Pelosi and her merry band of democrats will steal

from the rich corporations and make them poor. This is good news for those on the left.

Until they retire and find out that their pension funds depended on corperations remaining rich and prosperous---for those that don’t understand how money gets into pension funds---it really isn’t put there by the tooth fairy, it’s put there by profits made by corperation, no profits no pension funds, it’s that simple---Duh!

Yeah, go Pelosi and company, bring those big oil companies to their knees, and see how many pension funds fold.

Btw I have no pensions or stocks in the oil companies and would actually benefit from wealth redistribution, but the fact is if I don’t earn it I don’t want it, it’s that simple.

I couldn't agree more. The sad thing is that this will be the first step of many to turn the US into a socialist society. I am no friend of the fat cats, but their is a science to the way the economy works and I would rather have a prosperous independent one than a state run infrastrucure the left is pushing for. Just the beginning just watch.

Reexaming some special tax breaks oil companies receive might be something I'd agree with, but iimposing new "windfall profits" taxes etc. is a really bad idea and unfair to these large corporations that need to be large to compete.

Here's a good read about the pension debacle.

However, I think the bigger issue is the widening gap between corporate executive and worker compensation. Perhaps if those running these corporations had a sense of service, there wouldn't be any impetus for any government intervention whatsoever.

As the stock market slides and U.S. workers face the biggest wave of job cuts in a decade, top executives continue to enjoy exorbitant pay hikes, according to a new report, “Executive Excess 2001: Layoffs, Tax Rebates and the Gender Gap.” The report is the eighth annual study on the CEO-worker pay gap by the Institute for Policy Studies and United for a Fair Economy.

Key findings from the study include:

The 1990s: A Decade of Greed

Executive pay jumped 571 percent between 1990 and 2000. CEO pay rose even in 2000, a year in which the S&P 500 suffered a 10 percent loss. The explosion in CEO pay over the decade dwarfed the 37 percent growth in worker pay.

If the average annual pay for production workers had grown at the same rate since 1990 as it has for CEOs, their 2000 annual earnings would have been $120,491 instead of $24,668. Likewise, if the minimum wage, which stood at $3.80 an hour in 1990, had grown at the same rate as CEO pay over the decade, it would now be $25.50 an hour, rather than the current $5.15 an hour.

Layoff Leaders

CEOs of firms that announced layoffs of 1,000 or more workers this year earned about 80 percent more, on average, than executives at 365 top firms surveyed by Business Week. The layoff leaders earned an average of $23.7 million in total compensation in 2000, compared with a $13.1 million average for executives as a whole.

The top job-cutters received an increase in salary and bonus of nearly 20 percent in 2000, compared to average raises in that year for U.S. wage workers of about 3 percent and for salaried employees of 4 percent.

Tax Rebates

Between 1996 and 1998, 41 large, profitable corporations used special tax breaks and credits to reduce their corporate tax bill to less than zero. Instead of paying taxes, they received outright tax rebate checks from the U.S. Treasury. As a group, the CEOs of these tax rebate firms averaged pay hikes of 69 percent, far above the typical CEO raise of 38 percent. Those pay hikes, made possible in part by tax rebates, totaled $194 million. In six cases, the CEO¹s raise entirely consumed his company¹s tax rebate for the year.

CEOs at the tax rebate companies earned 12 percent more on average than executives in the Business Week surveys for the years 1996-98. Executive pay at the tax rebate companies totaled $495 million during those years, equivalent to 15 percent of the $3.2 billion in total tax refunds paid to those companies over the period.

Gender Gap

Heather Killen, a senior vice president of Yahoo, was the highest-paid woman in America in 2000, with a total compensation package of $32.7 million, a mere 11 percent of the highest-paid male (John Reed of Citigroup: $293 million).

The 30 highest-paid women in the corporate world earned average total compensation of $8.7 million, as compared with $112.9 million for the 30 highest-paid men, a ratio of 1 to 13.

The report concludes with a survey of efforts by grassroots organizations, activist shareholders, and legislators to challenge the growing divide.

