Soldier shot by police after refusing to return to Iraq

Originally posted by RRconservative
You are so right! Your chances of surviving this type of combat, are the same chances you take when you get in your car to take a ride. Throw in drunk drivers, idiots who continue to use cell phones while driving, murder rates in Metro areas, and random acts of nature, he might have been better off in Iraq!

So is your motto "stay safe, go to Iraq!"

Weren't you asked in another thread to provide statistics to prove this? Also, if you can't see the difference between fighting in Iraq, and going to Langenstein's grocery, then I'm really worried. I'll stick with going to the grocery, and I am sure that when I come back alive, I will not think, "whoa, that was scary, I would have felt so much safer in Iraq."

Originally posted by niteboy82

Originally posted by RRconservative
You are so right! Your chances of surviving this type of combat, are the same chances you take when you get in your car to take a ride. Throw in drunk drivers, idiots who continue to use cell phones while driving, murder rates in Metro areas, and random acts of nature, he might have been better off in Iraq!

So is your motto "stay safe, go to Iraq!"

Weren't you asked in another thread to provide statistics to prove this? Also, if you can't see the difference between fighting in Iraq, and going to Langenstein's grocery, then I'm really worried. I'll stick with going to the grocery, and I am sure that when I come back alive, I will not think, "whoa, that was scary, I would have felt so much safer in Iraq."

Yes, actually I provided statistics before I was asked.

1.5 million troop deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, and about 3,000 dead. Take the same 1.5 million during the same time frame, with the same demographics as the troops, and I am sure you will have a similar death rate.

Anyway I saw someone who agreed with me, and took the opportunity to elaborate!

I really don't pay attention to statistics, they get bent and warped so much that they have absolutely no bearing on reality... which is why Marketing Departments love to use them...

There are 3 levels of a lie :
1. Little white lies.
2. Bold faced lies.
3. Statistics.

It doesn't say it anywhere in the article, but I'll bet you 20 to 1 that guy was drinking and/or using drugs. Maybe he had post traumatic stress as a result of his previous deployment that exacerbated a pre-disposition to addiction. They might have waited it out for him to just come down. 99% of the suicide by cop cases where people have barricaded themselves into homes have more to do with the hopeless trapped feeling that's symptomatic of alcoholism than any real obstacle in life. The psychological obstacles are always much harder to overcome than the physical ones.

Not everyone who serves gets PTSD, and of those that do, not all of them develop or previously suffered alcoholism or addiction. But treatment and better awareness of the symptoms and realities of the disease would go far in helping some of those vulnerable returning soldiers deal with and accept the crippling psychological effects of war.

Tragic that his inner turmoil and hopelessness was expressed in such a desperate way, for his family, himself and the sharpshooter.

Originally posted by clearwater
It doesn't say it anywhere in the article, but I'll bet you 20 to 1 that guy was drinking and/or using drugs. Maybe he had post traumatic stress as a result of his previous deployment that exacerbated a pre-disposition to addiction.

It does say just that in this article.
www.editorandpublisher.com...

The problem is really not his post-traumatic stress disorder, or drinking/drugs.

Part of the problem:

* NWO
* Military Tactics
* Paramilitary Police Abuse
* War on terror

It makes sense to "smoke" so called "terrorist" out of caves in Afghanistan, but not an American at home in the US.

By cutting off your cellphone service and pumping noxious gas into a house and breaking the windows, will make any man go over the edge.


[edit on 29-12-2006 by XPhiles]

Originally posted by RRconservative
You are so right! Your chances of surviving this type of combat, are the same chances you take when you get in your car to take a ride. Throw in drunk drivers, idiots who continue to use cell phones while driving, murder rates in Metro areas, and random acts of nature, he might have been better off in Iraq!

[edit on 29-12-2006 by RRconservative]

That is why we shouldn't be in other countries, such as Iraq and Afghanistan, trying to fix their problems, when we have so many widespread lethal problems that need fixing here in the U.S. It may be that the reason there are problems in those other countries is because WE are there and have brought to their countries the violent and destructive obssessions that prevail in our own. America is just making problems worse at home and abroad by neglecting to fix the violent ills within itself and aggravating the problems in foreign lands.

crisko,


thankyou for the clarification about Reservists. I was unaware.


In Peace Always
res

Originally posted by SkyWay
That is why we shouldn't be in other countries, such as Iraq and Afghanistan, trying to fix their problems,

We are NOT trying to fix their problems ... The United States Military is being USED to Control the OIL flow.
These countries were NO threat to the United States except for the possibility that TexASS Oil Interests could not get full control of the OIL.

Link to Source Article

Besides, they couldn't take any chances with a soldier who had won a medal for shooting Afghan insurgents.

U.S. Forces, be advised, this is the attitude of local Law Enforcement, they will shoot you dead if given the chance.

