used to post on several other forums, but I used a different name then. The worst forums will censor, remove posts, and outright ban anyone questioning, let alone critical of Christianity.

Christians who suffer mind control have had their critical thinking abilities disabled, even people I knew were intelligent before they were born again. Christianity is so full of obvious holes that you will sabotage your own thinking to protect the virus that has nested in your mind, and create a false sense of security. This false sense of security is tangibly false, this leads to acting out and eventually violence.

Every time a Christian claims to see and hear God, this is an act of reinforcing their brainwashing against reality pressing in. This kind of talk is constant even when there are no atheists around, like in church groups and bible studies! They are so terrified that they huddle together and reinforce each others delusions.

There is literally no proof or disproof of God to debate.

God has been disproven. I demonstrated this to you myself. Have you forgotten so soon? Debate is a Christian activity, the realm of Duane Gish and his ilk. It presupposes that the issue is open to debate. It is not. God has been disproven.

...how can either of those groups hold the "high ground" in a forum based on proving evidence and denying ignorance?...

ATS is not in the business of Denying Ignorance in spite of the motto. The high ground is held by people who act honorably and with discretion. The opposite of people like WiseSheep and followerofchrist.

I for one would like to see a happy medium between the believers and non believers, as a way of mutual respect for personal belief.

I would like people who have been manipulated into a cult be free. It is cults that press intolerance because they can't tolerate criticism. Any belief that can withstand criticism without resorting to ignorance or violence might be considered true, but Christianity is clearly not in that category.

...the best extreme tool of persuasiveness of evidence against the other side...

There is something about these words that raises a big red flag with me. Extremism? Coercive Persuasion? And then you insert evidence which requires no persuasion and speaks for itself. Where are the spherical earth extremists? Evidence has made them unnecessary.

I understand both sides of the never ending debate and can do nothing about it, sadly.

This is a self-contradictory statement. The believers have no understanding to share, and the unbelievers have an airtight case with the believers inside it suffocating with no avenues left to escape through.

What if the fabric of reality is an illusion designed to compel you to believe in the opposite of what is real?

I'm sure I recommended to you to read even an entry-level book or a basic course in philosophy. The subject of the brain in a jar will come up. It falls in a category of skepticism called global skepticism, the belief that everything you perceive is not real or cannot be known to be true. Then there's Kurt Vonnegut's book Breakfast of Champions and The Matrix movies. There are of course a few proofs that global skepticism is not consistent with reality, beyond the fact that global skeptics look like idiots.

Can you prove that a psychotic's reality is less real than your reality?

Yes. WiseSheep is a psychotic. His "truth" fails tests consistently. Each time I point this out to him, he fails to respond to me. He's in a logical bind. He claims he has no obligation to respond. So what? It only proves my point.

Everyone's idea of what is and isn't real is actually the truth Columbus.

This is false. Truth is what is consistent with reality. Reality is independent of individual thought. Reality does not conform with thought. That is frankly a stupid claim.

We make our world.

World = Delusion

The key is to make one that agrees with everyone else.

LCD, the lowest common denominator. The smartest scientists in the world have to dumb down to accept the simple world the majority of people delude themselves with.

More people probably refrain from killing in the name of God than do so.

Probably? Not a single killing in Iraq was not done in the name of God, including by American soldiers who kill at the command of...

This is no different than racism based on the acts of a few peoples.

The subject isn't racism and it's not Christianity for that matter, it's mind control and how people who have been brainwashed behave, especially when their cult is challenged. You are so missing the point.

...the new racism is bashing Christians.

You are totally blind to the fact that Christians are the ones, the far greater majority, that have been doing the bashing for a good long while. And they have been doing it because it is part of the brainwashing program.

Did you read the article I just posted? There is a section there about setting up a demon to unite the masses against. Who do you think plays the role of demon? WiseSheep can't help himself but to accuse me of being controlled without my knowledge by demons even though the real evidence contradicts this a thousandfold.

Originally posted by followerofchrist
Ben I like what you had to say.
I believe though it is the world that has blinded Religion.

Don't enjoy my words too much.......I might say something you might disagree with!

Actually, this is an ongoing debate here. The atheists accuse religion of ruining the world for the last few millennium and the fundamentalists accuse the world of blinding the flock to what would otherwise be truth.

Like the fact that religions and denominations are so divided, I actively try to define my faith to be equally accessible to all people of all beliefs. I interpret the Christian doctrine message to mean uniformity of all faiths, and even apply it to what atheists believe, if they so desire to just do without God.

To each their own, but I believe that all is forgiven and that divine love prevails. It has to or logically, the world must end.

Well your right about disagreeing in that I dont think all religions. I mean even in the bible it talks about not believing false doctrines but, otherwise yeah I still agree with you.

God bless

Originally posted by Columbus
It isn't only this forum. I used to post on several other forums, but I used a different name then. The worst forums will censor, remove posts, and outright ban anyone questioning, let alone critical of Christianity.

But what you will find here is the mods are disciplined enough to go by the forum rules, where other places you can be censored without reason or logic.
This is why I choose to remain a member here, because the rules are consistent.

Christians who suffer mind control have had their critical thinking abilities disabled, even people I knew were intelligent before they were born again.

But this is not exclusive to Christians. This is also representative of many people today without consideration of religion. Many people today have lost the ability to think critically. It isn't so much that they can't, it is just that they don't practice. Think of it as being mentally lazy. You cannot say that it is just Christians who do this as your primary argument and still feel good about yourself.

Christianity is so full of obvious holes that you will sabotage your own thinking to protect the virus that has nested in your mind, and create a false sense of security. This false sense of security is tangibly false, this leads to acting out and eventually violence.

