Separation of Church and State

Okay, since most of Thomas' posts are correcting the belief that this is how it was supposed to be, I decided to make a topic about it.

The Founding Fathers may have intended for this country to be run of Judeo-Christian principles but what I want to know from the people that bring this up is, how far do you go with religion in government? Is Christianity in governnment a president talking about God? If so, then there is no separation since Mr. Bush is often talking about Jesus. For example, when he was speaking about his opposition to gay marriage, did he not say "I believe we are all sinners." Or does the religion in government go beyond that? Do you want crucifixes with Jesus on them hanging on court walls? I know I don't. Why? Because I find that offensive. Wouldn't some Christians go up the wall if courts had the rules (or some such laws like that) of the Wiccan religion?


So what role do you want Christianity to play in government? I hope no one suggests a "Department of Faith." What exactly do you mean when you say this country needs to be run on Christian morals?

[Edited on 20-3-2004 by maynardsthirdeye]

The original authors of the Constitution intentionally avoided making a declaration of religion, because they didn't want the US to repeat the mistakes from which they were fleeing. They wanted a government formed objectively, without the influence of religion. The only mentions of religion or God in the Constitution, are in Article VI and the 1st Amendment:

Article VI. - The United States
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Amendment I - Ratified 12/15/1791
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

In neither case, is anything implied other than their desire for Americans to have religious freedom. In the Declaration of Independence we find the only other reference to God or religion:
"....to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them...that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
Again, neither statement implies a belief in Christianity, only a belief in a Creator or Supreme Being. It is true that 4 of the primary authors of the Constitution had quite a distaste for Christianity. Here is a quote from each of them on the subject:

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." - John Adams, letter to John Taylor

"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentence toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it.
Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore him to the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, the roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and imposters, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and the first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus." - Thomas Jefferson to W. Short, 1820

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." - Benjamin Franklin from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728

Even though many of the founding fathers did share a Judeo-Christian faith, they did not include their personal faith in the Constitution. They were well aware that religion could only destroy the impartiality necessary to create a free society. While they personally may have subscribed to the ideals of the 10 commandments, they were aware that not everyone else did. They were wise enough realize that if they made any declaration of faith in a particular God, it would end up being used against anyone who didn't believe in that God.

BTW:
The regular use of "In God We Trust" on US coins did not begin until 1908, "In God We Trust" was not made an official motto of the United States until 1956, and the motto did not appear on paper money until 1957.

The Pledge of Allegiance was not written with the term "under God" either. In its original form, it read:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Between 1924 and 1954, the Pledge of Allegiance was worded:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

In 1954, during the McCarthy era and communism scare, Congress passed a bill, which was signed into law, to add the words "under God." The current Pledge reads:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands; one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


The founders of this country DID intend for a separation of Church and State. They did it to protect everyone, the Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, etc. You cannot expect freedom for yourself, if you are not willing to extend the exact same freedoms to everyone else, whether they agree with you or not.

Simply put..no hint of there being a State-Sponsored Religion....

However, we are currently going against this by:

1. In God We Trust on money (yes, I know that it isn't exactly printed by the government, but privately, but you get the drift..)
2. Under God in the Pledge (was added in anyways...take it back out. This is a pledge of allegiance to our nation, not some farcical deity)
3. Swearing on a Bible in Court. (Would an Atheist care? )

A president though, is simply showing poor taste in his constant religious references. Poor taste, but not a direct violation of the principles of the Constitution, as he is entitled to voice his opinion....

It's when you actually have it as part of governmental documents (bills), official oaths, etc. that it crosses the line....

Religious folk seem to want it both ways.

They want there tax free freedom and still want prayer in public schools tool.

Why do they fail to understand that because our country is set up with Separation of Church and state they can have all the freedom of religion they want.

No taxes.
No one telling them what religion to believe.
To build churches

If we didn't have separations they would not enjoy these privileges. Religion would be a state run facility with one religion, one type of church etc.........

So is it too much to ask to keep prayer out of public schools and not to use government money on improving churchs and faith based initiatives? X-ians seem to get really offended when I say no prayer in public schools. They just don't get it. If prayer is good for them, it must be good for everyone right? :bnghd:

I agree. If Christians care so much about politics, why not let them pay the admission fee like everyone else (I mean taxes)?

Originally posted by maynardsthirdeye
I agree. If Christians care so much about politics, why not let them pay the admission fee like everyone else (I mean taxes)?

RIGHT ON! I agree! They get so pissy about that prayer in school thing. They feel they lost a great battle. Small price to pay to retain spiritual freedom right.

They want it there way............ TAX EM BABY!

I see that you are a follower of America's best Christian, Betty Bowers!!!

Yeah, I''m a better X-ian than most X-ians I know. people I know. Cough cough....

I feed the hungry, donate, volunteer and give to the poor. I just love it when they say "god bless you" I tell them, "gods got nothing to do with it, I'm a good person who just thinks for my self'

Ethics and morals come from my heart, not a list of commandmants in a book.

I couldn't agree more. Religion, mainly Catholicism and Christianity have infested almost every aspect of our lives. And it is clear that the founders of this country desired a seperation of church and state. Yet church continues to invade into our lives and affairs and they are still exempt from the penalties the rest of us have to pay...

While the founding father's used Judeo-Christian as a moral compass in the foundation of our ethics, they worked hard to draw a line between Govt and Religion. The basic ethics in our political foundations can be found in almost all religions. So I argue that you have to keep a separation in order to be fair to all different denominations.

The common uniting ground for different religions in this country is the freedom to worship as you please without fear or prosecution.

I think the swearing on a Bible in court has got to go. If you truly believe in Govt, you should have to swear on the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.

The God aspect should be taken out of the pledge of allegence. It was inserted after the fact. The original author did not write a religious aspect. Some self-righteous person injected it.


The more separation, the better!

Seperation of church and state indicates man has the authority to and has excercised the authority to seperate rule of state from rule of God.

Kingdom Come?