If the officers' priority was to get Dean out safely, the family wanted to know,
1)why were the people he trusted not allowed to talk to him?
2)Why was his cellphone service cut off when he was trying to call his grandmother's house?
3)Why were they pushing him closer to the edge by pumping noxious gas into the house
(4) and breaking the windows?

It wasn't Suicide By Cop, if was Murder by Cop, which happens too often because the Cops are so well protected from litigation and having to serve time for the felonies they commit. Cops will place Drugs and Weapons on people so that they can get convictions, they rip-off drug dealers for their own gain. I have never, ever met an honest Cop in my life, they lie to protect their "brotherhood". Cops

Added Link

[edit on 29-12-2006 by 2stepsfromtop]

Originally posted by 2stepsfromtop

Originally posted by SkyWay
That is why we shouldn't be in other countries, such as Iraq and Afghanistan, trying to fix their problems,

We are NOT trying to fix their problems ... The United States Military is being USED to Control the OIL flow.
These countries were NO threat to the United States except for the possibility that TexASS Oil Interests could not get full control of the OIL.

You are absolutely right. But oil is the REAL reason for the U.S. attack against Iraq. I was using their own contrived excuse for the assault on Iraq to show that even THAT is not justified. We should get out of Iraq....apologize to the Iraqi people, and make restitution for all of the innocent lives that were destroyed and all of the destruction that this country caused to their land. But that would require courage and honor and nobility of heart, none of which are to be found in the people responsible for the Iraq war -- the Bush war-mongers.

Originally posted by crisko

Originally posted by resistancia
I do not understand why a Reservist would have to go to a theatre of war, are reservists not given a choice in the US ? Is the US running out of enlisted manpower ???

Reservists tend to go first - ahead of the regular forces.

No - the reservists do not have a choice - they made the decision when they joined the reserves.

Somewhat true

The first ones in are the special forces and acitve duty personnel.
Reservists and National Guard Units are called up after they want to cycle the active duty troops out, and their deployment is mandatory and can range from 6-18 months.
In this day and age with a trouble recruiting some reserve and guard units get called up multiple times.
For example and Alaskian National Guard Unit was deployed for 12 months, and upon their last week of duty told that they were going home for two weeks and had to return for another 12 months.


[edit on 29-12-2006 by Think About IT]

RRConservative, I can't help but assume that you haven't been to Iraq.

I applaud your courage in volunteering to continue your deployment here on the oh-so-dangerous home front while every coward in our society goes rushing off to the safety of combat in Iraq.

Give me a break. Your statistics indicate that deployment is safer than being stationed in the US only because they are incomplete.

You are more likely to live through Iraq because the military is acutely aware of the danger you are in and prepared to provide medical treatment. If Marines traveled with their units everywhere they went here in the US and had medevac on standby at all times, it'd be another story.

It also changes dramatically when you count the ones whose lives had to be saved. Total casualties (dead and wounded) in Iraq for all coalition troops and civilian personnel are over 31,000.

If there were a city with a population equal to the number of coalition personnel in Iraq, and that city had the same rate of violence, probablity indicates that every single person in that city would have been shot at least once in his lifetime by the time he reached age 24. That doesn't sound safer than being at home to me.

We average 1 casualty per 9,000 man-days. Thats the same as having 1 shooting every 6 days at a highschool with 4500 students that is open 8 hours a day, or if you grouped all the shootings together instead of speading them out, that would be like having a highschool where Columbine has happened twice every year for the last 3 years.

Does that sound safer than being home to you?


This guy cracked, and he did the wrong thing. That's something that he's responsible for. There is no dishonor in lacking the emotional strength to kill and possibly be killed- most people couldn't, but this person also lacked the emotional strength to choose a way out of that situation which would be least harmful to himself and his family, and what's more he endangered the lives of police while he was at it. He's responsible for that, and it hurts to see a guy who tried to do the right thing by joining the reserves fall so low, but it happened.

His is a sympathetic situation though, even if the choice he made was not. He stepped forward to be one of the few men who could do the difficult things that are necessary to his country's survival, and he did it successfully once. Then what does his country do but go start another one, of questionable necessity and undeniably mismanage it at the expense of men like him.

I understand why he didn't want to go back. The only thing about this that reflects badly on him in my own opinion is that he couldn't find the courage to refuse service without doing what he did, and stand either before his commanding officer in Non-Judicial Punishment or before a court-martial, make his case, and accept whatever verdict was rendered (I am well aware that some will disagree with me, that's fine, you value different things than I value).

STUPID

So this guy commits suicide (by cop) with a 100% chance of fatality because he doesn't want to go to Iraq where he has a smaller chance of getting killed (sorry, I don't have an exact percentage). Logic anyone?

Obviously he has other mental issues, especially if he went as far out as he did. Barricading himself and shooting at cops and all. Everyone knows if you shoot at cops you usually end up dead. So what exactly was he trying to achieve?