The Institute for Policy Studies is an independent center for progressive research and education in Washington, DC. United for a Fair Economy is a national organization based in Boston that provides educational resources and supports grassroots and legislative action to reduce economic inequality.

The full report is available here.

Always,
Shawnna

Originally posted by shai hulud
Just the beginning just watch.

Unfortunately at this point that's all we can do.

Btw I like your signature-------

Originally posted by sleeper
from the rich corporations and make them poor. This is good news for those on the left.

Until they retire and find out that their pension funds depended on corperations remaining rich and prosperous---for those that don’t understand how money gets into pension funds---it really isn’t put there by the tooth fairy, it’s put there by profits made by corperation, no profits no pension funds, it’s that simple---Duh!

Yeah, go Pelosi and company, bring those big oil companies to their knees, and see how many pension funds fold.

Btw I have no pensions or stocks in the oil companies and would actually benefit from wealth redistribution, but the fact is if I don’t earn it I don’t want it, it’s that simple.

Oh you mean like Enron? BTW, any money you earn from your pension IS your money and it IS earned. You worked for it, you put money into your pension, it was invested and so you earned it, it's not a hand out.

Unfortunately for now it is all we can do but watch. It seems that both parties are hell bent to either punish economically independent Americans or take their rights (or ignore their constituents). Oh and thanks Sleeper..(big Dune fan)

Originally posted by forestlady

Oh you mean like Enron? BTW, any money you earn from your pension IS your money and it IS earned. You worked for it, you put money into your pension, it was invested and so you earned it, it's not a hand out.

I agree, forestlady.

Pensions are actually 'deferred compensation'. For those corporations that try to get out of paying their employees their rightfully earned pensions - they are actually stealing the employee's deferred compensation.

Of course in the spirit of American capitalism, they have a government-sponsored insurance organization that covers their butts when they do this - it's called the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.



Always,
Shawnna

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Reexaming some special tax breaks oil companies receive might be something I'd agree with, but iimposing new "windfall profits" taxes etc. is a really bad idea and unfair to these large corporations that need to be large to compete.

I’m all for Pelosi and company going after his Holiness Hugo Chaves’ oil companies, but I have a feeling she will cut him a break

Originally posted by Shawnna

However, I think the bigger issue is the widening gap between corporate executive and worker compensation. Perhaps if those running these corporations had a sense of service, there wouldn't be any impetus for any government intervention whatsoever.

What anyone here in the US makes is really no ones business if they made it legally. If you hired someone to be over your company as CEO, who is to tell you other than the board of directors what you pay them?

And how do we know that those fat cats are not plowing millions into charities? Not everyone makes public their donations.

And Enron, well if millions of ordinary people who held the stock didn’t panic and sell it Enron would still be here today.

People seem to want to blame a few top dogs, because that makes them feel better, the fact is panic and a large dose of government over-regulation is what brought down Enron.

Originally posted by sleeper
And Enron, well if millions of ordinary people who held the stock didn’t panic and sell it Enron would still be here today.

People seem to want to blame a few top dogs, because that makes them feel better, the fact is panic and a large dose of government over-regulation is what brought down Enron.

So with respect to Enron - I want to be sure I understand what you're saying.

It isn't the corrupt Enron Executives that caused Enron to collapse, it is the "ordinary people who sold their Enron stock" when it was clear their ship had been pirated that are to blame????

So to take your position one step further, Jeffrey Skilling should be able to roam free and bring his unforuntately not-so-unique corporate ethics to some other company and all of the "ordinary people" who sold their Enron stock should be sent to prison for bringing the company down???

You may want to brush up a bit on exactly what was involved in Enron, sleeper. Here's a good place to start..



Deny Ignorance - remember?

Always,
Shawnna

Originally posted by forestlady
, any money you earn from your pension IS your money and it IS earned. You worked for it, you put money into your pension, it was invested and so you earned it, it's not a hand out.

Most pension are matched by the companies.

But it makes no difference whose money it is, most pensions are based on the health of the companies, if they go broke the money is gone and it doesn’t belong to anyone anymore.