So why not interpret God to make sense rather than discard God. That's what I did.

Every time a Christian claims to see and hear God, this is an act of reinforcing their brainwashing against reality pressing in.

Do you have proof they don't see and hear God?

This kind of talk is constant even when there are no atheists around, like in church groups and bible studies! They are so terrified that they huddle together and reinforce each others delusions.

Perhaps they are euphoric about their beliefs and that makes them feel good. There is no law about feeling good about your belief system. In fact, I would rather have the fervor for something like they do than to not have it and believe as an atheist would. Seriously, I have never seen a group of non believers gathered in a huddle feeling good about believing in nothing (if that makes sense).

God has been disproven. I demonstrated this to you myself. Have you forgotten so soon?

God has never been disproven. As the atheist agenda testifies, there is no God, so you cannot disprove something that doesn't exist. Since Christianity relies on faith and not proof, there still is no basis for God to be proven from a religious point of view. You are beating a dead dog with a football bat.

ATS is not in the business of Denying Ignorance in spite of the motto. The high ground is held by people who act honorably and with discretion. The opposite of people like WiseSheep and followerofchrist.

ATS allows open debate which is denying ignorance. Without free speech, there would be nothing but ignorance, because everything would be biased. That is probably what the DI motto really means. To think it means anything else is stretching it, I agree. No one can honor anything more than what they believe. But let me ask you something, if you get so upset with these two members, why do you not throw rage at the mentally ill or those predisposed to not be as enlightened as you are?

I would like people who have been manipulated into a cult be free. It is cults that press intolerance because they can't tolerate criticism. Any belief that can withstand criticism without resorting to ignorance or violence might be considered true, but Christianity is clearly not in that category.

You mean like atheism. I have had plenty of crimes committed against me by those who stopped thinking about God and thinking about themselves. In fact, that is when evil does happen. Complacency is another matter, but the truth is atheism encourages people to just forget about love more and focus on the "me" generation.

...the best extreme tool of persuasiveness of evidence against the other side...

There is something about these words that raises a big red flag with me. Extremism? Coercive Persuasion? And then you insert evidence which requires no persuasion and speaks for itself. Where are the spherical earth extremists? Evidence has made them unnecessary.

There are many atheist extremists. The fact is that your side has the advantage currently by destiny. The bible predicts your rise, which is no surprise to me. Scientists are your extremists, but since the will is in your favor, we don't look at them that way. Evidence is just an illusion. You will see eventually that the physical world is not all there is. It is merely a short interlude of your real life. That is the atheist problem.

I understand both sides of the never ending debate and can do nothing about it, sadly.

This is a self-contradictory statement. The believers have no understanding to share, and the unbelievers have an airtight case with the believers inside it suffocating with no avenues left to escape through.

That was a rather sided statement. Here let me re-write it for you:

The non believers have no understanding to share, and the believers have an airtight case with the non-believers outside suffocating with no avenues left to escape through.

(see, it makes sense this way as well)

I'm sure I recommended to you to read even an entry-level book or a basic course in philosophy. The subject of the brain in a jar will come up. It falls in a category of skepticism called global skepticism, the belief that everything you perceive is not real or cannot be known to be true. Then there's Kurt Vonnegut's book Breakfast of Champions and The Matrix movies. There are of course a few proofs that global skepticism is not consistent with reality, beyond the fact that global skeptics look like idiots.

Well, it may just be philosophy, but philosophy predestines discovery. Certain people manage their lives by philosophy. I don't see why you cannot just incorporate that "philosophy" into religion. In fact, Christianity already has, but most of them don't know it. The idea of the anti-christ's lying signs and wonders is basically talking about a fake world. That is a matrix or false reality. But, I have read some of what you mentioned and I don't feel the idea is that far fetched. That is a topic for another discussion.

Yes. WiseSheep is a psychotic. His "truth" fails tests consistently. Each time I point this out to him, he fails to respond to me. He's in a logical bind. He claims he has no obligation to respond. So what? It only proves my point.

Logic is not necessarily truth. A person failing to respond to your "tests" is not truth either. I did not know that your tests and judgment were the litmus paper of what is true.

Everyone's idea of what is and isn't real is actually the truth Columbus.

This is false. Truth is what is consistent with reality. Reality is independent of individual thought. Reality does not conform with thought. That is frankly a stupid claim.

Reality is not outside you, but inside you Columbus. By your own definition, if you dream of a hotdog, it must be real, but since it is just a dream it is obviously a figment of your imagination even though people can taste, scent, touch, see, & hear in dreams..............yet they are sleeping. Is that real, when you believe in something, yet you are obviously not functioning in society physically yet the idea is a part of reality.

LCD, the lowest common denominator. The smartest scientists in the world have to dumb down to accept the simple world the majority of people delude themselves with.

I rather think that spiritual people have to study mundane things that make little difference to be on a level of pride and self-righteousness to be able to communicate to the world in the way the world finds acceptable. If you really want us to live according to the word, you might find unadulterated children better conversation. We have to be brainwashed and indoctrinated to the world and then fight like hell to become child like again all the while fighting the senseless words of atheists telling us we should be like them because your scientists are not smart enough to find something that deliberately hides itself from them. Great theory.

More people probably refrain from killing in the name of God than do so.

Probably? Not a single killing in Iraq was not done in the name of God, including by American soldiers who kill at the command of...

That is absolute garbage. The majority of people placed in a compromising situation do not think of God, but think of rationality and logic. I do it, you do it, most people do it. That is the brainwashing most people are raised with...lack of placing God in the thought process. God is love.