I feel that his up and coming tour in Iraq played only a small part in his suicide and that this story is blatant one sided propaganda. Made "news" only because this man had some connection to the war and went postal. People go nuts every day and only the select few make it to the papers. The few that can be used to support a cause, an idea, a propaganda war, etc...

Originally posted by PlausibleDeniability
Obviously he has other mental issues,

I feel that his up and coming tour in Iraq played only a small part in his suicide and that this story is blatant one sided propaganda.

The first part of this quote is fairly accurate, the second, I disagree with. I observed a lot about the way people, including myself, react to physical and mental stress when I was in the Corps, and I absolutely believe that the weight of deployment to Iraq would be enough to break some people like this.

Granted it wouldn't have happened if he'd been a stronger man, but that's not to say that Iraq wasn't his primary motivation or that the story is being manipulated. When your emotions break down, so does logic.

I'll tell you a little story that I'm not so proud of. When I was at the School of Infantry, I ticked one of my NCOs off, but good. He decided that 6 hours of fire watch, three nights in a row would be a good way to make me remember never ever ever to repeat that particular mistake. If I'd known there was a rule about that I would have requested mast, but I didn't know.

So basically, I was looking at only getting 1 hour sleep for the third night in a row. (My problems related to that situation went far deeper than lost sleep, but I'm not going to go into it all right now)

I very seriously entertained the idea of jumping off a 2nd story walkway to break my ankles... of course I didn't. I was stressed but I had the composure to realize that it would only make things worse... but the point is that when a man is scared, tired, depressed, etc and lacks much power to do anything about it, he begins to entertain thoughts that would never even occur to a rational mind.

If you have personal weaknesses that put you in a position like that, it becomes a test of whether you at least have the strength to limp out of the situation in the most rational way, or whether you snap and do something stupid. This guy wasn't able to.

Was it more than just Iraq? I'm not saying for sure that it wasn't, but it's entirely possible that it was just Iraq. I've seen and heard of all kinds of ridiculous crap.
There were two guys in another company while I was in boot who decided to get out by playing grab-ass in the shower. There have been guys who killed themselves in boot even- and that's not even a friggin war. That's just 12 weeks of rigorous exercise, yelling, and lonliness. I didn't like it at the time but looking back I miss some of it- but its enough to drive some people to suicide.

I wouldn't be too quick to jump to the defense of the war. This war IS killing people, and there's a pretty good chance that it's what killed this man, in a manner of speaking.

vagabond:

just wanted to say that i always enjoy reading your input, even when i disagree with your take on a subject. your one of the best posters on this board, with a real nack for putting your opinion in a clear, concise, and easily read form. i only wish i was as talented in the use of the english language.

Very kind of you to say so Snafu. As for disagreeing at times, odds are that if you wait 6-12 months I'll learn something new and once again shift my opinions at least in some nuanced way. I wish I could take full credit for my way with words, but truth be told I owe it to the ridiculous state of California public schools. If they'd taught me anything I might not have done so much reading on my own time.

Originally posted by crisko

Originally posted by resistancia
I do not understand why a Reservist would have to go to a theatre of war, are reservists not given a choice in the US ? Is the US running out of enlisted manpower ???

Reservists tend to go first - ahead of the regular forces.

No - the reservists do not have a choice - they made the decision when they joined the reserves.

Rerservists do not go in ahead of the regular forces, where on earth did you get that. you are completely wrong.
Reservists are used to supplement the regular forces.

Originally posted by SkyWay
That's heartbreaking. After surviving a year and a half in combat in Afghanistan he returns home to and gets killed. His own country proved to be a bigger threat to his life than foreign forces he faced in Afghanistan.

Like I said above. Perhaps he shouldn't shoot police officers. I hear that will help your chances of surviving. You can't make a martyr out of all the bad guys.

I find it incredibly strange and to be honest quite sad, that you guys should criticize the actions of this reservist and the way his life was ended.
That he decided to take this stand speaks volumes to me.

A reservist who has already served his country in Afghanistan for 18 months.

A reservist who may have seen combat, with death an ever present companion.

A reservist with very serious issues and probably suffering from PTSD, is ordered to report to his unit and deploy to Iraq?

And all you guys can do is to argue amongst yourselves as to whether his death was 'suicide by cop' or whether he killed himself.

Disgusting.

You should be asking yourselves and your government why this happened and when are you going to bring your boys home.

PTSD is no laughing matter. #s with your head in ways which words cannot explain. Many times, it brings a mess of other things along with it, such as depression crashes, mania blitzes, anxiety, and of course an endless loop of whatever memories have broken you. However, these are the risks we take when enlisting. RIP in itself can do things to your mind, add to that combat stress and other trauma.

Regardless of how "misleading" the title is, however, the fact remains that this man was more than likely pushed over the edge by redeployment orders. And I happen to know the military is pretty cheap when it comes to ensuring the mental health of your average soldier.

In a way, it was suicide by cop. However, I doubt this man was in his right mind, and who takes the blame for that one. Guess it depends on which side of the spectrum you're on.