Perhaps you can convince Pelosi and company to propose legislation to where you can take your pension money home and hide it under a mattress, but that would not be wise someone might steal it, but even if it wasn’t stolen it wouldn’t grow or compound, like it would if it were held in a company stock, in effect inflation would eat it up.

Money will only grow in profitable companies; pensions will only grow in profitable companies.

We pay big bucks to CEOs because some of them are good at making companies profitable.

We don’t pay big bucks to CEOs because they are good looking; they have to earn what they are paid.

Take away the good CEOs and all pension funds will evaporate, and so will America.

Well, I was living in California at the time of Enron's collapse. I was paying $300 a month for heating a small little cottage. I knwe people with $600 and $700 dollar a month utility bills. That was about a 300% increase in price and it all happened when Enron took over.

Not to mention the massive corruption that was part of Enron. Don't blame the victim here, Sleeper.

Originally posted by Shawnna

However, I think the bigger issue is the widening gap between corporate executive and worker compensation. Perhaps if those running these corporations had a sense of service, there wouldn't be any impetus for any government intervention whatsoever.

I have to agree with Shawnna here 100%. Most of us who have worked within a top-heavy company run by corporate fat-cats whose sole intent is to increase revenue (and win the coveted stock-options each quarter) know what is going on.

Corporate executives receive stock options - essentially free money - they buy company stock for pennies on the dollar, and many of them immediately resell those stocks, pay the taxes, and walk away with millions in their pocket. The company does not even need to report this as part of corporate pay.

Meanwhile, the company sends out emails company-wide that the company is "suffering" financially, people need to buckle down and avoid travel expenses....there's a temporary "blackout" on training....use your pens sparingly, those office supplies are aweful expensive folks.

Meanwhile...they jet from facility to facility, sleep in 5 star hotels and dine at the finest restaurants.

The gap is certainly growing...there's no doubt about that. It is no longer about the people who make up a company - it is no longer even about the company. It is about being born into the right family, getting into the finest schools thanks to the right family name....being placed at the top of a corporation and receiving income and benefits that far exceed the demands of the job. If you really think that CEO's responsibility requires a paycheck in the multi-million range - you don't really know what a CEO does, and how much responsibility is deligated to the folk beneath him.

The gap between rich and poor, not only in corporations but in the country overall - is widening and it's a sickening thing to watch...it truly is. The only hope we have is that the thieving criminals who block their employees from selling company stock while they sell out - are locked up for the rest of their lives. In my mind, that punishment isn't even harsh enough to equal the crime...but it's the best we can do in a civilized society.

Hopefully the board of directors for each corporation (even though they are made of of CEO fat-cats from other corporations who scratch eachothers' backs) might smarten up and realize they won't get away with it any longer.

If you want a truly wise perspective on the matter - read "Yertle the Turtle" by Dr. Seuss. The man is a genius.

-Ry



[edit on 27-12-2006 by rdube02]

Originally posted by Shawnna
So with respect to Enron - I want to be sure I understand what you're saying.

You and others give Skilling way to much credit, Enron was not brought down by one man or even a hand full of men, it fell because everyone panicked and sold the stock.

Hundreds of companies have problems, and most don’t nose dive. The panic was fed by the media and made worst by government bureaucrats that swarmed in like a plague---they didn’t help they only fanned the flames, heck I would have sold the stock too had I owned any.

The fall of Enron - as told by Dr. Seuss. (Edited for space)

Yertle the Turtle
by Dr. Seuss

----

On the far-away island of Sala-ma-Sond,
Yertle the Turtle was king of the pond.
A nice little pond. It was clean. It was neat.
The water was warm. There was plenty to eat.
The turtles had everything turtles might need.
And they were all happy. Quite happy indeed.

They were... untill Yertle, the king of them all,
Decided the kingdom he ruled was too small.
"I'm ruler", said Yertle, "of all that I see.
But I don't see enough. That's the trouble with me.

(snip...)

So Yertle, the Turtle King, lifted his hand
And Yertle, the Turtle King, gave a command.
He ordered nine turtles to swim to his stone
And, using these turtles, he built a new throne.
He made each turtle stand on another one's back
And he piled them all up in a nine-turtle stack.
And then Yertle climbed up. He sat down on the pile.
What a wonderful view! He could see 'most a mile!
"All mine!" Yertle cried. "Oh, the things I now rule!

(snip...)

And all through the morning, he sat up there high
Saying over and over, "A great king am I!"
Until 'long about noon. Then he heard a faint sigh.
"What's that?" snapped the king
And he looked down the stack.
And he saw, at the bottom, a turtle named Mack.
Just a part of his throne. And this plain little turtle
Looked up and he said, "Beg your pardon, King Yertle.
I've pains in my back and my shoulders and knees.
How long must we stand here, Your Majesty, please?"
"SILENCE!" the King of the Turtles barked back.
"I'm king, and you're only a turtle named Mack."
"You stay in your place while I sit here and rule.
I'm the king of a cow! And I'm the king of a mule!
I'm the king of a house! And a bush! And a cat!
But that isn't all. I'll do better than that!

My throne shall be higher!" his royal voice thundered,
"So pile up more turtles! I want 'bout two hundred!"
"Turtles! More turtles!" he bellowed and brayed.

(snip...)

Then again, from below, in the great heavy stack,
Came a groan from that plain little turtle named Mack.
"Your Majesty, please... I don't like to complain,
But down here below, we are feeling great pain.
I know, up on top you are seeing great sights,
But down here at the bottom we, too, should have rights.
We turtles can't stand it. Our shells will all crack!
Besides, we need food. We are starving!" groaned Mack.

"You hush up your mouth!" howled the mighty King Yertle.
"You've no right to talk to the world's highest turtle.
I rule from the clouds! Over land! Over sea!
There's nothing, no, NOTHING, that's higher than me!"

(snip...)

I'll build my throne higher! I can and I will!
I'll call some more turtles. I'll stack 'em to heaven!
I need 'bout five thousand, six hundred and seven!"

But, as Yertle, the Turtle King, lifted his hand
And started to order and give the command,
That plain little turtle below in the stack,
That plain little turtle whose name was just Mack,
Decided he'd taken enough. And he had.
And that plain little lad got a bit mad.
And that plain little Mack did a plain little thing.
He burped!
And his burp shook the throne of the king!

And Yertle the Turtle, the king of the trees,
The king of the air and the birds and the bees,
The king of a house and a cow and a mule...
Well, that was the end of the Turtle King's rule!
For Yertle, the King of all Sala-ma-Sond,
Fell off his high throne and fell Plunk! in the pond!

And today the great Yertle, that Marvelous he,
Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see.
And the turtles, of course... all the turtles are free
As turtles and, maybe, all creatures should be.

-----

-Ry

Originally posted by forestlady
Well, I was living in California at the time of Enron's collapse. I was paying $300 a month for heating a small little cottage. I knwe people with $600 and $700 dollar a month utility bills. That was about a 300% increase in price and it all happened when Enron took over.

I live in the Midwest and we didn't have Enron, but we had and continue to have those high utility bills.

The fault lies with the left, who did their best to stop cheep nuclear energy back in the sixties. Nearly every country in Europe uses nuclear plants to power their cities, yet here in the most advanced country in the world we still burn coal and natural gas---is that asinine or what?

Now we have to pay through the nose for our power, thanks to the Hollywood left propaganda machine that scared Americans away from nuclear power plants.

Well said, Ry! Perfect, in fact.

Another fitting phrase could be.....

What goes around, comes around.

I wonder if Jeffrey Skilling and others ever heard that phrase?

And given where Ken Lay no doubt is now - he's well aware of meaning of this little phrase.



Always,
Shawnna

Originally posted by sleeper
Now we have to pay through the nose for our power, thanks to the Hollywood left propaganda machine that scared Americans away from nuclear power plants.

Ah yes - it is the "left" who are to blame.

Tell that to the generations of people who lived near Chernobyl.

Originally posted by rdube02
The fall of Enron - as told by Dr. Seuss. (Edited for space)

Yertle the Turtle
by Dr. Seuss

I fully agree the left lives in a fantasy world.

Granted, it would be nice, but unfortunately we live in this world and things don't away rhyme like they do in Dr. Seuss---